Revelation

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Stranger
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Re: Revelation

#291 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
Thank you Stranger for telling us why you believe as you do.
Hi Coccus,

Well, the real reason I believe that Way is because that's how it reads. With or without the Jujutsu of the internet. Christ, and when I say Christ I am talking about Christ in Heaven who is the Grand Master of all art forms. (Isa 45:7) He is the one and only that's equal to the Father, those Two I can tell you for a certainty are as One with the Power of the Holy Trinity and much more than that. They have the Lord of Host's, Jehovah of Armies, myriads of Heavenly warrior and peacekeeping angels, with Michael being the Chief with the most feathers who is commanding those myriads. Yes, Satan has his opinions and his minions, but someone with your level of degree now, can easily and skillfully defend themselves from them.
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
When the WT society came up with its teaching the world was a different place. Zionism was admired, then came WW1 and WW2, the atom bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima and the cold war. The WT views were formed from an American perspective during a period when the world was aflood with war propaganda and cold war hysteria, which would have influenced their thinking, and like America, they believed that they were special and were the answer to the world’s woes. But that is yesterday’s mindset. Today people no longer see the world as unipolar ...Unipolarity in international politics is a distribution of power in which one state exercises most of the cultural, economic, and military influence...
Always keep this Scripture in mind when listening to the media, or might I say "paying vision to it". (Matt 24:6) Stay awake on the internet, we all know of the countless thieves roaming the tangled web. (Rev 16:15)




Stranger, (Lu 17:30)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#292 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 6

Continuing on from post 285, and 287 here

In post 287 above I featured Putin’s reply to Bidden and noted that Putin appeared to apply the counsel of Mt 7:1-5

Looking further afield one can see it not only applies to JWs but to all individuals in all organizational structures of this world, be they religious or secular. The systems of this world are an outgrowth of the adversary using human proxies to forward his agenda, i.e. they may not be under his direct control but are manipulated by him.

Daniel speaks of the time when sleepers would wake up ...some to everlasting life and some to indefinitely lasting abhorrence (Dan 12:2). Does that mean some are inherently bad and some are inherently good? No, I don’t think so, because it says that many would cleanse and whiten themselves and that others would not and therefore could not understand (Dan 12:9,10). It is up to the individual as to whether they will make the effort to cleanse and whiten themselves or not. Those that do will be refined (Mal 3:1-4; cf De 31:25-29; 33:8,9). So the cleansing and whitening of oneself is the first step, which each one does at their own pace.

But does the awakening only apply to those who have a religious background? I doubt it, even as Jesus said in his illustration of the eleventh-hour workers in the vineyard ... In this way the last one will be first and the first one last...(Mt 20:16; 8:8,10,11)

Listen to this man, whose upbringing appears to have been completely devoid of a belief in God. At the time of his interview, he had only just pulled free from the mire. He talks about his experience amongst the upper echelon of the banking fraternity. It is in Dutch, but one can turn the auto-generated subtitles on to auto-translate - English. Listen closely to what he says from around 16:55 and 19:30 where he mentions the Bible



His awakening did not come in a flash and a conversion to a belief in God, but it was an awakening in his heart and the knowledge that he could not continue to do what he had been doing.

The creator God, like a loving just father, does all that he can to give his children the best chance of meeting the requirements necessary to make them fit for the job, i.e. to be custodians of this wonderful planet he prepared for carbon life ... and I kept on beholding and there were thrones placed, and the Ancient of days sat down ... And the court took its seat and there were books that were opened... And the rulership dignity and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens are given to the people who are the holy ones of the highs, [adj. plural, hover curser over parsing below 'most high' here Dan 7:18 & here, Dan 2:27], Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, [cf Rev 14:6], and all rulerships will serve and obey them... (Dan 7:9,10,27)

This is the everlasting good news of the messenger that flies in mid-heaven.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation

#293 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 6,
Continued (1)


