Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

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Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Rev 11:15

#51 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

On Rev 11:15 and the phrase, "Our Lord and his Christ": Here.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Mt 6:9-13

#52 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

On the Lord's Prayer (Mt 6:9-13), see this thread.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Gen 6:1-4

#53 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Regarding Gen 6:1-4 and whether the disobedient angels materialized and lived as humans: Here.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Amos 8:11

#54 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

A thread on Amos 8:11 and when the "famine" occurs: Here.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#55 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

A thread on Acts 11:26 and the NWT phrase, "by divine providence": Here.


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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Mt 21:5, 7

#56 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

A thread on Mt 21:5, 7 and how many animals were involved in Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem: Here.


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Stranger
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Jn 6:69 "Holy One of God"

#57 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Is the term "Holy one of God" used at (Mk 1:24) and (Lu 4:34) by devils and demons appropriately used by the NWT and other novel versions at (Jn 6:69)? Compare (Jn 6:69 KJV)



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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - Jn 6:69 "Holy One of God"

#58 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

On the term "Holy One of God" at Jn 6:69, there is an extensive footnote (# 118) regarding variations in some of the MSS:
sn You have the words of eternal life…you are the Holy One of God! In contrast to the response of some of his disciples, here is the response of the Twelve, whom Jesus then questioned concerning their loyalty to him. This was the big test, and the Twelve, with Peter as spokesman, passed with flying colors. The confession here differs considerably from the synoptic accounts (Matt 16:16, Mark 8:29, and Luke 9:20) and concerns directly the disciples’ personal loyalty to Jesus, in contrast to those other disciples who had deserted him (John 6:66).

tc The witnesses display a bewildering array of variants here. Instead of “the Holy One of God” (ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ, ho hagios tou theou), Tertullian has ὁ Χριστός (ho Christos, “the Christ”); C Θ* ƒ 33 565 lat read ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ (ho Christos ho huios tou theou, “the Christ, the Son of God”); two versional witnesses (b sy) have ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ (“the Son of God”); the Byzantine text as well as many others (Ψ 0250 ƒ 33 M) read ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος (ho Christos ho huios tou theou tou zōntos, “the Christ, the Son of the living God”); and P as well as a few versions have ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ (“the Christ, the Holy One of God”). The reading ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ is, however, well supported by P א B C* D L W as well as versional witnesses. It appears that Peter’s confession in the Synoptic Gospels (especially Matt 16:16) supplied the motivation for the variations. Although the witnesses in Matt 16:16; Mark 8:29; and Luke 9:20 vary considerably, the readings are all intra-synoptic, that is, they do not pull in “the Holy One of God” but reflect various permutations of “Christ”/“Christ of God”/“Christ, the Son of God”/“Christ, the Son of the living God.” The wording “the Holy One of God” (without “Christ”) in significant witnesses here is thus unique among Peter’s confessions, and best explains the rise of the other readings.

The upshot of the footnote is that "Holy One of God" appears to be the best attested reading.


And here is Constable's Notes comment on the passage (Jn 6:68-69):
Typically, Peter spoke for the Twelve. “Lord” (Gr. kurios) can mean simply “sir,” but here it probably has a deeper meaning. These disciples were reaffirming their allegiance to the One whom Peter now identified as the Holy One of God (cf. Ps. 16:10; Isa. 41:14; 43:3; 47:4; 48:17; Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34). Peter probably did not mean that they viewed Jesus as their last resort but that Jesus was their only hope. They believed that Jesus’ teachings resulted in eternal life for those who believed (Jn 6:63), and they had believed in Him as the holy Messiah whom God had sent.

Peter’s confession of faith here is not the same as the one He made later at Caesarea Philippi (Matt. 16:16; Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20). The content is different as is the chronology. Probably Peter’s confession of Jesus’ full deity occurred first at Caesarea Philippi. Here he evidently meant that the Twelve believed that Jesus was who He had claimed to be in the preceding discourse, namely, the Messiah who had come with divine revelation from God. Peter referred to Jesus as the Holy One later in his preaching, but that was after receiving much more insight, particularly from Jesus’ resurrection (Acts 2:27; 3:14).
The reason I am referencing Constable's Notes is because it gives a fuller list of where such terminology is used throughout the Bible. For example, in the Isaiah passages listed above, Jehovah is called "the Holy One of Israel."

It is interesting that the demons used similar language of Jesus, which included recognizing his relationship to God ("of God"). They also recognized that he was the Christ and "the Son of God." (Lu 4:41) Based on Lu 4:41, being "the Son of God" and being "the Christ" seemed to have been understood as being somewhat synonymous.


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Stranger
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings

#59 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote: 1 month ago It is interesting that the demons used similar language of Jesus, which included recognizing his relationship to God ("of God"). They also recognized that he was the Christ and "the Son of God." (Lu 4:41) Based on Lu 4:41, being "the Son of God" and being "the Christ" seemed to have been understood as being somewhat synonymous.
Hi Bobcat,

I see you went on a tour yesterday :) good for you , If I were a KJV onlyist I would have to disagree with your statement about the demons for the simple fact that the KJV does not use the word demon anywhere in the Bible (Lu 4:41 KJV). But I'm not so I won't. It has been said that modern versions have fell in the same error as the KJV in certain instances such as (Jn 6:70). It has also been said and I'll say it again, that the phrase "in the Greek" and "in the Hebrew" is too often followed by echoes from the "bottomless pit".


Stranger, (Rev 9:11 KJV)

Bobcat
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Re: Curious & Difficult Bible Sayings - KJV "Devil(s)" Rendering for Daemon

#60 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi Stranger,

The KJV says "devils" or "devil" where most modern translations have "demons" or "demon." This StackExchange thread (here) has a little on the history of the English words involved and why (possibly) the KJV didn't use the term "demon(s)."

My wife and I "toured" Lowe's yesterday. But that was the extent of our touring. (Or maybe I didn't pick up on what you were saying?)


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