Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#1 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Poster Stranger gave me the encouragement to start a general thread on the topic in the thread title above. The purpose of the thread is to list (or link to) various words or phrases in the Bible and show the research that may shed light on it. So in that sense, the thread is open to a wide variety of posts with the above as a general theme.

Because the Bible was originally written to and from an ANE audience, many things in it may seem strange to our modern ears and practices. So this thread can be a service to help understand, as well as a place for people to put their research efforts here.

I am going to use this first post as a sort of running index to the posts that are made so that one can go to particular scriptures and explanations. I'll try to keep the index sorted by the main scripture that is being discussed. If a post doesn't lend itself to be listed by a particular scripture I will list it in a topical index further down.


Scripture . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Post Number(s)

Gen 4:1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 48

Gen 4:26 "Calling on Jehovah's Name" . .# 49

Gen 6:1-4 Materialized Angels . . . . . . .# 53

Ex 4:24-26 "Bridegroom of Blood". . . . . # 34

1Sa 17:50-51 & 2Sa 21:19 . . . . . . . . . . # 33

1Sa 28:12 "Samuel" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 50

2Ki 23:29 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 25-29 (Links)

Jer 13:1-11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 21

Amos 8:11 "Famine" - When? . . . . . . . .# 54

Zech 2:11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 45

Mt 6:9-13 The Lord's Prayer . . . . . . . . # 52

Mt 7:13-14 "Many" & "Few" . . . . . . . . . # 39

Mt 16:18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 2, 7 (Link)

Mt 22:30; 24:38 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 24 (Link)

Mt 23:39 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 23 (Link)

Mt 24:28; Lu 17:37 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 6 (Link), 10-15

Mt 24:39 "they took no note" . . . . . . . .# 41

Jn 8:58 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 32 (Link)

Jn 18:31-32 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 16

Ac 1:3 "Forty Days" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 43

Ac 2:17 "Last Days" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 42

Ac 9:7 & 22:9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 30

Ac 11:26 "Divine Providence" . . . . . . . # 55

1Co 15:3-4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 22

1Co 15:33 "Useful Habits" . . . . . . . . . # 37

2Co 12:2 "Third Heaven" . . . . . . . . . . # 40

Eph 4:6, 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 31

2Th 2:1 Jehovah or Jesus? . . . . . . . . . # 47

1Ti 2:4 "All Sorts Of" . . . . . . . . . . . . .# 36

Rev 1:10 "The Lord's Day" . . . . . . . . . # 38

Rev 4:11 "Receive ...Power" . . . . . . . # 44

Rev 11:15 "Our Lord and His Christ" . . .# 51

Rev 16:19 "The Great City" . . . . . . . . # 46

Rev 22:2 "Tree" or"Trees". . . . . . . . . . # 35



Topic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Post Numbers

Parath . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 21 (Link)

Textual Omissions/Insertions . . . . . . . # 5 (Link)


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - "The Gates of Hades" Mt 16:18

#2 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Matthew 16:18 ─ "The gates of hades" will not overpower/prevail over it" (i.e. the congregation that Jesus will build.)

I ran across an explanation of this phrase in a footnote in the NET translation at the NetBible site:
tn Or “and the power of death” (taking the reference to the gates of Hades as a metonymy).
"tn" stands for "textual note." And metonymy refers to, "a figure of speech consisting of the use of the name of one thing for that of another of which it is an attribute or with which it is associated (such as "crown" in "lands belonging to the crown")" (from Merriam-Webster)


Taken that way, the "gates of hades" would be a way of saying that death would not overpower the congregation Jesus was going to build.

In taking it that way, one might also be able to discern that Jesus knew that the congregation he was building would take many lifetimes to complete. Also that those of that congregation who died would someday be freed from death. Nor would persecution that led to death be successful against his congregation. (Rev 6:9-11)


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 2241
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#3 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
Taken that way, the "gates of hades" would be a way of saying that death would not overpower the congregation Jesus was going to build.
Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
In taking it that way, one might also be able to discern that Jesus knew that the congregation he was building would take many lifetimes to complete.
Hi Bobcat,

Nice thread, very interesting!

One other thing that popped in my head about the gates of hades other than just death as it's main source of power is, it doesn't have the power to stop the congregation from procreating, such as a Doctor can perform a hysterectomy or a vasectomy. The congregation would be immune or protected from any such procedural attempts.


Stranger, (Dan 8:25 KJV)

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - The Gates of Hades of Mt 16:18

#4 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Good thought!
it doesn't have the power to stop the congregation from procreating, such as a Doctor can perform a hysterectomy or a vasectomy. The congregation would be immune or protected from any such procedural attempts.
That made me think of Satan sowing weeds. (Mt 13:38, 39) His idea being to choke out any wheat and prevent the wheat from proliferating. Jesus had the problem covered!


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Textual Omissions & Insertions

#5 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Related to this thread is this one on textual omissions and insertions.


Bobcat

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - The Vultures of Mt 24:28

#6 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Links to posts on the saying in Mt 24:28, "Where the vultures are, there the corpse will be also" (Also Lu 17:37): Here.


Bobcat

Return to Index

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - The Rock of Mt 16:18

#7 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

This thread was also about Mt 16:18, but focused on who the "rock" was referring to.


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 2241
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#8 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Hey Bobcat,

Just a thought, but if you think we should merge my thread with this one I've got no problem with that.

We can leave it like it is, or you can work your librarian magic :D, and make it happen, I'll let you make the call on that.



Stranger

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#9 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Hi Stranger,

Yours has a slightly different direction than this one. Yours seems more directed towards textual and translation issues. This one is more about the meaning of words and phrases.

They were close enough that I put a link to yours in the index. But I think they have a different enough topic to warrant keeping them separate.

Having said that, I might go ahead and put an index in yours also. It will make for ease of reference after the thread gains a good number of posts about different verses. I have indexes in a number of other threads and they have come in really handy for going to a particular post or subject fast.


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#10 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
Poster Stranger gave me the encouragement to start a general thread on the topic in the thread title above. The purpose of the thread is to list (or link to) various words or phrases in the Bible and show the research that may shed light on it. So in that sense, the thread is open to a wide variety of posts with the above as a general theme.

Because the Bible was originally written to and from an ANE audience, many things in it may seem strange to our modern ears and practices. So this thread can be a service to help understand, as well as a place for people to put their research efforts here.

I am going to use this first post as a sort of running index to the posts that are made so that one can go to particular scriptures and explanations. I'll try to keep the index sorted by the main scripture that is being discussed. If a post doesn't lend itself to be listed by a particular scripture I will list it in a topical index further down.


Scripture . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Post Numbers

Mt 16:18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # 2, 7 (Link)
Mt 24:28; Lu 17:37 . . . . . . . . . # 6 (Link)



Topic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Post Numbers

Textual Omissions/Insertions . . . # 5 (Link)


Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

This should be an interesting exercise. What do you mean when you say
originally written to and from an ANE audience
I suggest that those participating check the interlinear and check the meaning of words in question.

Mt 24:28
Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. NAS
Lu 17:37
"Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."NAS

Unlike in English the Greek words for body and corpse/carcass are not interchangeable

https://biblehub.com/greek/4430.htm see, left-hand column for verses where this word occurs
#4430 πτῶμα, ατος, τό; Noun, Neuter; ptóma; a fall, a misfortune, ruin; a fall; a carcass, corpse, dead body.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4983.htm see, left-hand column for verses where this word occurs
#4983 sóma: a body; σῶμα, ατος, τό; Noun, Neuter; sóma; a body; Usage: body, flesh; the body of the Church.

Since Luke himself was not an eye witness but gathered his information from oral accounts circulating at that time, it appears that this witness thought Jesus had been talking about the body of the church which indicates that this was a second or third-hand interpretation of what Jesus had said at the time when he gave the sign that would mark the end as recorded in chapter 24 of Matthew and chapter 13 of Mark.
Luke's account has this information, not as a continuous monologue, but as reported by various witnesses at Lu 12:35-48, also at Lu 17:20-37 and Lu 21:5-36. What he said Lu 17:37 was addressed to Pharisees Lu17:20 and it is probable that this information originated with them after these ones had become members of the particular group of the early church of which he was also a member. That is what Luke refers to when he said ... Whereas many have undertaken to compile the facts that are given credence among us the us referring to his group of followers of Jesus. He wasn't at all happy with those many other compilations and therefore ...resolved to write them in logical order... and adding additional information that had been given credence among them Lu 1:1,3

At Mt 27:59 they asked for the body of Jesus so the word body can be used with a freshly deceased person, but a ptoma/corpse or carcass is carrion, where the body has started to decay ...Lord by now he must smell... Jhn 11:39.

Christendom worships a carcass hanging on a cross and that is why Jesus said ... "Then if anyone says to you here is the christ or there, do not believe it... wherever the carcass is there the vultures will be gathered together...Mt 24:23,28 The vultures referring to the eaters of Christ's corpse as done at communion in various churches of Christendom. Compare Jhn 6:31,32,35, ...I am the living bread that came down from heaven if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever... Explaining what he meant by this, he added: it is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life... Jhn 6:51,63

Love
LRW~

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests