Revelation

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#281 Post by Stranger » 3 weeks ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 weeks ago
Further to the above, I post under the moniker 'E.' for elle in the comments section of youtube videos.

You and I are bound to go a lot further, and everything looks worse in black and white, but if you would like to hear me say hello to you elle, just spell these letters
in a light English tone out loud or in silent: "L-O-L-A". And if you were to hear me say those letters to you in my natural accentual value, you just might take me up on that ride I offered. (lol) I'll do my best to keep the radio at 432hz, but Lo! and Behold! I always have to factor in the variables of such a broad banded route we must take along the WAY! We won't be taking a Christ Slurr (whoops!) I meant Chrysler. We'll be going Kodiak (whoops!) I meant Cadillac style.


You get a star from me E, they come in a limited number and I know you can count to it. It's Way less than the number of frequencies you and I have to listen too.

Besides that, the band is gonna need a seamstress!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CNtap6bow

It's about 9:15 somewhere so tarry not much longer.


Stranger, (Heb 9:15)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 682
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#282 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 weeks ago

Bobcat wrote:
3 weeks ago
Hi Stranger

CI wrote:
If one removes the chapter and verse divisions from Genesis and just looks for those identifying colophon phrases one finds who wrote what. The first document starts at Gen 1:1 and ends with ... this is the history of the heavens and the earth (Gen 2:4a). It does not say who the author is but it is clear that it does not come from a human source. Adam’s account starts at Gen 2:4b and ends with the words ...This is the book of Adams history, (Gen 5:1a). Noah’s account is next and ends with ...this is the history of Noah, (Gen 6:9a). Then comes the account of Noah’s three sons and it ends with the words ...And this is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, (Gen 10:1a) ...

You can see some of what CI said right here. (We here at DTT are on the ball! 8-) )

As for who wrote it, 2Ti 3:16 gets you to the bottom line, where the buck stops.

Wiseman's book is available used, but a bit pricey. I saw it from the $80 range on up to several hundred dollars. This isn't a sales pitch, but just to let you know.


Bobcat
Hi Bobcat,
Glad to see the DDT site is on the ball. I got a second-hand copy years ago, knowing I’d wanted to check it out in depth when the opportunity arose

For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens... (Ecc 3:1). It somehow feels like this is the time to reach out to those who don't know, and those who may have doubts, and those who don't believe in God at all. ...And I have further seen under the sun the place of justice where there was wickedness and the place of righteousness where wickedness was. I myself have said in my heart: "The Elohim will judge... there is a time for every affair and for every work... Ecc 3:17
LRW~

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 682
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#283 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 weeks ago

Stranger wrote:
3 weeks ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
3 weeks ago
Further to the above, I post under the moniker 'E.' for elle in the comments section of youtube videos.
You and I are bound to go a lot further, and everything looks worse in black and white, but if you would like to hear me say hello to you elle, just spell these letters
in a light English tone out loud or in silent: "L-O-L-A". And if you were to hear me say those letters to you in my natural accentual value, you just might take me up on that ride I offered. (lol) I'll do my best to keep the radio at 432hz, but Lo! and Behold! I always have to factor in the variables of such a broad banded route we must take along the WAY! We won't be taking a Christ Slurr (whoops!) I meant Chrysler. We'll be going Kodiak (whoops!) I meant Cadillac style.

You get a star from me E, they come in a limited number and I know you can count to it. It's Way less than the number of frequencies you and I have to listen too.
Besides that, the band is gonna need a seamstress!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CNtap6bow
It's about 9:15 somewhere so tarry not much longer.
Stranger, (Heb 9:15)
Hi Stranger

I don’t have an ear for music but tune into the Bible at 432hz with the occasional rise to 963hz. I just might take you up on the offer for a ride, it certainly won't be boring.

As I said to John S in ‘Many Abodes,’
We are not all on the same page yet, and maybe never will be. Jehovah does not require his earthly children to be like tin soldiers marching in unison
.

But we'll be doing this:
https://www.facebook.com/10012907491039 ... 0961501244

I don’t know what spirit moves John when he goes off the deep end. I know he believes its God’s Frequency, but I doubt it.

