Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

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Stranger
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#61 Post by Stranger » 2 months ago

Bobcat wrote: 2 months ago The KJV says "devils" or "devil" where most modern translations have "demons" or "demon." This StackExchange thread (here) has a little on the history of the English words involved and why (possibly) the KJV didn't use the term "demon(s)."
Hi Bobcat,

Thanks for that data, I would assume since the word demon wasn't being used very much if at all during that period, the word demonic was unheard of.
Bobcat wrote: 2 months ago My wife and I "toured" Lowe's yesterday. But that was the extent of our touring. (Or maybe I didn't pick up on what you were saying?)
:) Yeah, I'm sure you didn't pick up what I was saying at Lowes, if you did could you tell me what isle you found it on.

Speaking of "home improvement", this guy is coming to town soon I'm considering seeing the show. you should think about it too.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DxaVOeudtU


Stranger, (Jn 10:21).................(Jn 10:21 KJV)

Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#62 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Stranger,

We were in the paint section and where the caulking is. I wasn't feeling all that well. Hope I didn't miss you there.


Bobcat

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - KJV "Devil(s)" Rendering for Daemon

#63 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A little more on the KJVs use of "devil/devils" as a translation of daemon: Here.


Bobcat

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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#64 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 month ago

Bobcat do you have any clue of what "world" (1 John 2:15 for example) and related really mean in the bible? This is often used by churches/cults to control the behavior of their members:
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/

I tried to see the original in greek and discovered that is "Kosmou":

https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/kosmos

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/cosmos
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Meaning of "World" (Kosmos)

#65 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Regarding the Greek word κόσμος (world), below is all the lexical information about it at BibleHub. I copied it to the forum so that you can hover over the many verse citations and see what the particular verses say. (I tried to copy the formatting also.)

As can be seen, the word has a range of meanings depending on the immediate context in which it is used.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

HELPS Word-studies
2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

[The English term "cosmetic" is derived from 2889 /kósmos, i.e. the order ("ensemble") used of treating the face as a whole.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word

Definition
order, the world

NASB Translation
adornment (1), world (184), world's (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος, κόσμου, ὁ;

1. in Greek writings from Homer down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

2. as in Greek writings from Homer down, ornament, decoration, adornment: ἐνδύσεως ἱματίων, 1 Peter 3:3 (Sir. 6:30 Sir. 21:21; 2 Macc. 2:2; the Sept. for צָבָא of the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts,' as the ornament of the heavens, Genesis 2:1; Deuteronomy 4:19; Deuteronomy 17:8; Isaiah 24:21; Isaiah 40:26; besides occasionally for עֲדִי; twice for תִּפְאֶרֶת, Proverbs 20:29; Isaiah 3:19).

3. the world, i. e. the universe (quem κόσμονGraeci nomine ornamenti appellarunt, eum nos a perfecta absolutaque elegantia mundum, Pliny, h. n. 2, 3; in which sense Pythagoras is said to have been the first to use the word, Plutarch, de plac. philos. 2, 1, 1, p. 886 c.; but according to other accounts he used it of the heavens, (Diogenes Laërtius 8, 48, of which it is used several times also by other Greek writers (see Menag. on (Diogenes Laërtius, the passage cited; Bentley, Epistles of Phalaris, vol. i., 391 (Lond. 1886); M. Anton. 4, 27 and Gataker's notes; cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, IV.)): Acts 17:24; Romans 4:13 (where cf. Meyer, Tholuck, Philippi); 1 Corinthians 3:22; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Philippians 2:15; with a predominant notion of space, in hyperbole, John 21:25 (Wis. 7:17 Wis. 9:3; 2 Macc. 8:18; κτίζειν τόν κόσμον, Wis. 11:18; ὁ τοῦ κόσμου κτίστης, 2 Macc. 7:23; 4 Macc. 5:25 (24); — a sense in which it does not occur in the other O. T. books, although there is something akin to it in Proverbs 17:6, on which see 8 below); in the phrases πρό τοῦ τόν κόσμον εἶναι, John 17:5; ἀπό καταβολῆς κόσμου (Matthew 13:35 R G; ; Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:26; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8) and πρό καταβολῆς κόσμου (John 17:21; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20) (on which see καταβολή, 2); ἀπό κτίσεως κόσμου, Romans 1:20; ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κόσμου, Matthew 24:21; (on the omission of the article, cf. Winers Grammar, p. 123 (117); Buttmann, § 124, 8 b.; (cf. Ellicott on Galatians, 6:14)).

