John 10:16

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Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#31 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

Dajo1 wrote:
Prophecy
Zech 8:23
23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days shall ten men take hold, out of all languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard [that] God is with you.
In view of the fact that (just as is the case also in John 10:16) a kind of reunification is once again being considered here in this prophecy of Zechariah, I was wondering if you might have some thoughts to share on the setting or context that these words are addressing. Was there perhaps a key change in circumstances that would suddenly allow for a reunion of what is represented here by "ten men out of all languages of the nations" with what in turn is represented by the "Jews"? If so what exactly was it that changed, and would this be reflected also in the case of the spiritual nation Jesus is speaking of at John 10:16?

With that said, I was curious if you found it interesting or noteworthy that once again we find this "all the nations" entity being associated with the number ten, ("ten tribes"? or otherwise what they were used to represent or illustrate/foreshadow in the case of true Christianity?) just as is the case throughout both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.


But wait a minute! Isn't the line or division between a gentile and a Samaritan already beginning to appear rather blurry? Might this begin to seem EVEN MORE confusing when we bear in mind that the term Samaritan was simply another way of saying—Israelite? But if all this is not already confusing enough, don't most people on this earth seem to imagine that an Israelite and a Jew is the same thing? And if a gentile is the same thing as an Israelite, wouldn't this mean it is also the same as a Jew? In fact an Israelite was never referred to as a Samaritan until a division occurred that separated the southern two tribal areas from the northern ten tribes. And for that matter the Judeans were always referred to as Israelites before this separation occurred. So what really is the difference then between a gentile and a Samaritan, or even a Samaritan and an Israelite? And if a Jew was simply an Israelite before this separation, what really is the difference between a Jew and an Israelite?

Of course we already know at least some of the answers to questions like this. But can we at least begin to better appreciate that we need to start ignoring or tuning out all the relentless chatter and rhetoric and actually start paying closer attention to the scriptures? What really are the distinctions between all these entities even in the case of FLESHLY Israel, and how might a key change in circumstances suddenly impact or affect these distinctions or divisions? What exactly IS this key change, and how exactly would it either divide or reunite these three entities?
Fulfillment
Acts 13:47,48
47 For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, 'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, That you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Is this account speaking of the Jews serving as a "light for the gentiles," or is it the Israelites that would serve as this light? Or would this perhaps apply to both Jews and Israelites? How would we use the scriptures to support our answer to this question regardless of what it might be? Wouldn't it be important for us to know?

1 Cor 14:24,25
4 But if all prophesy, and there come in one unbelieving or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed

Ephesians 2:11-15 basically explains them being one in Christ
We realize of course that the spiritual shepherds in the first century who were writing and speaking these words commonly identified themselves specifically as spiritual Jews. So would this perhaps mean that these "unbelieving or unlearned" ones they are speaking of here would qualify as gentiles or even Samaritans/Israelites? Now if these same people BEGIN to learn and believe, and by extension "become one in Christ" as you say, would this now qualify them as spiritual Samaritans, spiritual Israelites, or spiritual Jews? Which one would it be if any, and how would you establish your position scripturally. Once again, wouldn't this be rather critical for us to understand, and particularly if we are to actually begin grasping scriptures like Zechariah 8:23 or John 10:16?

I hope you understand David that I'm not expecting or demanding an answer from you on all these questions. For the moment all I'm trying to do is help people appreciate that scriptural matters like this suddenly appear rather different when we actually and finally begin to pay heed to scriptures like Romans 12:1 and Acts 17:11. We are CONSTANTLY being bombarded with false programming that is designed to prevent us from truly thinking these things through. If we can at least begin to humbly acknowledge that we DO NOT understand these things, then we might actually begin tuning out the constant chatter and finally start relying on things like prayer and the scriptures themselves.

So please patiently bear with me here and allow me to pose these questions once again to you or any that would like to share in this discussion; and once again let's endeavor to remain focused primarily for now on ancient FLESHLY Israel in an effort to keep things more simple and concise:


What exactly do the scriptures reveal as to the distinction or difference between a Jew and an Israelite, and what exactly was it that divided them? What is the difference if any between an Israelite and a Samaritan? What was the difference if any between a Samaritan and a gentile?

If we can pinpoint the specific identity of these three entities as well as what it was that created the divide between them, would this not in turn help us to identify what would reunite them, and by extension come to a better understanding of accounts like John 10:16 or even Zechariah 8:23?