Thank you for the music lesson.

When all Jehovah’s children learn what it means to play their tunes in the 432 range, the fountain will bubble forth waters of everlasting life... (Jhn 4:14) the mountains themselves will become cheerful before you with a joyful outcry, and the very trees in the field will all clap their hands, Instead of the thicket of thorns the juniper tree comes up. Instead of the stinging nettle, the myrtle tree will come up. And it must become for Jehovah something famous. a sign to time indefinite that will not be cut off... (Isa 55:12,13)
LRW~

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#284 Post by Stranger » 3 weeks ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 weeks ago
Hi Stranger

I don’t have an ear for music but tune into the Bible at 432hz with the occasional rise to 963hz. I just might take you up on the offer for a ride, it certainly won't be boring.
Hi Coccus,

Let's get this straight, I don't want any miscalculations or any oscillations go adrift, the carriage has been serviced and fueled. The ride isn't about those numbers anyway. My meter red lined with them along time ago working with those, so I threw it out the window when it started to smoke. (lol)a!

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 weeks ago
But we'll be doing this:
https://www.facebook.com/10012907491039 ... 0961501244
You mean again? (Gen 7:1,2......) compare (Ecc 3:15) I agree, the animals are what is important at this junction, people have had time to make their arrangements and last minute preparations.

I know you don't have an ear for music, you got two that God gave you, so use them. (Ecc 4:9)


That messenger position you were inquiring about, has that position been filled yet?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEbi_YjpA-Y



Stranger, (Phil 1:12 KJV)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 682
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#285 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 weeks ago

Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 5

Continuing on from post 283. In post 284, Stranger enquired about the messenger position of Rev 14:6,7 asking:
..."Has that position been filled yet?
That position is open to anyone and all who are keen to learn the following and apply it.

You heard that it was said in ancient times you must not swear [promise/make an oath] without performing, However, I say to you: Do not swear at all... Just let your word, ‘Yes,’ mean Yes, your ‘No,’ No... for what is in excess of this is from the wicked one... You heard that it was said, ‘An Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also... if someone in authority impresses you into service for a mile, go with him for two miles ...give to the one asking, and do not turn away from the one that wants to borrow from you without interest...(Mt 5:33-42).

What Jesus negated was the mindset and normal practice of his target audience, but the principles apply to all people regardless of time or place. And like Jesus, the messenger in mid-heaven would keep their target audience in mind.

You heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you, that you may prove yourselves sons of your father who is in the heavens... (Mt 5:43,44). He did not concern himself with doctrines, the main thrust of his teaching was to break down the barriers that separated people one from the other, all are potential children of God. In conclusion, he speaks about the unchangeable natural law ...Stop judging that you may not be judged for with the measure you are measuring out it will be measured out to you...(Mt 7:1-5) Again a common practice that applies as much today; looking down on others not of our social set is commonly practiced.

And concerning, that day, the conclusion of the system of things, he ends his sayings with an analogy ..."Therefore every one that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discrete man, [cf Mt 24:45], who built his house on a rock-mass. And the rain poured and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in for it had been built upon the rock-mass"... Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to the foolish man, [cf Mt 23:17; 25:2], who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew an struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great... (Mt 7:22,24-27). His sayings are the rock-mass, and that storm is rapidly approaching.

The work of the messenger flying in mid-heaven entails seeking out those who have doubts, and those who don’t believe in a God that created all things wherever they might be found (Rev 14:7) and helping them to see the need to acknowledge him as the creator, thereby giving credit where credit is due.

Talking about giving credit where credit is due. I wish to thank the performers and producers of the videos I featured in post 283 above. I use them as metaphors to make my point..

Here is the first one again.

.

Each is identically clothed to reflect the ethos of their group, they prance like puppets on strings to the tune of the one who pays the piper. With one from among them being chosen to take the lead. This is the world we live in. The world in which the adversary rules, whose attitude is ...What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, and the son of earthling man that you take care of him? You also proceeded to make him a little less than the gods, and with glory and splendour, you then crowned him. You make him dominate over the works of your hands; everything you have put under his feet...(Ps 8:4-6) And this adversary lays this charge against humankind ... Skin in behalf of skin and everything a man has he will give in behalf of his soul [life]... (Job 2:4)

We are now in a period referred to as the conclusion of the system of things (Mt 13:40; 24:3). Jesus had spoken the words his heavenly father had commanded him to speak (Jhn 12:47-49) and he had sown these words in the field that is the world, (Mt 13:24-29, 37-43). When night came, (Jhn 9:4,5), God's adversary had oversown the field with weeds and the workers had asked the householder if they should go and weed the field. But the householder told them, 'No' because they might accidentally uproot some of the wheat seedlings in the process. The stalks of wheat are those who had heard or hear God’s words and take them to heart. And every one of them is precious to him, (Mk 4:8,9).

So he told the workers ...Let both,[the weeds and the wheat], grow together until the harvest and I will tell the reapers to, First collect the weeds and bind them into bundles toward the burn up ... The field has been cut and the tying up of the weeds is in progress, with peoples being classified and tied into their respective bundles, i.e. tinker, taylor, soldier, sailor politicians, bankers, investors, gangs, alternative lifestylers, Gays, straights, right-wing, left-wing, academics, religious denominations and so forth. All are labelled and have their own code of conduct. But the stalks of wheat are left in among the rubbish of the field, and yet at that time ... the righteous ones, [the stalks of wheat], will shine as brightly as the sun... Let him that has ears listen... (Mt 13:39,40,43).

This is where the cut stalks of wheat have fallen.
Image

And this is the work they do that makes them shine as brightly as the sun.
Image

At one time these workers, like the filly, may have belonged to a pack and followed the rules of the pack, and like the filly, they had gotten stuck in the quagmire of this world ruled by the creator’s adversary. To watch the video click on this Facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/10012907491039 ... 0961501244. It’s rough work but they don't mind getting mucky as they struggle to find a way to pull this filly free. She also is another soul/breather (Gen 1:20; 2:7). And although she has been taught to fear humans, she is hungry and tired. Once free they let her go her own way, and she can return to the wild horses, but she will know that not all humans are the enemy that must be feared.

That is the work of the messenger that flies in mid-heaven. The one who declares everlasting good news to those who dwell on the earth, saying in a loud voice “Fear God and give him glory [give credit where credit is due] because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, and so worship, [submit to], the one who made the heavens and the earth and sea and fountains of waters... (Rev 14:6,7)

God made two unconditional promises. One was after the flood when he said he would never deal every living thing a blow just like he had done (Gen 8:21) and the other was to Abraham after he had attempted to offer up Isaac. He said to him ..."'By myself, I do swear, is the utterance of Jehovah ... because you have not withheld your son your only one, I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens...(Gen 22: 16-18).

In the first century John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, who considered themselves better than the rest ... do not presume to say to yourselves as a father we have Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise children to Abraham from these stones... (Mt 3:9) Those that heed the call to, 'Fear God and give him glory, and who worship the one who made the heavens and the earth and sea and fountains of waters , are those stones,(Gen 22:17).

So if you are prepared to get stuck in and do the work of the messenger in mid-heaven that brings everlasting good news to people stuck in the mire of this world. Then get cracking. You won’t be especially commissioned or sent out, mostly you will be working hunched over your own keyboard. But Jesus had foretold that this work would be done, (Mt 24:14; Rev 14:6). Mark put it succinctly (Mk 13:10) ...Also in all the nations the good news must be preached first
LRW~

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#286 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
Continuing on from post 283. In post 284, Stranger enquired about the messenger position of Rev 14:6,7 asking:
..."Has that position been filled yet?
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
That position is open to anyone and all who are keen to learn the following and apply it.

Hi Coccus,

You might want to reread those scriptures, this position is not open to just anyone. Many bring their needles but don't know how to sew. This was another angel in John's vision that Jesus Christ signified by his angel to him. (Rev 1:1-2)

You were asking about the messenger somehow being the internet medium or at least the possibility of it, and I asked really if you could expand on that portion of your topic and then we got side tracked, for a good reason by the Way!



