John 10:16

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Get out of her
Posts: 919
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#21 Post by Get out of her » 7 months ago

Stranger wrote:
When Solomon died (931 BC?) Rehoboam became King but was soon kicked to the curb and was replaced with de facto king Jeroboam.

Quite true; but of course this rejection of the authority of Rehoboam only applied in the case of the northern ten tribes. What now became known as a ten tribe kingdom of Israel (as opposed to a twelve tribe) immediately began to subject themselves to the whims and will of a man that THEY now chose to recognize as their king, (bear in mind he was never inaugurated or anointed as king by one of Jehovah's prophets as had always been done up until that time) and this was of course Jeroboam just as you state. Also, in view of things like the fact that he immediately began to introduce idolatrous false worship and non Levitical priests to these ten tribal areas, as well as the fact that all the FORMER priests now made an exit and journeyed south to Judea might prompt us to consider the following questions:



Did JEHOVAH actually recognize this new kingship, or otherwise any genuine/legitimate theocratic power and authority as continuing to exist among this new version of Israel; and might this have something to do with it not only now being represented suddenly in the feminine gender, but also as a kind of prostitute? Moreover how might the scriptural answers to these questions impact our understanding of accounts like John 10:16? Would you or anyone perhaps recall any scriptures that might address these questions?

From what I understand is that Jeroboam's wife (Ano), was an Egyptian princess ( "intentionally not portrayed as a real individual in her own right", but that her characterization should be viewed as "the effective use of an anonymous character to fill an important literary function" ) {AB} (1Ki 12:27), (1Ki 11:26)
Particularly in view of how Jehovah himself identified the place where Jesus was impaled as "Sodom and EGYPT" ("in a spiritual sense") in this same prophetic time frame that the words of John 10:16 were uttered, doesn't that make this "intentional Egyptian characterization" all the more interesting and significant? (Re 11:8) Rest assured it is no mere coincidence. Moreover despite the fact that this alarming situation was in the very process of being remedied yet again at the time that Jesus spoke these words of John 10:16, nonetheless it is also no coincidence that the VERY SAME division and harlot-like spiritual condition existed in connection with a much OLDER expression of Judea and Samaria that we find portrayed there in Ezekiel 23. But here is where things become even MORE interesting:

While this DIVISION among Israel is associated with a "mother" or "woman" that gives birth to a kind of "daughter" or even "daughters," (rather promiscuous ones in fact which are characterized with things like "Sodom" and "Egypt"), its REUNIFICATION is ALSO associated with a birth of a woman. However while the "woman" in these prophetic time frames is ALSO characterized with concepts like Egypt, there are at least two things that are now very different with her birth. (Mt 2:15)

Once again what we find here in Matthew 2:15 is this very same characterization of spiritual uncleanness that is found also in accounts like Revelation 11:8 or Ezekiel 23. While virtually everyone seems to have been well programmed to think in terms of Jesus being impaled in ancient Judea just outside Jerusalem, the scriptures once again make it clear that we should be thinking in terms of both his death AND his re-birth (or resurrection) as originating from "EGYPT," or otherwise something associated with great spiritual uncleanness. (Like a "great harlot," or a "disgusting thing that causes desolation" that is now "standing in a holy place" like what WAS recognized by Jehovah as "Judea just outside Jerusalem"?) (Re 17:4) (Mt 24:15, 16) However we might notice that this SUBSEQUENT birth of this "Egyptian"-like woman that is always associated with the REUNIFICATION of Jehovah's "sheep" is now also very different in at least two additional ways.

You see just as was demonstrated for us also in the first century with the first of the foretold births or "comings" of the SPIRITUAL manifestation of Jehovah's nation or kingdom, there is always a very significant and profound spiritual CLEANSING involved with this "birth of the barren woman" which is referred to with scriptural terms such as a "baptism of holy spirit and fire." (Mt 3:11) Compare (Mal 3:2-4) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) This spiritual cleansing results in a birth NOT of promiscuous "Egyptian"-like "DAUGHTERS," but rather of what is now identified as a "SON" or even "SONS." (Mt 2:15) (Isa 66:7, 8) (Re 12:5) (Da 7:13, 14) However ANOTHER thing that is rather different about the prophetic time frame of these SUBSEQUENT births is that great "WOE" now comes against this "pregnant woman" or otherwise what is now also recognized as "suckling" and caring for this newborn male infant." (Mt 24:19-22)

We of course would tend to think very well of anyone involved in the caring and nurturing of what is represented here by this particular "baby." So it might seem rather confusing to us that Jehovah has great "woe" in mind even for them in at least some sense. Could there perhaps be facets of this figurative "pregnant woman" that we are failing to take into account? Would you or anyone like to share some thoughts on this that might clear up any confusion? Also, how might all this tie in with the reunification of Jehovah's nation that is always commensurate with these secondary births, or otherwise what is spoken of also in John 10:16?

Agape love;
Sol

Dajo1
Posts: 333
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#22 Post by Dajo1 » 7 months ago

The “other sheep were surely not a group that was discovered in the 1930s.
I feel that Eph 2:11-15 explains that the other sheep Jesus would bring was the gentiles.

However, I have always puzzled over Revelation 7 about the 144,000 and the great crowd and the teaching that they were two groups. A few months ago Meleti had a great article on his site that made it somewhat clearer... that they were, on reflection, the same.

Also, something was brought to my attention recently that I had never noticed before! It is even more obvious when looking at two words:

“I Heard

and

“Looked" (or “I saw”)

Rev 7:4 starts with John “hearing the number of those sealed”.
Rev 7:9 has him Looking and seeing them.

So he hears a voice give the number then the voice describes how they are from the (symbolic?) 12 tribes.

Then John LOOKS and sees them – a great crowd.

If you do a reading of Rev 7:4 (miss out the listing of the tribes) and jump straight to verse 9
it makes complete sense.
It's a bit like describing something in words (hearing) to someone. Then to substantiate it they have a look at what you said and SEE for themselves!

I don't think he saw two groups of Christs followers. It seems he had them described, after hearing that he just had to have a look and he saw them all - a great crowd of them.

Get out of her
Posts: 919
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#23 Post by Get out of her » 7 months ago

Dajo1 wrote:
The “other sheep were surely not a group that was discovered in the 1930s.
I feel that Eph 2:11-15 explains that the other sheep Jesus would bring was the gentiles.

However, I have always puzzled over Revelation 7 about the 144,000 and the great crowd and the teaching that they were two groups. A few months ago Meleti had a great article on his site that made it somewhat clearer... that they were, on reflection, the same.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here David and I especially appreciated how you introduced Revelation 7 into this discussion as it undoubtedly belongs in it. To keep things more simple and concise however I thought I might focus strictly on the two initial comments you shared here for the moment.


First of all I'm fairly certain we could all agree that the "other sheep" Jesus speaks of in John 10:16 were not a phenomenon that would finally emerge some 2000 years later in the 1930s. Your second comment however caused me to wonder if I gave the impression I disagree with the notion that Jesus was making reference to the distinctions or divisions between Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans there in John.

For the record this is not the case. The issue I'm endeavoring to address here is the fact that I continue to encounter a seemingly endless stream of comments from the brother and sisters that make it very clear to me that they fail to grasp the deeper spiritual or symbolic MEANINGS of these "typical representations and shadows of the good things to come." (He 8:5) (Col 2:17) In fact they most often seem to forget that the ancient fleshly Jews, Samaritans and gentiles were INCLUDED in the things designed to serve as a prophetic/symbolic drama or illustration of SPIRITUAL Israel in the first place. Worse yet, despite very clear scriptures like Hebrews 8:13, many seem to imagine that fleshly Jews (as defined in the scriptures which of course is all that matters) still exist on the earth even until now. Assuming this were true, wouldn’t it mean (for one thing) that fleshly Samaritans and gentiles still exist as well? If we are to establish the identity of a NON Jew or Samaritan/gentile, wouldn't we first need to pin down the scriptural definition of a Jew?

Not to say that all these things hold true in your case; but nevertheless perhaps I can begin demonstrating at least some of these dilemmas by respectfully continuing to pose a series of questions to you in connection with things like the scripture you brought up there in Ephesians and the subsequent comment you made on it. I suspect it would be best to begin by asking you if you would please make an effort to SCRIPTURALLY define or establish the identity and distinctions between the ancient FLESHLY Jews, Samaritans and gentiles.

You see if we cannot scripturally articulate these things even in the case of the FLESHLY and now "obsolete" nation, do we really imagine we could even BEGIN to grasp how they translate to the new SPIRITUAL one? Moreover if we cannot scripturally establish exactly what it was that created a division between these entities, (whether fleshly or spiritual), how could we even begin to grasp what would by extension be involved in their reunification, or otherwise what Jesus is speaking of in John 10:16?

Agape love;
Sol

Dajo1
Posts: 333
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#24 Post by Dajo1 » 7 months ago

Good evening Sol

Prophecy
Zech 8:23
23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days shall ten men take hold, out of all languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard [that] God is with you.

Fulfillment
Acts 13:47,48
47 For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, 'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, That you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

1 Cor 14:24,25
4 But if all prophesy, and there come in one unbelieving or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed

Ephesians 2:11-15 basically explains them being one in Christ

AmosAu3
Posts: 439
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: John 10:16

#25 Post by AmosAu3 » 7 months ago

Hi David,

Good to see you again.

There is so much that I could say to support your thoughts in your recent posts. But alas, I've been subjected to some very seriously traumatic events recently and I need to be quiet for a little while longer.

Regards, Amos.

Dajo1
Posts: 333
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#26 Post by Dajo1 » 7 months ago

Hello Amos

Keep calm and breath deeply and slowly! :problem:
I am sorry things are not too good for you.

AmosAu3
Posts: 439
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: John 10:16

#27 Post by AmosAu3 » 7 months ago

Hello David,

Thanks brother for your thoughts. It is in the process of getting better, though it will be a while coming to terms with the new situation.

Regards, Amos.

Stranger
Posts: 1787
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#28 Post by Stranger » 7 months ago

AmosAu3 wrote:
7 months ago
It is in the process of getting better, though it will be a while coming to terms with the new situation.
Hi Amos,

Stay strong and focused my Brother, all my thoughts and prayers are to you, and for you! "Unto you does He calleth, and unto Him shall you turneth toward."



Brother
Stranger, (1Pe 4:7 KJV)

AmosAu3
Posts: 439
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: John 10:16

#29 Post by AmosAu3 » 7 months ago

Hi Stranger,

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.

As always, I like your verse that you signed off with.

Kind regards, Amos.

Stranger
Posts: 1787
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#30 Post by Stranger » 7 months ago

Get out of her wrote:
7 months ago
(bear in mind he was never inaugurated or anointed as king by one of Jehovah's prophets as had always been done up until that time) and this was of course Jeroboam just as you state.
Hi Sol,

No, I don't remember reading about any inaugural ceremonies for Jeroboam, but I also can't recall reading about A-hi'jah being a false prophet either. (1Ki 11:31)
This raises questions about your statement above.

1) Was A-hi'jah a prophet of Jehovah?

2) @ (1Ki 11:31), Was this an anointing or an appointing?

If you have done your reading on A-hi'jah it would seem that it is left to the reader to use his own discernment of this particular prophet. Legend has it, he lived as long or longer than Methuselah. Other stories don't have him living as long.

A-hi'jah spoke for the God of Israel to Jeroboam about Solomon's one tribe in respect to the house of Kind David. (1Ki 11:32) compare King David's Words (2Sam 23:1,2 KJV)



Stranger, ---- (Rev 22:16 KJV) ---- AUTHORIZED----!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests