Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Parath Jer 13:1-11

#21 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

A thread on Jeremiah chapter 13 and on what was Jeremiah's destination for burying a linen belt: Here.

I was just going over past threads and thought I would link this one as it does rate as a curious or difficult saying. If anyone has a specific comment on that subject I would appreciate it if you would make the comment in that thread so that the information will all be cataloged in that thread for future reference.


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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - "According to the Scriptures" 1Co 15:3-4

#22 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

A thread on Reddit AcademicBiblical (here) where someone asked, in connection with 1Co 15:3-4, where does it say that 'Jesus was raised on the third day according to the scriptures.'

The poster was wanting to know where the OT ever specified "the third day" in connection with Jesus' resurrection.

One of the commentors quoted from a reference that showed how "the scriptures" (note plural) might have indicated this, without specifically saying this in connection with the Messiah. Quoting from Christopher Bryan, in The Resurrection of the Messiah (Oxford University Press, 2011, pp. 49-50), it said:
"But which parts of the Scriptures? Paul would probably have answered 'All the Scriptures!' since for him, clearly, the entire record of God's dealing with the people of God points to the death and resurrection of Christ, 'for,' as he pointed out to the Romans, 'Christ is the end (*telos--*that is, 'the purpose, the fulfillment, the proper conclusion') of the Law, that every one who has faith may be justified' (Rom 10:4). Yet that does not mean that particular scriptural passages may not be in mind.

"With regard to he died for our sins commentators have generally, and I think correctly, pointed to the passage in the second part of Isaiah (Isa 53:4-5) . . . . With regard to upon the third day, scholars tend to point to Hosea 6:2: 'After two days he will revive us; and on the third day he will raise us up, that we shall live before him.' In this connection I also find persuasive a suggestion made some years ago by the Jewish scholar Pinchas Lapide, that those who were familiar with Israel's Scriptures would have heard in the expression 'on the third day' not simply a reference to a period of time, or even to a particular text, but rather to a whole series of texts and traditions about 'the third day,' all of them pointing to God's mercy (Gen 22:4; 42:18; Ex 19:16; Est 5:1; Jonah 1:17) . . ."

As an aside, see this post for discussion and links to other discussions on the number three in Scripture.


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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - "Until" in Mt 23:39

#23 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

A post regarding Mt 23:39 and the "until" in that verse: Here.


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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Marrying & Given in Marriage

#24 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

On Jesus' use of the phrase, "marrying and given in marriage" (used at: Mt 22:30; 24:38; Mark 12:25; Luke 17:27; 20:34, 35): Here.


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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - 2Ki 23:29

#25 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Regarding 2Ki 23:29 and 2Ki 23:29 KJV (KJV contradicts all other translations), see this thread.


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Stranger
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#26 Post by Stranger » 2 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 months ago
Regarding 2Ki 23:29 and 2Ki 23:29 KJV (KJV contradicts all other translations), see this thread.


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Hi Bobcat,

So what you're pointing out here is that Neco didn't originally intend to go up against Josiah but had plans to assist him instead?



Stranger, (2Ki 23:24 KJV)

Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - 2Ki 23:29

#27 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Stranger,
So what you're pointing out here is that Neco didn't originally intend to go up against Josiah but had plans to assist him instead?

Yes and no. Pharaoh Neco (and his army) was transiting Judah's territory to go help the Assyrians against a coalition of Babylon and Medo-Persia. Josiah intended to prevent that. Neco told Josiah to basically mind his own business. (2Ch 35:21-22) Despite that, Josiah moved to intercept the Egyptians and got himself killed in the process. (Compare the parallel account at 2Ch 35:20-27)

If you have 14 minutes, the video below discusses that. It is somewhat of an infomercial for Accordance Bible Software which is interesting in its own right. But he shows the history and movement of forces in the passage about Josiah's death. You might want to make the video full screen to be able to appreciate the detail it includes.





The reason I included the post in this thread is because 2Ki 23:29 in nearly all Bibles say that Necho was going up to meet Assyria. Many include the words "to help" the Assyrians. The KJV says that Neco was "going up against" Assyria. The KJV is not wrong, per se, in its translation. The NET has a footnote (# 56) at 2Ki 23:29 in reference to the words "going up" that says:
tn Heb “went up to.” The idiom עַל…עָלָה (ʿalah…ʿal) can sometimes mean “go up against,” but here it refers to Necho’s attempt to aid the Assyrians in their struggle with the Babylonians.

The 16th-17th century KJV translator's didn't have the historical background of the event available to them to translate the phrase accurately. They didn't know that Neco was moving to assist the Assyrians. So they took the phrase ("going up") to mean that Neco was "going up against" the Assyrians.

So there is nothing sinister on the part of the KJV. It's just that the historical facts about the intentions of the Egyptians had not been dug up at that time. If I remember correctly, from one of my links in my post above, it wasn't until about 1956 that Neco's intentions were fully understood.

As a curious footnote to all this, 2Ch 35:21 has Neco telling Josiah that this (his movement to help Assyria) was of God. And for Josiah to stay out of the way. The Chronicler (Ezra) says that what Neco said was from God. (2Ch 35:22) What is curious is that the battle at Carchemish in 605 BCE (where Neco was heading) was a decisive defeat for the Egyptians. Neco was the last possible impediment to the Babylonian Empire's rulership over the Levant. So, taking the words of 2Ch 35"21-22 at face value, God was trying to protect Josiah, but was maneuvering Neco to his own defeat. But Neco took the words of God to mean that God was supporting him in his efforts against Babylon. In the book of Daniel Nebuchadnezzar is told that it was God who put him in place as a world ruler. (Dan 2:21, 37-38)

Adding to the curiosity is later, when Satan attempts to tempt Jesus, Satan shows him all the kingdoms and their glory, and tells Jesus that he gives rulership of them to whomever he wants. (Lu 4:5-6) Satan is implying that when Babylon became a world power, that it was something that Satan intended. It gives me the impression that Satan is 'playing it by ear' so-to-speak. He moves his chess pieces according to what he sees at the moment. But behind the scene is Jehovah who sees a far bigger picture than what Satan sees. So that, just as Satan tires to maneuver human kings according to what he wants, he himself is being maneuvered by God. Like Neco, Satan just doesn't recognize that yet. (Compare this post.)


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AmosAU
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#28 Post by AmosAU » 2 months ago

Hi Bobcat and Stranger,

This is the verse from the LXX. Where do you think this fits?

2 Kings 23:29 And in his days went up Pharao Nechao king of Egypt against the king of the Assyrians to the river Euphrates: and Josias went out to meet him: and Nechao slew him in Mageddo when he saw him.

Regards, Amos.

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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - 2Ki 23:29

#29 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Amos,

It appears that the LXX is at the same historical disadvantage as the KJV. It could be that the KJV made its rendering of 2Ki 23:29 based on the LXX. (Here is some of the history of the making of the KJV.)

Josephus mentions Neco's own desires for prominence and that Neco was "going up" to oppose Babylon and the Medes. (Here) But Josephus wasn't available to the LXX translators (they were a couple of centuries before Josephus' time). In some way the correct understanding of Neco's movements was available to Josephus. The LXX translators were located in Alexandria, Egypt. I don't know if that may have prevented them from knowing more accurately about Neco's intentions.

I don't know if Josephus was available to the KJV translators. But I suspect not. The KJV was commissioned in 1604 and published in 1611 (here). Josephus was not translated into English until 1602 (here). Given the times (very early 17th century), it doesn't appear that Josephus would have been available to the KJV translators so that they could analyze it for comparison with their translating efforts.

That's my take so far. Any further research would be appreciated.

As a late add to this post: The NAC-1, 2 Chronicles commentary (J. A Thompson, p. 385) says, "Neco's movement into these areas has become clear since the publication of the Babylonian Chronicles."

Here is a Wikipedia article on them, which makes it clear that they were not available to the KJV translators. And here is a Google search listing for PDFs of them. I haven't had time yet to locate the account(s) about Neco. And here is a brief write-up on Neco in the Jewish Virtual Library.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Acts 9:7; 22:9

#30 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

A thread on Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9, and what, on the surface, appears to be a contradiction: Here.


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