Stranger, (Dan 4:11)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 682
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#287 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 weeks ago

Stranger wrote:
2 weeks ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
Continuing on from post 283. In post 284, Stranger enquired about the messenger position of Rev 14:6,7 asking:
..."Has that position been filled yet?
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
That position is open to anyone and all who are keen to learn the following and apply it.

Hi Coccus,

You might want to reread those scriptures, this position is not open to just anyone. Many bring their needles but don't know how to sew. This was another angel in John's vision that Jesus Christ signified by his angel to him. (Rev 1:1-2)

You were asking about the messenger somehow being the internet medium or at least the possibility of it, and I asked really if you could expand on that portion of your topic and then we got sidetracked, for a good reason by the Way!

Stranger, (Dan 4:11)
Hello Stranger,

Thank you for clarifying. I'm not sure how you equate the first messenger sent by Jesus to the one at Rev 14:6, check the first post of this thread post 1. I said the position is open to anyone because anyone can write or speak online. God is their judge, and the criteria for judgement is whether they adhere or ignore the sayings of Jesus. They may not even be aware of what Jesus taught, (Jhn 12:47-49; Rom 2:12-15) and that is also taken into account.

For example watch this Youtube video of Vladimir Putin's reply to Joe Bidden's comment in a BBC interview, where he called Putin a killer. Turn on the auto-translate subtitles, and read what Putin says and then compare it to what is written at Mt 7:1-5.



I am certain the above exchange does not go unnoticed. All one's words and actions including the circumstances are taken into account at the time of judgement, and it is God's heavenly messengers that sort out the fish (Mt 13:47,48)

A little more on the messengers of Revelation. In Greek, another, as in English can mean an additional angel/messenger, or a different one. Usage: other, another (of more than two), different., i.e. and I saw another strong angel descending from heaven...(Rev 10:1). In this case, he was different because he was not one of the seven messengers with trumpets (Rev 8:2 to Rev 11:15). And it is quite clear that this one descended from heaven. No more messengers/angels are mentioned until the first messenger Rev 14:6 ...And a saw another/different messenger flying in mid-heaven.. Since he is the first of three, it must refer to a different messenger entirely from the earlier ones. He saw him flying in mid-heaven but is not told from whence he came or if anyone sent him. Then he sees a second one and a third, each with a different message for the dwellers of the earth.

The same holds true for Mt 24:5-14. Jesus simply foretells what will happen during the conclusion of the system of things. He doesn't say that those preaching the good news of the kingdom have been sent by God, but simply says many false Christs would arise, there would be wars in one place after another, lawlessness would increase, the love of the greater number would cool off, and the good news of the kingdom would be preached in all the inhabited earth before the end. It is the JW gov. body that has put it into our heads that they were commissioned to do this preaching work. But Jesus did not say that anyone was commissioned to do this but simply refers to it as one of the signs that would mark the conclusion of the system of things.

The everlasting good news that the messenger of Rev 14:6 calls out is during that same period and corresponds with Mt 24:14 ... and this good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come... Compare ... And I saw a different messenger flying in mid-heaven, and he had everlasting news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice, "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of judgement by him has arrived. And so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and fountains of waters... (Rev 14:6,7). They coincide in time and place and address those that dwell on the earth, in essence, they are the same message, the only difference being that the Rev 14:6 messenger adds the word everlasting.

The JWs considered themselves as having been appointed to do this work. Their version of the good news included the bad news about religion, i.e. if you don't get out and join us you will die. Whereas the good news of the kingdom of Mt 24:14 and the everlasting good news of Rev 14:6 is a very basic message to all, other than giving credit to the one who created all things, there are no strings attached. Ones that hear and heed that call offer themselves spontaneously and willingly. It is not up to us or anyone else to judge whether they are fit to amplify that call or not, (Mk 9:38-40).

Give it some thought Stranger. Getting out of the JW mire is not as easy as one imagines, it hangs in there and fills in the gaps in our understanding of scripture.

Jesus only foretold what would happen, he does not make it happen ... Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force in the splendour of holiness from the womb of dawn..., [from the womb of the darkness (Jhn 9:4,5), before Jesus, the light of the world, returns] (Ps 110:3). There are untold millions out there stuck in the mire of their culture who will offer themselves willingly once they understand what is required... And it must occur in the final part of the days ... when the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains ... and many people will certainly say come you people and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah... and he will instruct us in his way and we will walk in his paths... (Isa 2:3). This message applies to all, including the men of the house of Jacob, those who ... have forsaken your people, for they have become full of what is from the East and they are practisers of magic like the Philistines... (Isa 2:5,6). The message appeals to those who have become aware of the mire of this world and want to pull free.

It is a fresh clean message that starts with the basics ... Fear God and give him glory... worship the one who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.... The old message and the new are not compatible. One either keeps the one and disdains the other, or one is like the merchant who on finding this kingdom pearl of great value, sells everything he has to buy that pearl. One must throw out, discard the old accumulated treasures in our storehouse of knowledge to make room for the new (Mt 13:44,45, 49, 52; 1Cor 13:9,10).

Yes, writing on this forum might require that one knows how to sew a little bit because here one is dealing with those who believe they have been saved and there is a lot of unlearning to be done. But at the end of the day it is not up to us, but up to the angelic harvesters who have been designated to sort out one from the other. (Mt13: 47-49; 13:30,41). It's their job, not ours.
LRW~

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#288 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
Give it some thought Stranger. Getting out of the JW mire is not as easy as one imagines, it hangs in there and fills in the gaps in our understanding of scripture.
Hi Coccus,

Thank you, and yes, I know it's not easy. Some can swim/crawl out on their own, some need a rope thrown to them, and then there are those whose arms are too far in the mud to reach up out of it to catch the rope. I've been around the organization since I can remember and even before that, so yes I know what you're saying, even though one may be out of the swamp, you still have to clean the mud off your feet.

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
I'm not sure how you equate the first messenger sent by Jesus to the one at Rev 14:6,
I didn't equate the messengers, but as I know it, it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The messengers were all deployed by Jesus to communicate to John (a bondservant), so that he could relay it to other fellow bondservants. It would be in vain to try and make heads or tails of the different symbolic figures that are in the writings of what John was visioning that's shortly to occur.

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 weeks ago
Yes, writing on this forum might require that one knows how to sew a little bit because here one is dealing with those who believe they have been saved and there is a lot of unlearning to be done. But at the end of the day it is not up to us, but up to the angelic harvesters who have been designated to sort out one from the other. (Mt13: 47-49; 13:30,41). It's their job, not ours.

I think you put everything on the money, hit the nail on the head, darted the bullseye with your post Coccus.


Stranger, (1Cor 14:31)

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#289 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

Deborah's Tree wrote:
I've been associated with the Witness religion most of my life. Baptized over 50 years ago, lived through the 1975 debacle, trusted in leadership who were only human, lived a life half-lived because they claimed to "know" what no man or woman could know....the mind of God.

They trusted in numbers, chronology, dates, assumptions, in thinking God's spirit was with them and only them, always guessing but never truly KNOWING! They did not know because God was not telling them; but, no matter, they would go ahead anyway. From Russell to Rutherford, to Knorr and the present Governing Body they insisted on thinking they could light the darkness of the future. They failed to trust in God. They failed to listen to Christ...

At present there are too many unknowns to make even an educated guess on who the King of the North will turn out to be in the end. The world is in flux, the "sea" is being whipped up by the internet's social media there is no telling where they will go or what they will do. There is no knowing where a powerful King of the North will rise.

But that's not the point. The point is we do not know; so it's better to keep our religious powder dry until we do know. Otherwise we can mislead ourselves and others.

I do not know; so I wait on God.


Deborah
Not the exact same words but close:
Stranger wrote:
1 week ago
I didn't equate the messengers, but as I know it, it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The messengers were all deployed by Jesus to communicate to John (a bondservant), so that he could relay it to other fellow bondservants. It would be in vain to try and make heads or tails of the different symbolic figures that are in the writings of what John was visioning that's shortly to occur.


Stranger, (Job 4:8)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 682
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#290 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Stranger wrote:
1 week ago
Stranger wrote:
1 week ago
I didn't equate the messengers, but as I know it, it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The messengers were all deployed by Jesus to communicate to John (a bondservant), so that he could relay it to other fellow bondservants. It would be in vain to try and make heads or tails of the different symbolic figures that are in the writings of what John was visioning that's shortly to occur.
Stranger, (Job 4:8)
Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 5
Continued

Thank you Stranger for telling us why you believe as you do. I don’t recall Deborah’s Tree post on this. But for me, understanding what is written is an ongoing learning process. About 15 years ago I went through Revelation meticulously, trying to connect the sequence of events and eventually gave up, but this time around, what previously had made little sense is falling into place. Perhaps now because the events described therein are occurring it is the time when Revelation is meant to be understood. Or it might be that because I have managed to clean off a bit more of the mud I understand it differently. The availability of online Interlinear and textual information also helps, and the changes on the world stage are all contributing factors. When the WT society came up with its teaching the world was a different place. Zionism was admired, then came WW1 and WW2, the atom bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima and the cold war. The WT views were formed from an American perspective during a period when the world was aflood with war propaganda and cold war hysteria, which would have influenced their thinking, and like America, they believed that they were special and were the answer to the world’s woes. But that is yesterday’s mindset. Today people no longer see the world as unipolar ...Unipolarity in international politics is a distribution of power in which one state exercises most of the cultural, economic, and military influence... So rather than looking at the errors of the past, is it not better to think, perhaps if I had been a member of the JW governing body at that time I might have thought and reasoned exactly as they did. What this means is that what we understand today is different from what we understood then, and will differ from what we understand tomorrow or the day after that. Like a child coming to know and understand its father, coming to know our heavenly Father and learning about ourselves and this world is a continuous ongoing process.

You say:
I didn't equate the messengers, but as I know it, it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The messengers were all deployed by Jesus to communicate to John (a bondservant) so that he could relay it to other fellow bondservants
I am not sure if by that, you are implying that Jehovah fulfils what he foretells, i.e. he makes it happen. From memory that is what the JWs implied. If that were the case, it would make Jehovah responsible for the harm done by 'man dominating man' to his injury. It is a very Jewish view. Because they could not obey the law perfectly they replaced God's written word with the teaching of the Rabbis who dissect the law into minutiae and then find ways to obey the letter of the law and ignore its spirit, i.e. ...you heard that it was said you must love your neighbour and hate your enemy... Mt5:43. The law does not say that.

The way I understand it is that Jehovah knows human nature very well and foretells what will happen. The Blessings and Maledictions of De 27:12 to De 30:1-7, also cf. Lev 18:27, 28, foretold what would befall Israel in the case of national obedience and non-obedience. It doesn’t mean that Jehovah punished the nation if they disobeyed the law, but it meant that he removed his protection and support.
God foresees what will happen and when the wrongdoing has reached its limit, he acts, i.e. (Gen 6:1-6; 11:6). Once God saw the direction the early church was taking he could predict the final outcome and presented a detailed version of the conclusion of the system of things to John to write down for those who would see its fulfilment. Jesus already knew that the Christian church that would follow him would deviate from what he had taught and that is why he said when he commissioned the eleven ... “Look I am with you until the conclusion of the system of things...", (Mt 28:20). He supported and blessed the proliferation of Christianity not because it was right but because it was the means to preserve his sayings and the writings of the OT to our day.

God does not override man’s free will, but lets him do his own thing and learn at his own pace, at the same time foreseeing and foretelling what will happen, i.e. what would happen if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of self determination. At the time of the flood he put a spanner in the works, even as he did at the time they started building the tower of Babel to slow down humanity’s return to the despotism and depravity of the pre-flood days. At that time he laid plans to introduce a law to teach humanity what was good and what was bad, i.e. like a parent teaching their toddler what feels good and right at the time isn't necessarily good or right, and what feels bad and wrong at the time isn't necessarily bad or wrong.

Satan has done his darnedest to portray Jehovah God as despotic, and has used religion to promote this picture. But it is Satan that is the control freak, not Jehovah God our creator. He is keen to see his human son grow to maturity (Pr 8:30,31) where he will be fit to take up the work for which he was created, namely to care for all carbon life in this biosphere, called earth.
LRW~

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests