Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

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Stranger
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#71 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

FriendlyDoggo wrote: 1 month ago This shows to me that the Bible isn't a cult, the writers allow the readers to think.
That could depend upon which Bible you're reading and which word(s) you're thinking about. (let the reader understand that obscure passages can be clarified with theological precision). For instance, (1Pet 1:20) vs. (1Pet 1:20 KJV).

Look it up! Foreknowledge vs. Foreordination .


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coccus ilicis
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Rev 11:15

#72 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote: 4 months ago On Rev 11:15 and the phrase, "Our Lord and his Christ": Here.


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Hi Bobcat,

That highlights the truth that throughout history people have adjusted the text according to the prevailing narrative. As Apollos said at the time when John received Revelation the trinity doctrine did not exist. At the time of the KJV, it was the central doctrine, and the WT had overturned the doctrine. The intent of the translators was benign. The confusion and religious wrangling started after the waking up of, Dan 12:9,10. Now, these wrinkles have been ironed out and a consensus is emerging. We have come to realize that God's word is exact and that is how it should be.

Babylon the Great's shameful conduct will be exposed for all to see, (Rev 17:16), that is why it says, Get out of her my people if you do not want to share in her sins. The exodus is now almost over with churches being closed. I remember the WT boasting about their increases in the Year Book. The churches that still operate are those doing good works, i.e. the Salvation Army.
LRW~

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Rev 11:15

#73 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi CI,

I don't think I am following your reasoning. If you are referring to Rev 11:15, nobody has claimed that the verse has been amended. They were only wondering who "he" (as in "he will rule ...) was referring to (i.e. either "Our Lord" or "his Christ").


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Rev 11:15

#74 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote: 1 month ago If you are referring to Rev 11:15,
Hi Bobcat,

What else is interesting is the mentioning of the kingdom of the world (Rev 11:15) or the kingdoms of this world. (Rev 11:15 KJV). There is a big difference in meaning if you consider the fact that the world as we know it has many kingdoms on this Earth. Where as the world as we don't know it on this Earth, would have to become a one kingdom world before the Lord and his Christ (Ps 2:2, right on top of things Bobcat :)) could Biblically start to reign.

That's the way it is, who can tell me different?

Stranger, (Ps 2:3-4)

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Rev 11:15

#75 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi Stranger,

The phrase "kingdom (singular) of the world" is interesting in that there are, as you pointed out, numerous kingdoms on earth at any given time. Satan showed Jesus "all the kingdoms (plural) of the world" at Mt 4:8 (Compare also Lu 4:5-6). Yet, at Mt 12:26 Jesus spoke of Satan's "kingdom" (singular). This would correspond with the fact that in Mt 4:8 & Lu 4:5-6 Satan described himself as the singular ruler of "all the kingdoms of the world." Thus, it would be proper to describe all these kingdoms as a singular or collective kingdom (singular).

Similarly, in Dan 2 there are 4 kingdoms (some would argue for 5) described, and yet, all of them are part of the same singular image that comes crashing down when it gets struck on its feet. (Dan 2:34, 35, 44, 45)

As a point of comparison, see this post where the result of the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:15; 'the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ') is equated with the pouring of the 7th bowl (Rev 16:17; onto the "air"). (See also this post where I argue that Rev 11:15-18 marks the end of the Gentile Times, as well as the end of Satan's rule.)

As another point of comparison, note how in Rev 17:16, 17 that it is God (rather than Satan) who 'gives it to who He wishes' (Compare Lu 4:6). Of course, God does not intend for that 8th king to be around for long. (Rev 17:11-14) Rev 17:17 would then be evidence that "the kingdom of the world" had already become "the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ," and thus, that the 7th trumpet had already sounded, and that the 7th bowl was already being poured out. (Rev 11:15) All indicating that the day of judgment will have arrived for the nations. (Rev 11:18; 16:20-21)

(The article before "world" ("of the") is genitive, giving the sense of, 'belonging to,' as in, 'the kingdom 'belonging to' the world.' For which, see also 1Jn 5:19.)


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johnamos2.0
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#76 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 month ago

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”]

[1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, 52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Matt 24: 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

[Rev 20: 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection;+ over these the second death+ has no authority,+ but they will be priests+ of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.+]

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#77 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 month ago

[Revelation 13:1 And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea…5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it]

[Revelation 13:11 And I saw another wild beast (false prophet) ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast. 16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[Rev 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet+ that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast+ and those who worship its image.+ While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

[Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls* of those executed* for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.+ And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ+ for 1,000 years.]

[Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss+ and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon,+ the original serpent,+ who is the Devil+ and Satan,+ and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss+ and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended.]

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#78 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote: 1 month ago The phrase "kingdom (singular) of the world" is interesting in that there are, as you pointed out, numerous kingdoms on earth at any given time. Satan showed Jesus "all the kingdoms (plural) of the world" at Mt 4:8 (Compare also Lu 4:5-6). Yet, at Mt 12:26 Jesus spoke of Satan's "kingdom" (singular). This would correspond with the fact that in Mt 4:8 & Lu 4:5-6 Satan described himself as the singular ruler of "all the kingdoms of the world." Thus, it would be proper to describe all these kingdoms as a singular or collective kingdom (singular).
Hi Bobcat,

Thank you for the in depth response, what you say and demonstrate makes perfect sense in a non perfect world. I am truly blessed to have you as a neighbor and we are all blessed to have you here on this site. (Acts 17:11)

I have not read everything you presented as of yet but I will before the end of day. Unfortunately I have to go get intertwined into one of the kingdoms of the world as we know it. (Work, work, work!).

JohnAmos, if you're reading this I wish you would add a little commentary to those scriptures you posted.


Stranger, (Isa 49:4)

johnamos2.0
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#79 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 month ago

[Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king…13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast/8th king), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Luke 21: 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#80 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 month ago

[Revelation 17:8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.]

[Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration…8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world]

[Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king…13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.]

[Revelation 13:11 And I saw another wild beast (false prophet) ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast. 16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast/8th king), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls* of those executed* for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.+ And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ+ for 1,000 years.]

[Rev 20: 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection;+ over these the second death+ has no authority,+ but they will be priests+ of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.+]

[Rev 16:13 13 And I saw three unclean inspired expressions* that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon+ and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs,+ and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war+ of the great day of God the Almighty.+]

[Rev 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet+ that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast+ and those who worship its image.+ While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

[Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss+ and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon,+ the original serpent,+ who is the Devil+ and Satan,+ and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss+ and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended.]

[Rev 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast+ and the false prophet already were;+ and they will be tormented* day and night forever and ever.]

We can say that the entire Bible is important to read and try to understand but we can also take heed at what is noted above. Notice there is no mention of the 'disgusting thing', the KOTN, the MOL, the 11th horn, the KFIC, 1,335 days, 1,290 days, 2,300 evening and mornings, etc.

That being said, all we have to know is the we are living at the point in time of the 7th head of the wild beast and at some point (hopefully soon) it will receive its death stroke and then get healed...at which point the wild beast becomes the 8th and final king that has 42 months of authority. It is during that time that the mark is given out. Those that will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years are said to have not taken the mark or worshipped the beast/image. They are those that have part in the first resurrection which occurs at the LAST TRUMPET. This LAST trumpet sounds when Jesus arrives (2nd coming) AFTER the GT ends and the SUN, MOON, STAR event occurs. When he arrives and they are raised this will be the beginning of the 1,000 years. First order of business, Armageddon and the abyssing of Satan.

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