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#32 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

Thank you again for your input here Stranger.

Stranger wrote:
No, I don't remember reading about any inaugural ceremonies for Jeroboam, but I also can't recall reading about A-hi'jah being a false prophet either. (1Ki 11:31)
This raises questions about your statement above.

1) Was A-hi'jah a prophet of Jehovah?
We have every indication that Ahijah was a true prophet of Jehovah.
2) @ (1Ki 11:31), Was this an anointing or an appointing?
Just as clearly indicated in this same account, the event recorded here was neither an anointing NOR an appointing, but rather simply a command that carried tremendous meaning or prophetic/symbolic significance for its later antitypical fulfillment in true Christianity.



From my perspective at least, in view of the fact that at this point in time the northern ten tribes are pictured not only as no longer recognizing the kingly/priestly theocratic power and authority that was ALWAYS represented by the southern two tribes, (Ge 49:8-12) but also even as completely separated from it, the questions that scriptures like 1 Kings 11:31 should be prompting in us might be the following:


Why exactly is Jehovah still ENGAGING and INTERACTING with Samaria or Israel at this point in time, or even issuing commands to them in the first place? You see since it is actually the humble and obedient ACCEPTANCE of this theocratic power and authority that QUALIFIES humans as Israelites in the first place, (whether fleshly or spiritual), why does Jehovah even still REFER to them as Israel at this point? (Ga 6:16) Would there soon come a point in which Jehovah would NO LONGER recognize them as Israel, and if so what exactly would change his perspective on this? How might this same rather strange phenomenon play out later in the case of the spiritual nation it was designed to prophetically foreshadow and illustrate? How might the answers to these questions be connected to what is being conveyed in accounts like John 10:16?

Would you or anyone perhaps have some thoughts or scriptures you would like to share in connection with these questions?

Agape love;
Sol

Dajo1
Posts: 325
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#33 Post by Dajo1 » 6 months ago

Hello Sol,

you ask me 20+ questions.
These ones:

I simply do not know the exact answer to them. I have answered in Bold

Was there perhaps a key change in circumstances that would suddenly allow for a reunion of what is represented here by "ten men out of all languages of the nations" with what in turn is represented by the "Jews"? Jer 31:31

If so what exactly was it that changed, and would this be reflected also in the case of the spiritual nation Jesus is speaking of at John 10:16?
The Messiah came to earth and changed the arrangement

I was curious if you found it interesting or noteworthy that once again we find this "all the nations" entity being associated with the number ten, ("ten tribes"? or otherwise what they were used to represent or illustrate/foreshadow in the case of true Christianity? It is interesting

Isn't the line or division between a gentile and a Samaritan already beginning to appear rather blurry? I guess so.
Might this begin to seem EVEN MORE confusing when we bear in mind that the term Samaritan was simply another way of saying—Israelite? Not necessarily

But can we at least begin to better appreciate that we need to start ignoring or tuning out all the relentless chatter and rhetoric and actually start paying closer attention to the scriptures? That is a really good idea.

don't most people on this earth seem to imagine that an Israelite and a Jew is the same thing? That's probably a true statement.

And if a gentile is the same thing as an Israelite, wouldn't this mean it is also the same as a Jew? Gal 3:28

Is this account speaking of the Jews serving as a "light for the gentiles," or is it the Israelites that would serve as this light?
Or would this perhaps apply to both Jews and Israelites? Jesus did say Christians would be that. Matt 5:14

How would we use the scriptures to support our answer to this question regardless of what it might be?
Wouldn't it be important for us to know? We would use scriptures we have knowledge of.

And if a Jew was simply an Israelite before this separation, what really is the difference between a Jew and an Israelite?
All Jews are Israelite's, not all Isralites are Jews..?

So would this perhaps mean that these "unbelieving or unlearned" ones they are speaking of here would qualify as gentiles or even Samaritans/Israelites?
..their is neither Jew nor Greek ..

Now if these same people BEGIN to learn and believe, and by extension "become one in Christ" as you say, would this now qualify them as spiritual Samaritans, spiritual Israelites, or spiritual Jews? I think they would be brothers and sisters of Jesus and sons of God

Once again, wouldn't this be rather critical for us to understand, and particularly if we are to actually begin grasping scriptures like Zechariah 8:23 or John 10:16?
Yes, that's what we are doing here - gaining understanding

Which one would it be if any, and how would you establish your position scripturally.
by "making sure of all things"

What exactly do the scriptures reveal as to the distinction or difference between a Jew and an Israelite, and what exactly was it that divided them?
You know what? I don't exactly know exactly how that works. (to be precise!)

What is the difference if any between an Israelite and a Samaritan?
..There is neither Jew nor Greek..

What was the difference if any between a Samaritan and a gentile? They didn't get along with each other. Many centuries of differences

If we can pinpoint the specific identity of these three entities as well as what it was that created the divide between them, would this not in turn help us to identify
what would reunite them, and by extension come to a better understanding of accounts like John 10:16 or even Zechariah 8:23?
Christ reunites. We Know this.

What really are the distinctions between all these entities even in the case of FLESHLY Israel, and
how might a key change in circumstances suddenly impact or affect these distinctions or divisions? It did. Jesus Christ arrived.

What exactly IS this key change, and how exactly would it either divide or reunite these three entities?
What you might explain as a Key change, someone else might say they have the Key change more exactly. This is EXACTLY how differences occur.

I thank you for you comments, Sol. you are doing your best I feel, to explain things and your viewpoint. Please remember that is what it is. If I was in you shoes, I would no doubt, also acquire the ability to see entities as clearly as you do.

Rest well
D.

Stranger
Posts: 1733
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#34 Post by Stranger » 6 months ago

Get out of her wrote:
6 months ago
Would you or anyone perhaps have some thoughts or scriptures you would like to share in connection with these questions?

HI Sol, as long as the LORD liveth I will have thoughts and scriptures, I can promise you that.
Get out of her wrote:
6 months ago
Why exactly is Jehovah still ENGAGING and INTERACTING with Samaria or Israel at this point in time, or even issuing commands to them in the first place? You see since it is actually the humble and obedient ACCEPTANCE of this theocratic power and authority that QUALIFIES humans as Israelites in the first place, (whether fleshly or spiritual), why does Jehovah even still REFER to them as Israel at this point?
Sol, you talk about "this point in time and at this point", but you left it open or unclear when exactly your talking about so let me start by giving you two scriptures without an expiration date (1Chr 16:15) compare (2Sam 23:5) as to why exactly the God of Israel engages and interacts.

I don't want to preach to you Sol, that's what Jesus does to his anointed in His anointed entity at "this point in time" (present day). (Jn 10:16)




Stranger, (Matt 8:11)= the only reunion I want to attend.

Get out of her
Posts: 888
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#35 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

Thank you again David for your comments and input.


Dajo1 wrote:
Was there perhaps a key change in circumstances that would suddenly allow for a reunion of what is represented here by "ten men out of all languages of the nations" with what in turn is represented by the "Jews"? Jer 31:31


“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,…"
I hope you don't mind I took the liberty of highlighting the word—covenant in your reply.

You were absolutely correct (David) to choose a scripture like Jeremiah 31:31 to make a reply to the above question, and I would like to take some time to explain exactly why this is the case. In fact since this scripturally verifiable position that you just took here is absolutely pivotal to this discussion of John 10:16: in an effort to continue keeping my posts relatively simple and concise I will be focusing strictly on this initial reply of yours for now.

You see despite the fact that at the time this prophecy was written even the fleshly Mosaic Law covenant was to be both broken and renewed an additional three times before this "NEW covenant" would emerge that Jeremiah is speaking of, nevertheless we can easily discern from the specific choice of words here in this prophecy that Jehovah is once again ultimately directing our attention primarily to the "SUBSTANCE" of what fleshly Israel was prophetically pointing to all along in an illustrative manner in the first place. (Lu 22:20) (He 8:13 10:1)

Rest assured it was absolutely no coincidence that the setting being addressed here in Jeremiah 31 was in one of the four foretold time frames or occasions in the setting of foreign "captivity" and "exile" in which the holy covenant that established FLESHLY Israel had been broken by spiritual unfaithfulness or adultery ("prostitution" or "harlotry") on the part of the people it had been established with. (Isa 1:21)

These words of Jeremiah were evidently uttered around the year 580 BC, and scriptural accounts like Daniel Chapter 5 help us to understand that in this case the foreign host king that had been serving as Jehovah's primary "anointed shepherd" around that time was actually King Belshazzar of Babylon. (Da 5:1-6) (Isa 44:28 45:1) By comparing scriptures like this to accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 we can discern that Belshazzar's father NebuchadRezzar had actually served as the FIRST of these foretold "servants" of Jehovah who would fill the role of the "king of the North" in this setting of the "times of the nations" or what we also refer to as the "gentile times." (Lu 21:24) (Jer 43:10) As far as the first of these foretold "northern kings" that would rebelliously take the lead in breaking the "holy covenant" by "leading" like minded ones among Jehovah's shepherding fold "into apostasy" however, King Belshazzar would obviously be the first of the "seven" to fulfill this portion of the prophecy. (Da 4:23, 32 11:32)

Yes it is a BROKEN HOLY COVENANT between Jehovah and mankind that is ALWAYS responsible NOT ONLY for a subsequent division between what is represented by the Jews and the Israelites or what NOW qualify more specifically as "Samaritans," (until THEY TOO become guilty of "apostasy" at this same level), but more importantly a division between Jehovah himself and what now WAS his nation or kingdom. The moment we understand this is the very same moment we are in a position to grasp that it is the RENEWAL or RE-ESTABLISHMENT of this same covenant that now begins to REUNITE or mend these severed theocratic relations.

Rest assured it was no coincidence that Jesus uttered the words of John 10:16 essentially at the very moment in which this broken holy covenant was being renewed or restored for the fifth of the "seven" foretold "times" it would occur in the setting of foreign captivity and exile of Jehovah's people. (Lu 22:29) (Da 4:23, 32) While these seven spiritually adulterous violations of the covenant would comprise seven spiritual DEATHS of Jehovah's nation, the RENEWALS of this covenant on the other hand would qualify as "seven" spiritual "BIRTHS." (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8) (Re 12:5)

Yes it's important for us to understand that when these covenants are broken, Jehovah's nation technically does not even EXIST on the earth! This is precisely the reason that another "birth" or "coming" of the kingdom is now required in the first place. (Like the manifestation we are awaiting even at this moment?)

In other words, in a setting of a broken kingdom covenant, until the moment that Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses" arrive on the earth again to begin "spying out the land" or otherwise perform yet another "inspection" of the spirit anointed "virgins" and at least SOME of them begin to "listen" to them, EVEN JEWS do not exist on the earth! (Re 11:3) (Jos 2:1) (Lu 19:44) (Hag 1:12-14) You see when Jesus spoke the words of John 10:16 or for that matter even John 4:22, at least a FEW people on the earth had indeed begun to both "listen" and pay heed to what he and John the Baptist had to say. By extension Jehovah's "HOUSE" or "temple" had once again begun to be rebuilt. (Hag 1:2, 8, 12, 14) Compare (1 Cor 3:16) While the theocratic power and authority this "temple" or "sanctuary" represented would of course not be recognized by Jehovah as being COMPLETED until it would be "inaugurated with blood" as always, nonetheless it actually had begun to once again at least EXIST at the time Jesus spoke these words. (He 9:16-18)

However to better understand exactly where the dividing lines would in the MEANTIME continue to exist between what is NOW identified as "Jews, Samaritans and gentiles" as opposed to simply Israel, (whether fleshly or spiritual), or even "other sheep which are not of this fold" of the "little flock" of SPIRITUAL Jews Jesus is now speaking to here in John 10, let's begin by getting back to accounts like Jeremiah 31. (Lu 12:32) I will pick up the discussion here at a later time to help avoid getting overly wordy.

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#36 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

Thanks again for your input on this topic Stranger.

Stranger wrote:

Sol, you talk about "this point in time and at this point", but you left it open or unclear when exactly your talking about so let me start by giving you two scriptures without an expiration date (1Chr 16:15) compare (2Sam 23:5) as to why exactly the God of Israel engages and interacts.



If you were to take a closer look at the sentence I had written immediately prior to the one you refer to here, you will see that I had identified this "point in time" as that of when what is represented by Israel or Samaria would exist in a condition in which it has rejected the theocratic kingly/priestly authority that was always represented by the southern two tribes. In fact it was represented also as having already fallen into idolatry under the new leadership of Jeroboam.