4. the circle of the earth, the earth (very rarely so in Greek writings until after the age of the Ptolemies; so in Boeckh, Corpus inscriptions i., pp. 413 and 643, nos. 334 and 1306): Mark 16:15; (John 12:25); 1 Timothy 6:7; βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου, Revelation 11:15; βασιλεῖαι (plural) τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 4:8 (for which Luke 4:5 τῆς οἰκουμένης); τό φῶς τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, of the sun, John 11:9; ἐν ὅλῳ τῷ κόσμῳ, properly, Matthew 26:13; hyperbolically, equivalent to far and wide, in widely separated places, Romans 1:8; (so ἐν παντί τῷ κόσμῳ, Colossians 1:6); ὁ τότε κόσμος, 2 Peter 3:6; the earth with its inhabitants: ζῆν ἐν κόσμῳ, opposed to the dead, Colossians 2:20 (λῃστής ἦν καί κλέπτης ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, i. e. among those living on earth, Ev. Nicod. 26). By a usage foreign to secular authors,

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17. used specifically of the Gentiles collectively, Romans 11:12 (where it alternates with τά ἔθνη), 15; (the two in combination: τά ἔθνη τοῦ κόσμου, Luke 12:30). hyperbolically or loosely equivalent to the majority of men in a place, the multitude or mass (as we say the public): John 7:4; John 12:19 (here Tr marginal reading adds ὅλος, in brackets); . equivalent to the entire number, ἀσεβῶν, 2 Peter 2:5.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου 1 Corinthians 2:12; ἡ σοφία τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, 1 Corinthians 1:20 (here G L T Tr WH omit τούτου); 1 Corinthians 3:19. (τά στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου, Galatians 4:3; Colossians 2:8, 20 (see 5 above, and στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4).)

7. "worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ": Galatians 6:14; 1 John 2:16; 1 John 3:17; εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to be of earthly origin and nature, John 18:36; somewhat differently in 1 John 2:16 (on which see εἰμί, V. 3 d.); κερδαίνειν τόν κόσμον ὅλον, Matthew 16:26; Mark 8:36; Luke 9:25; οἱ χρώμενοι τῷ κόσμῳ τούτῳ (critical text τόν κόσμον; see χράομαι, 2), 1 Corinthians 7:31a; μέριμναν τά τοῦ κόσμου, 33f; φίλος and φιλία τοῦ κόσμου, James 4:4; ἀγαπᾶν τόν κόσμον, 1 John 2:15; νικαν τόν κόσμον, the incentives to sin proceeding from the world, 1 John 5:4f; the obstacles to God's cause, John 16:33; (cf. ἐλθέτω χάρις καί παρελθέτω ὁ κόσμος οὗτος, Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, c. 10 [ET]).

8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort (cf. English a world of curses (Shakspere), etc.): ὁ κόσμος τῆς ἀδικίας, the sum of all iniquities, James 3:6; τοῦ πιστοῦ ὅλος ὁ κόσμος τῶν χρημάτων, τοῦ δέ ἀπίστου οὐδέ ὀβολός (a statement due to the Alex. translators), Proverbs 17:6. Among the N. T. writers no one uses κόσμος oftener than John; it occurs in Mark three times, in Luke's writings four times, and in the Apocalypse three tinms. Cf. Kreiss, Sur le sens du mot κόσμος dans le N. T. (Strasb. 1837); Düsterdieck on 1 John 2:15, pp. 247-259; Zezschwitz, Profangräcität u. Biblical Sprachgeist, p. 21ff; Diestel in Herzog xvii., p. 676ff; (Trench, Synonyms, § lix.); on John's use of the word cf. Reuss, Histoire de la theologie chretienne au siecle apostolique, ii., p. 463ff (i. e. livre 7 chapter viii.); cf. his Johanneische Theologie, in the Beiträge zu den theol. Wissenschaften, Fasc. i., p. 29ff; (Westcott on John 1:10, 'Additional Note').

Below is every occurrence of kosmos (186x) in the NT:
Mt 4:8; 5:14; 13:35, 38; 16:26; 18:7; 24:21; 25:34; 26:13 (9x); Mr 8:36; 14:9; 16:15 (3x); Lu 9:25; 11:50; 12:30 (3x); Jn 1:9, 10; 29; 3:16; 17, 19; 4:42; 6:14, 33, 51; 7:4, 7; 8:12, 23, 26; 9:5, 39; 10:36; 11:9, 27; 12:19, 25, 31, 46, 47; 13:1; 14:17, 19, 22, 27, 30, 31; 15:18, 19; 16:8, 11, 20, 21, 28, 33; 17:5, 6; 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 21, 23, 24, 25; 18:20, 36, 37; 21:25 (78x); Ac 17:24 (1x); Rom 1:8, 20; 3:6, 19; 4:13; 5:12, 13; 11:12, 15 (9x); 1Co 1:20, 21, 27, 28; 2:12; 3:19, 22; 4:9, 13; 5:10, 6:2; 7:31, 33, 34; 8:4; 11:32; 14:10 (21x); 2Co 1:12; 5:19; 7:10 (3x); Gal 4:3; 6:14 (3x); Eph 1:4; 2:2, 12 (3x); Php 2:15 (1x); Col 1:6; 2:8, 20 (4x); 1Ti 1:15; 3:16; 6:7 (3x); Heb 4:3; 9:26; 10:5; 11:7, 38 (5x); Jas 1:27; 2:5; 3:6; 4:4 (5x); 1Pe 1:20; 3:3; 5:9 (3x); 2Pe 1:4; 2:5, 20; 3:6 (5x); 1Jn 2:2, 15, 16, 17; 3:1, 13, 17; 4:1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 14, 17; 5:4, 5, 19 (23x); 2Jn 1:7 (1x); Rev 11:15; 13:8; 17:8 (3x).

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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#66 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 month ago

Thanks, will help a lot. :)
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Meaning of "World" (Kosmos)

#67 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi Doggo,

A word study of the term kosmos is also a study of the fluidity of language itself. For example, God 'loves the world so much ...' (Jn 3:16), yet, we are told to 'not be loving the world ...' (1Jn 2:15)

It really goes to show that recognizing the context (or not), and an appreciation (or not) of the variability of language and words can greatly affect how one understands the Bible. The varied understanding displayed in the posts on this forum is surely an example of that.

Just as an aside, I know that Jehovah and Christ understand all that about language. It leads me to think that they had the Scriptures made in such a way that one's heart condition is what is made clear in the end. (Lu 2:34, 35)

I also put all that reference material on kosmos in my post above for future reference in case any would like to study the word at his/her convenience. Having it all here allows easy reference to the many verses involved by just hovering over the verse citations.


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johnamos2.0
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#68 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 month ago

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Who is being referred to as the 'evil one'?
What is the direct relationship between God and the 'evil one'?

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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Meaning of "World" (Kosmos)

#69 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote: 1 month ago It really goes to show that recognizing the context (or not), and an appreciation (or not) of the variability of language and words can greatly affect how one understands the Bible. The varied understanding displayed in the posts on this forum is surely an example of that.

Just as an aside, I know that Jehovah and Christ understand all that about language. It leads me to think that they had the Scriptures made in such a way that one's heart condition is what is made clear in the end. (Lu 2:34, 35)
This shows to me that the Bible isn't a cult, the writers allow the readers to think.
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#70 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

I completely agree.


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