When we consider accounts like 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 along with the fact that there would come times after the renewal of the kingdom covenant that occurred in 33 CE in which the "apostasy" involved in the subsequent BREAKING of this covenant would continue to occur until the "last trumpet" when this "incorruptibility" of the appointed shepherding fold would finally prevent this spiritual unfaithfulness from continuing, we are helped to understand that these scriptures you cited would actually experience their fulfillment with the onset of the long anticipated Millennial Reign. (2 Th 2:1-4)

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#37 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago



31 "Look! There are days coming, is the utterance of Jehovah, and I will conclude with the house of Israel AND the house of Judah a NEW covenant; 32 NOT one like the covenant I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of EGYPT, which covenant of mine they themselves BROKE although I myself HAD HUSBANDLY OWNERSHIP of them, is the utterance of Jehovah.
33 For this is the covenant that I will conclude with the house of Israel in those days, is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law WITHIN THEM, and IN THEIR HEART I shall write it. And I WILL BECOME their God, and they WILL BECOME my people." (Jer 31:31-33)


Particularly upon considering the subsequent verses of 32 and 33 of this 31st chapter of Jeremiah as well as the words I highlighted in all three of these verses, is it not becoming all the more evident that David hit the proverbial nail on the head when he produced this scripture as an answer to my question of what change in circumstances also in the early part of the first century that suddenly allowed for a reunion of the two sheepfolds mentioned in accounts like John 10:16? With that said I would ask the brothers and sisters to please consider the following question:

Would this be an example of us offering our own personal viewpoint or opinion on a scriptural question, or would it not rather be an example of allowing Jehovah to interpret the sayings of his own word or even visions just as Genesis 40:8 says he does?

Nevertheless when we closely examine the specific choice of words that were used here in verse 32 and 33 of Jeremiah 31, does it not become rather clear that Jehovah is primarily directing our attention to the holy covenants that would begin to be formed with the SPIRITUAL manifestation of Israel? Obviously the covenant that would be renewed some four or five decades after this prophecy of Jeremiah was uttered would still be the Mosaic Law covenant as opposed to one identified as the "law of love." This "NEW" law or even covenant would by contrast be "written in their heart" and actually qualify now as the "law's FULFILLMENT." (Ro 13:10) Compare (Mt 5:17) But here is yet another thing that facts such as this might make us ponder:

When we bear in mind that these four spiritual deaths and rebirths of Jehovah's nation that would occur in connection with these broken and subsequently renewed FLESHLY covenants were designed primarily to prophetically illustrate what would later occur with true Christianity, shouldn't we be paying close attention also to the prophetic PATTERNS being depicted here?

For example: If there was to be THREE occasions in which this fleshly covenant would be established and subsequently broken by Jehovah's people in the setting of foreign captivity and exile, or otherwise in connection with spirit anointed shepherds of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece respectively, followed by a FOURTH "birth" or "coming" that would qualify as "something DIFFERENT from all the rest," even something "UNUSUALLY strong," wouldn't we have reason to understand that this same prophetic pattern would be repeated in the case of true Christianity? Compare (Lu 13:6-9) (Da 7:7) (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Jer 43:10) In fact, could it perhaps be the case that one of the ways in which the final fourth manifestation of spiritual Israel (true Christianity) could be described as "different from all the rest" would be for the reason that it would NOT unfold in the setting of the "times of the nations"? (Lu 21:24) Might it also be "different" or even "unusually strong" in the sense that all of its appointed shepherds would now be "incorruptible and immortal"? (1 Cor 15:51-53) In other words, this fourth or final "coming of the kingdom" would essentially now be PERMANENT just as the illustration there in Luke 13:6-9 suggests.

In this case however we are focusing primarily on the way in which the forming and subsequent breaking of these holy covenants are directly connected to the uniting and subsequent dividing of what is being represented with terms like Jews and Samaritans or the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Particularly when we COMPARE accounts such as here in Jeremiah with John 10:16, we begin to realize that John 10:16 is intricately tied into the issue of these holy covenants. However when we remember that these covenants are actually formed between mankind and JEHOVAH as opposed to Judea and Samaria, we are in a position to understand that the division or separation being considered in accounts like John 10:16 is largely NOT ABOUT one between Jews, Samaritans and gentiles, but rather much more about ALL of these entities suddenly finding themselves alienated to some degree or other from JEHOVAH. This is much more about whether or not (as Jeremiah puts it here) Jehovah has "HUSBANDLY OWNERSHIP of them." Yes this covenant or even marriage contract and its current standing with Jehovah is exactly what determines whether or not he HAS or otherwise "HAD" this "husbandly ownership."

Now since the scriptures make it clear that assigning of the NAME Israel or the assigning of ANY name has always represented the taking of ownership of the named, wouldn't this first of all raise the following questions?

When this husbandly ownership is lost or forfeited with a broken covenant or marriage contract, does Israel and by extension Israelites even still exist? If these people no longer BELONG to Jehovah, then who do they now belong to? If the very NAME Israel literally means-contender or even ruler with God, a name Jacob received when engaging strenuously with Jehovah's angel and receiving divine blessings from him, then would this name even still APPLY when what WAS Jehovah's people experience a "divorce" from him? (Isa 50:1) (Jer 3:8) The contemplating of these questions might in turn lead to yet some more rather provocative ones:

Why would God's nation or kingdom (true Christianity or SPIRITUAL Israel in OUR case) EVER need to "come" or experience a "birth" with a renewed marriage covenant if it were ALREADY HERE? If on the other hand neither Judea NOR Samaria (or more specifically what they represent) no longer even EXIST on the earth, then why would any of us continue to insist that CHRISTIANITY still exists on the earth? Since the word Christianity is simply another way of identifying spiritual Israel, shouldn't we not rather be acknowledging that only FALSE Christianity currently exists on the earth?

Before we continue with this discussion, would anyone care to comment on these questions? You see the scriptural answers to them will actually go a long way in helping us understand what is being considered in accounts like John 10:16. This might become all the more apparent when we notice that these words "WILL BECOME" here in Jeremiah 31:33 are ALSO found in John 10:16. You see just as is ALWAYS the case when a kingdom covenant is broken and we are eagerly anticipating another "coming of the kingdom, people "WILL BECOME" spiritual Israelites" or "Christians" when that nation once again ACTUALLY EXISTS on the earth.

Nevertheless what we no doubt would want to focus on next would be the prophetic dramas that deal with exactly what would be giving birth to the creation of these separate kingdoms of Judea and Samaria and whatever reference scriptures that would serve to specifically identify the distinctions in the sheepfolds of the subsequent spiritual nation they are prophetically representing or symbolically foreshadowing. Yes we already realize it is a broken covenant that is responsible for this division, but once again do we really understand the distinctions being represented here and in turn how these divisions between these two sheepfolds mentioned in John 10:16 would in some sense be eliminated with a restored covenant?

To begin getting a better grasp on these issues we might consider two additional questions:

Does the evidence suggest that after the kingdom covenant was inaugurated with blood or otherwise put into full effect yet again in 33 CE that there were NO LONGER Jews on the earth, but only spiritual Israelites? Would the answer to this question mean that BEFORE the division of Israel that occurred after the death of King Solomon, there actually were no Jews in Israel?

Would anyone care to comment on these questions before I continue?




Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#38 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

Dajo1 replies to questions in bold:
What exactly do the scriptures reveal as to the distinction or difference between a Jew and an Israelite, and what exactly was it that divided them?

You know what? I don't exactly know exactly how that works. (to be precise!)


Isn't the line or division between a gentile and a Samaritan already beginning to appear rather blurry?

I guess so.


Might this begin to seem EVEN MORE confusing when we bear in mind that the term Samaritan was simply another way of saying—Israelite?

Not necessarily
It occurs to me that as per usual I might be getting too wordy again in my efforts to demonstrate what the scriptures actually teach on this subject. So for the moment I have decided to simply focus on these three questions and produce the most concise scriptural answers possible. Nevertheless I hope that by now we can at least begin to better appreciate that as is actually true with ANY scriptural issue, while in some sense they are relatively simple, in another they are precisely what ones such as the Apostle Paul describes in accounts like Romans 11:33.

Just as illustrated or even demonstrated for us in accounts like Daniel 2:17-19 or Genesis 40:8, ultimately it is only Jehovah himself that reveals the accurate understanding of his "hidden treasures" or "sacred secrets." (Pr 2:4) (1 Cor 4:1) The way it actually works is that once you truly begin to understand these things; it suddenly becomes much easier to begin demonstrating them scripturally. Commensurately it also becomes rather easy to begin using the scriptures to prove that if we were merely to even BEGIN truly pondering the teachings on these topics that are CONSTANTLY programmed into us, they immediately start falling apart. (De 32:29) (1 Ti 4:15) (Mt 15:9)

This post will simply be producing the short answers to these three questions. The post that follows will be focusing more on elaborating and explaining these answers while at the same time scripturally establishing their voracity.



So what exactly is the difference between a Jew and a Samaritan, or what is also referred to in the scriptures as an Israelite?


The term Jew more specifically points to the spirit anointed AND theocratically APPOINTED shepherding fold of Israel, whether fleshly or spiritual. A Jew represents and even comprises the actual theocratic kingly/priestly AUTHORITY and POWER of Jehovah's kingdom, and by extension the nation itself.

David was absolutely correct when he suggested that while all Jews are Israelites not all Israelites are Jews. It should be extremely obvious to us that not everyone who chooses to be a servant or worshiper of Jehovah will be a king and a priest, or even a Judge. The vast majority of Israelites (whether fleshly or spiritual) will comprise the SHEEP of this theocratic shepherding fold, or otherwise the CITIZENSHIP of Jehovah's kingdom.

So would this mean then that in some sense there was ALWAYS a distinction or even division in Israel even PRIOR to the separation that occurred after the death of King Solomon? Well in THIS sense it should be obvious to us that the answer would be YES.


What is the difference if any between an Israelite and a Samaritan?


While both of these entities were referred to in the scriptures regularly as Israel, there actually is a distinction between the two. The term Samaritan MORE SPECIFICALLY points to Israel in a setting or context in which it has become isolated or alienated from the EARTHLY "camp" of the "Shulammite," or otherwise no longer has any HUMAN or EARTHLY shepherds in its midst that qualify as GENUINE or LEGITIMATE. (Song 6:13)


What is the difference between a Samaritan and a gentile?


Regardless of whether one qualifies as a Jew, Israelite OR a Samaritan, ALL of these "BECOME" gentiles (whether literally OR spiritually) the moment they become isolated or alienated from the HEAVENLY "camp" of the "Shulammite" with a broken kingdom covenant. This is a level of spiritual unfaithfulness that reaches the point in which a NEW formal contract is established between what now WAS Jehovah's nation (or at least PEOPLE/SHEEP in the case of the Samaritans) and satan"s political/religious system of things. Instead of a "faithful town" that WAS comprised of an alliance between Jehovah, an anointed foreign host king and what WAS a TRUE prophet, we are now dealing with an entity identified as a spiritual "prostitute" which is comprised of an alliance between the "dragon, a "WILD beast," and what now qualifies as a "FALSE prophet." (Re 16:13, 19) (Isa 1:21 44:28, 45:1) What WAS Jehovah's nation now "has no king but Caesar" whether literally or figuratively. (Joh 19:15)

It is imperative we understand that it is ALWAYS a kingdom covenant in good standing with Jehovah that QUALIFIES Israel as such. When the theocratic nation no longer even exists or otherwise we find ourselves once again eagerly anticipating the NEXT foretold "coming of the kingdom," neither do Jews NOR Israelites. (Christians in our case) Mankind would now once again find themselves in a position in which they are in dire need of "BECOMING" either a part of Jehovah's "flock" OR a portion of his "shepherding" fold. (Joh 10:16) (Jer 31:31-33)

The prophetic pattern involved with these "seven" foretold spiritual deaths and rebirths of the theocratic nation however makes it rather clear that immediately prior to the NEXT foretold manifestation of the kingdom, there is in fact a way in which a small and repentant remnant of what WAS Israel can and WOULD in fact qualify specifically as Jews even while still technically existing in a setting of a broken kingdom covenant. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (2 Ki 5:14) Before we continue, would anyone like to share a scripture or two that would establish exactly how this is accomplished?

Agape love;
Sol

Dajo1
Posts: 325
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#39 Post by Dajo1 » 6 months ago

Hello Sol,

You said:
"It occurs to me that as per usual I might be getting too wordy again in my efforts to demonstrate what the scriptures actually teach on this subject."

Please consider pondering that thought...

Thanks.
D.

Get out of her
Posts: 888
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#40 Post by Get out of her » 6 months ago

As always I appreciated your input David. In an effort to keep things hopefully even more simple and concise I thought that perhaps it would help to take these questions merely one at a time as I now begin to establish the answers I submitted on them as indeed being scriptural. Meanwhile please feel free to ask questions on anything I submit that you fail to fully understand.



So what exactly is the difference between a Jew and a Samaritan, or what is also referred to in the scriptures as an Israelite?



The answer: (once again)

The term Jew more specifically points to the spirit anointed AND theocratically APPOINTED shepherding fold of Israel, whether fleshly or spiritual. A Jew represents and even comprises the actual theocratic kingly/priestly AUTHORITY and POWER of Jehovah's nation or kingdom, and by extension the nation itself.
So the issue now would be how exactly can this answer be demonstrated or proved as indeed being based on the scriptures?

Well just in case there is still any lingering doubt on this in our case, scriptural accounts such as Zechariah Chapter 11 spell this out for us word for word. Judah is clearly associated or identified here as the "shepherding" fold of Jehovah's people while Israel on the other hand is identified as the "flock" or the "sheep." In fact, while considering this chapter of Zechariah we should note that once again we are dealing with this same issue that Jesus speaks of in accounts like John 10:16, but rather in reverse. What exactly do I mean by this?

While the setting here in Zechariah 11 is all about a DIVISION or even separation between these two entities and what exactly would CREATE this division, (namely spiritually "despoiled shepherds" who's unfaithfulness would ultimately prompt Jehovah to "BREAK HIS COVENANT WITH ALL THE PEOPLES"), the setting of John 10:16 on the other hand was all about a REUNIFICATION of these two entities due to a divine covenant that was in the process of being re-established. (Zec 11:3, 10) Compare (Lu 22:29)

As always however we would do well to pay close attention to the specific wording here. For example the reference to "staffs" of course should be directing our minds toward the notion of a shepherd once again, and in fact should by extension have us thinking in terms of the ruling scepter or even "commander's staff" that was always associated with the tribe of Judah. (Ge 49:10) Moreover we might notice that the concept of a "BROKEN" stick or staff is associated here with the LOSS not only of "union" but also "pleasantness." (Zech 11:7)

Now this reference to the notion of "pleasantness" in connection with genuine theocratic shepherding power and authority might in turn direct our minds towards the fact not only that the final step always involved in an established or even RENEWED holy covenant was a communion sacrifice or even "blood inauguration," but also that this event was always associated with a very pleasant or even "restful odor" going up to Jehovah. (He 9:16-18) (Gen 8:20-22) (Ex 49:41-46)

Once again we seem to continually have our attention directed to the concept of a covenant in good standing between Jehovah and mankind when it comes to the issue of these divisions and reunifications of the shepherding and sheep folds of Jehovah's nation. Moreover here in Exodus we are reminded yet again that this "inaugurated" covenant or the lack thereof is what ultimately makes the difference between humans even being considered as belonging to Jehovah at all, and by extension qualifying as Israel. (Whether fleshly or spiritual) You see this is ultimately all about "pleasant" or peaceful relations between Jehovah and mankind, or the lack thereof.

We want to appreciate however that all this is merely a small sampling of available scriptural proofs of what precisely is represented with the distinction between the scriptural identities of a Jew verses simply an Israelite. For example if we might choose to seek out additional confirmation or even elaboration on these particular issues, we would do well to begin factoring in accounts like Ezekiel 37.

Here in Ezekiel in this same context of a SEPARATION between the shepherding and flock folds of Jehovah's people, we find this now BROKEN or "cut" staff being represented now as TWO sticks, one in the hand of Judah and one now MORE SPECIFICALLY associated with the tribe of Ephraim. Well we already know what was symbolically pictured or represented with Judah or even Judea, but what exactly was the tribe of Ephraim used to prophetically foreshadow?

Well we might find it rather noteworthy to discover that Ephraim was used to represent or typify "the full equivalent of NATIONS"! (Ge 48:19) Now particularly when we bear in mind that the capitol city of the ancient ten tribe kingdom of Samaria was situated precisely in the tribal area assigned to Ephraim, is there still any doubt in our minds as to the notion of the distinction between a shepherding fold verses its flock being represented with Judah and Israel?

Elaborations like this however would likely only continue to raise more questions in our minds. Among them would be---If these "stick's or "staffs" represent legitimate theocratic authority and power, how could one EVER be associated with or otherwise represented in connection with Ephraim? Another would be the next of the three questions I am currently producing scriptural answers for, namely---What is the difference between an Israelite and a Samaritan?

To help avoid getting too wordy, why don't we pick up the discussion right here in the next post? Scriptural accounts like Zechariah 11 and Ezekiel 37 are perhaps unusually helpful in unraveling these specific mysteries. For that reason I will be referring back to them regularly throughout this discussion.

Agape love;
Sol

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