In the video post 292 above, starting around 20:20. Ronald Bergman says that most in the inner circle were Luciferians who believed it was the true religion and that all the others were false. He had been invited as a guest and describes what went on but when he was invited to participate in child sacrifice, it was the breaking point for him. He said that Luciferianism has existed for thousands of years. If that is the case, is there a record of this practice among Jews and is it recorded in the Bible? Check out the Judaic site Chabad.org here, The Tragic History of Molech Child Sacrifice
In biblical times there were numerous false gods that were popular in the ancient pagan societies, and, at times, among the Jewish people as well. Throughout the Tanach, there are many references to a rite named Molech, which involved passing children through fire, with many warnings from G‑d to not observe it
.
But check the site where the question is fully answered. Molech, from melekh is king with the vowels for shame added to the pronunciation, is also referred to as Malcham (Jer. 49:1,3; Zeph 1:5), Moloch at Acts 7:43, cf Amos 5:26, Malcam at 2 Sam 12:30; 1Chron 20:2, and Milcom at 1Ki 11:5,7,33. At Jer 32:35 Molech is associated with Baal. It has been suggested that Moloch is a title rather than a name of a god

So, as Ronald Bernard said, child sacrifice has been practised for thousands of years, and it is still practised today. But he called it Luciferianism. Lucifer is Latin for light bringer, ... How you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you, who were disabling nations! (NWT), or ...How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!, (NKJV Isa 14:12).

So what does it say about this Lucifer/the bringer of light, (Isa 14:12), when did he begin his rule?

Although this Molech/king had his adherents including jews from ancient times, it was not until the middle of the 5th century BC that he subverted the Aaronic priesthood. Moses had castigated a sector of the Levites, saying ...For I well know your rebelliousness and your stiff neck. If while I am alive with you today you have proved rebellious in behaviour toward Jehovah, how much more so after my death... For I well know that after my death you will without fail act ruinously... (De 31:27,29). Before he died he admonished the Aaronic sector of Levi, "Your Thummin and Urim belong to the man loyal to you, whom you put to the test at Massah, You began to contend with him at the waters of Merribah, [they had quarrelled with Moses, Ex 17:2-7]. The man who said to his father and his mother, 'I have not seen them,' and even his brothers he did not acknowledge, and his sons who observed his covenant he did not know... (De 33:8,9). In other words, he told them that the one they chose for the office of high priest must be prepared to do as he had done.

The Aaronic priesthood is the army of heavens referred to at Dan 8:9-12. For the timeline and more details, see my reply to Kerry post 33, here, where I said in part
From this point onward at Dan 8, this heavenly army of Dan 8:10,11 is referred to as a she ... And an army, [fem], she is given over/against the constant feature because of transgression, and she [fem. army], keeps throwing truth to the earth and she accomplished this and prospered... (Dan 8:12).
This army of priests thus became the wife of Lucifer/the bringer of light. Lucifer was their Baal/husbandly owner. Since then successive earthly princes have served as proxy husbands of this army in the earthly sphere, (cf Rev 14:4).

The changes made to the Hebrew text, making it conform to what was then believed, was the beginning of the transgressing. In explanation of the vision of Dan 8: 9-14, the heavenly messenger said to Daniel "Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation" ...(Dan 8:19, cf Dan 11:36). So what follows is what will occur in the time of the end.

And in the final part of their kingdom, [this refers to the 4 kings that had emerged after Alexander the Great, Dan 8:22], when the transgressings have come to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance. Note, it does not say transgressors, but it is a plural verb participle (see biblehub snip below), that refers to an ongoing process that started in the 5th century BCE when the changes were first introduced by the Sopherim/scribes, see post 33, here.

Image

The transgressings came to 'a completion' when the Bible was translated into modern languages incorporating all the changes to the Hebrew text and the LXX, including replacing God's name 'Jehovah,' with LORD. To make sure compare Dan 8:23 in the LXX Appostolic Interlinear, here. The 1984 edition of the NWT went part of the way to re-establishing the original text and it replaced Gods name, Jehovah, where they thought it should go. With online interlinears and lexicons available, what was written in the original language can now be re-established. And we can be thankful for all those who stick their neck out to uncover these 'transgressings,' and all that has been hidden. Jesus said ...therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered and no secret that will not become known...(Mt 10:26). This is part of the waking up and cleansing foretold at Dan 12:2,3,4,9,10, which is now in progress.

Yesterday, I did not understand, today I do, and tomorrow I will understand more.

In the final part of the denunciation, in the appointed time of the end... there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings... and his power must become mighty, but not by his own power, [the one empowering him is Lucifer/bringer of light], And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the holy people. And according to his insight he shall cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs and during freedom from care he will bring many to ruin... Dan 8:19.24,25. This is now in the pipeline.

Thus empowered by his husbandly owner Lucifer, this king is the symbolic woman of Rev 18:4 who says in her heart, I sit a queen I am no widow. And another voice from heaven says ... “Get out of her my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins... Her ride on the eighth beast will be her last (Rev 17:11,12,16)
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#294 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 weeks ago

Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 6,
Cont. (2)

In post 293 above I said:
In the final part of the denunciation, in the appointed time of the end... there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings... and his power must become mighty, but not by his own power, [the one empowering him is Lucifer/bringer of light]...
Isaiah chapter 14, where Lucifer is mentioned, deals with what will happen after this fierce king comes to his end (Dan 8:25) The chapter starts off, ...For Jehovah will show mercy on Jacob, and he will yet certainly choose Israel...(Isa 14:1). We have been conditioned to understand this as a tautology, i.e. that Jacob is the same as Israel, but it isn't. In this prophecy, Jacob refers to the direct descendants of Jacob, and Israel refers to those that have persevered with God and men... (Gen 32:28)

Isaiah's entire 13th chapter through to Isa 14:27 consists of a vision that concerns Babylon. He writes ...The pronouncement against Babylon that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw in a vision, (Isa 13:1). However, it is not about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon but is a pronouncement against Babylon the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth, (Rev 17:18).

How so?

Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon was captured by stealth overnight and remained intact with minimum loss of life and continued to be a city of renown. In 331BC Babylon surrendered to the Macedonian king Alexander the Great, who confirmed its privileges and ordered the restoration of the temples. Alexander, recognizing the commercial importance of the city ...Alexander’s conquest brought Babylon into the orbit of Greek culture, and Hellenistic science was greatly enriched by the contributions of Babylonian astronomy ...After a power struggle among Alexander’s generals [cf. Dan 8:22,23] Babylon passed to the Seleucid dynasty in 312. The city’s importance was much reduced by the building of a new capital, Seleucia on the Tigris...Babylon (inserted text and underline mine)

Compare this with ...Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel with fury and burning anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment and that it may annihilate the sinners out of it. The very stars of heavens in their constellations ...will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not shine, and I will certainly bring home [its own badness] upon the inhabited world, and their own error upon the wicked themselves... and I shall make mortal man rarer than fine gold an earthling man, [adam], rarer than the gold of Ophir... (Isa 13: 9-13; cf. Mt 24:29; Rev 6:13,14)
(Isa 13:22) ...And it is near, her time and her days will not be prolonged ...For Jehovah will show mercy on Jacob and will yet certainly choose Israel...(Isa 14:1) As one can see the vision flows seamlessly from Isa 13:22 to Isa 14:1.

Reading on from there one must keep in mind that here Jacob refers to Jews, and Israel to the perseverers with God, ones that Jehovah chooses and thus names. ...And God went on to say to him...No longer is your name to be called Jacob, but Israel will your name become. And he began to call his name Israel (Gen 35:10). Jacob was the first one chosen and thus named, but this 'choosing' has not yet been finalized and the scroll sealed. (Rev 7:3,4).

For Jehovah will show mercy on Jacob, and will yet certainly choose Israel and settle them, [Israel], upon their own soils, [cf.Dan 12:2],

And strangers must be joined to them, [Jacob], and they must attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And people,will take them and bring them to their own place.

And the house of Israel will possess them
, [Jacob and their attached strangers], in the soil of Jehovah as menservants and maidservants, and they, [Jacob and strangers], capture those holding them captive, and have in subjection those driving them to work...(Isa 14:1,2)

And you will take up this proverbial saying against the king of Babylon ... "How has the one driving [others] to work come to a stop, the oppressor come to a stop? Jehovah has broken the rod of the wicked ones, the staff of the ruling ones
...(Isa 14:4,5).

And at Isa 10:20 speaking about the same day, it says ... And it will certainly occur in that day, that those remaining over of Israel, and those who have escaped of the house of Jacob, will never again support themselves upon the one striking them, and they will certainly support themselves upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel in trueness....

From these verses, it is clear that Jacob's descendants, and Israel the perseverers with God were, and most still are, deceived by the fierce king of Dan 8:23-25, who is Lucifer's concubine who claims to be no widow (Rev 18:7). She has ruled them and used them to accomplish her works for centuries (Isa 10:1-3). Among them are the ones who in that day say to Jesus ' Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?, but he calls them workers of lawlessness, (Mt 7:22,23). And that is why Jehovah’s messenger calls out to all those in servitude, in whatever capacity to Babylon ...Get out of her my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins... (Rev 17:18; 18:4)...

After the two symbolic witnesses have been figuratively killed, i.e. silenced, and then come to life and get called up to heaven (Rev 11:7-9,11,12), they are vindicated. With their death penalty overturned, A great fear falls on those beholding them. And in that hour a great shaking occurs, and a tenth of the city, [that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth], falls. And seven thousand names of men are, [figuratively], killed by the shaking, and the rest become frightened and give glory to God... (Rev 11:7-9, 11-13). (To confirm the changed words in the quoted Bible verses above, click on the links of words in italics)

In that hour the effeminized harlot king Babylon the Great is broken ... without a hand (Dan 8:25).

And a second messenger flies in mid-heaven saying ... “She has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink the wine of the anger of her fornication (Rev 14:8). And it is then that the ten horns of the 8th beast, (Dan 7:24,25; Rev 17:11,12), turn on the great city Babylon and eat up her fleshy parts and completely burn her with fire ... For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, even their one thought, by giving their power to the beast ,(Rev 17:13,16,17).

When this effeminized king who is the concubine of Lucifer is killed, Isa 14: 9-22 says in part ... Even Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you coming in. At you, it has awakened those impotent in death, all the goat-like leaders of the earth. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. All of them speak up and say to you, ‘Have you yourself become weak like us? ...Oh how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, [Lucifer],son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling nations! As for you, you have said in your heart, ‘To the heavens, I shall go up, above the stars of God, I shall lift up my throne... I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the highest one. However, down to Sheol, you will be brought, to the remotest parts of the pit... Those seeing you ...will give close examination even of you, [saying], 'Is this the man that was making kingdoms rock, that made the productive land like a wilderness and that overthrew its cities... “And I will rise up against them... “And I will cut off from Babylon, name and remnant and progeny and posterity is the utterance of Jehovah... (Isa 14:9-22)
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#295 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 weeks ago

Chapter 20

Prelude to the thousand-year reign – Part 6,
Cont. (3)

Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of judgement by him has arrived, and so worship the one who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters... (Rev 14: 6,7).
In post 274 I said:
This is the first time in the history of humankind when people no longer believe in a God that created all things.
And believers and atheist have been going at it hammer and tongs ever since. How did we reach this impasse? Is it a result of Luciferian plots and schemes? Or is it the progression of human thought, i.e. we’re no longer in the dark ages?

Or is something heretofore not considered at work?

When Nebuchadnezzar's dream tree, picturing his rule and administration, was cut down by heavenly decree it was banded with copper/bronze and iron bands to stop its regrowth ...to the intent that people living may know that the highest is ruler in the kingdom of mankind... (Dan 4:15,16,17). The copper/bronze and iron bands represent a Greek and Roman mindset, (Dan 2:32,33,39,40) that would precede democratic rule (Dan 2:41)

A brief look at history shows how the copper and iron mindset has kept the world in thrall and held the stump’s regrowth in check until ... people living may know that the highest is ruler in the kingdom of mankind... Knowing human nature the heavenly court had ordered the tree stump to be banded because they had foreseen the tortuous path humanity would take before they were ready to come to know God the creator of heaven and earth. First, they would reach the stage, even as Nebuchadnezzar had done when they thought that they were the makers and providers of their own destinies, (Dan 4:30), a time when godlessness and atheism ruled the day ... Let its, [the stump's], heart be changed from that of mankind and let the heart of a beast be given it... (Dan 4:16). They had foreseen a world ruled by godless beast-like rule and had already foreseen the need of the messenger in mid-heaven that would call out ... “Fear God and give Him glory... worship the one who made the heavens and the sea and fountains of waters... (Rev 14:6,7).

What Jesus had taught, briefly touched that which was buried deep in the heart of mankind, but he knew that his teaching would be abandoned by the religion that followed him, (Jhn 9:4,5). At that time humankind was not ready, but what he taught was duly recorded and preserved for the time when humanity would be ready to come to know their God (Mt 11:27). How so?

Christianity and Hellenistic philosophies experienced complex interactions during the first to the fourth centuries...As Christianity spread throughout the Hellenic world, an increasing number of church leaders were educated in Greek philosophy. The dominant philosophical traditions of the Greco-Roman world then were Stoicism, Platonism, Epicureanism, and, to a lesser extent, the sceptic traditions of Pyrrhonism and Academic Skepticism. Stoicism and, particularly, Platonism were readily incorporated into Christian ethics and Christian theology...
Christian engagement with Hellenistic philosophy is reported in the New Testament in Acts 17:18 describing the Apostle Paul's discussions with Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. Christian assimilation of Hellenistic philosophy was anticipated by Philo and other Greek-speaking Alexandrian Jews. Philo's blend of Judaism, Platonism, and Stoicism strongly influenced Christian Alexandrian writers such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria, as well as, in the Latin world, Ambrose of Milan... Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated Greek thought in writing,
  • "Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects
... It was not until the fusion of Platonic and Aristotelian theology with Christianity that the concepts of strict omnipotence, omniscience, or benevolence became commonplace. The Platonic Theory of Forms had an enormous influence on Hellenic Christian views of God (Christianity and Hellenistic philosophy) (underline and bold mine)

The Renaissance rediscovered much of Classical culture and revived the notion of humans as creative beings, and the Reformation...but in the long run no less effectively, challenged the monolithic authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
...For Martin Luther as for Bacon or Descartes, the way to truth lay in the application of human reason. Received authority, whether of Ptolemy in the sciences or of the church in matters of the spirit, was to be subject to the probings of unfettered minds...
Inevitably, the method of the reason was applied to religion itself. The product of a search for a natural—rational—religion was Deism, which, although never an organized cult or movement, conflicted with Christianity for two centuries, especially in England and France. For the Deist, a very few religious truths sufficed, and they were truths felt to be manifest to all rational beings: the existence of one God,...the existence of a system of rewards and punishments administered by that God, and the obligation of humans to virtue and piety... ..the more radical products of the application of reason to religion: scepticism, atheism, and materialism
... ( Encyclopaedia Britannica(underline and bold mine).

They had gone part of the way, but still believed in the Greek-inspired almighty God with his system of rewards and punishment as being the God of the Bible, and this was their stumbling block. This is not the God of the Bible nor did Jesus teach this (Mt 5:45; Jhn 9:2,3; Lu 13:2). Regardless, this view of God with a system of rewards and punishments endures to this day in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. As pointed out in the post 293 above this view of God was introduced into the Hebrew OT text around 450 BC by the Sopherim to make it conform with what was then believed about God. At that time Grecian/Hellenistic influence had already made inroads among the intelligentsia of the Persian Empire, that together with their Babylonian experiences served to reshape their view of their God as the Almighty God. (Alexander 1, of Macedon ). For more, see post 33, here. After Jesus died the intellectual scholasticism of the Pharisees and scribes quickly reasserted themselves in Christology. And it is this that ultimately led to atheism because it produced a dichotomous image of God.

How so?

The Problem of Evil In theology and the philosophy of religion that arises for any view that affirms the following three propositions: God is almighty, God is perfectly good, and evil exists...“Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent? Is he able, but not willing? is he malevolent? Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?” Since well before Hume’s time, the problem has been the basis of a positive argument for atheism: If God exists, then he is omnipotent and perfectly good; a perfectly good being would eliminate evil as far as it could; there is no limit to what an omnipotent being can do; therefore, if God exists, there would be no evil in the world; is evil in the world; therefore, God does not exist. In this argument and in the problem of evil itself, evil is understood to encompass both moral evil (caused by free human actions) and natural evil (caused by natural phenomena such as disease, earthquakes, and floods)... Often the reality of evil is treated as cancelling out whatever evidence there may be that God exists —e.g., as set forth in the argument from design, which is based on an analogy between the apparent design discerned in the cosmos and the design involved in human artefacts....
Thus, Hume devotes much of the earlier parts of his Dialogues to attacking the argument from design, which was popular in the 18th century. In later parts of the work, he discusses the problem of evil and concludes by arguing after all that the mixed evidence available supports the existence of a divine designer of the world, but only one who is morally neutral and not the God of traditional theistic religions
, (bold and underline mine).

Did Hume have a point? Yes, of course he did, and the subject is even debated amongst believers in God on forums such as this. And it is for this reason that many started to believe in the then equally dichotomous theory of evolution rather than the Biblical account of creation.

Interestingly late in the 19th and the early 20th century, many of the mavericks that stuck their neck out to introduce egalitarian systems of fair play in labour, education, women’s rights, equality of race, etc. were independent thinkers and atheists, not Christians. Christians for the most part, even to this day still maintain pyramid-like, top-down authority structures. WW1 and WW2 and countless wars in between and after are still fought in the name of God espoused by traditional theistic religions. And yet this is not what Jesus taught and died for. His principles and what he stood for had undermined the teaching of the traditional Judaic religion and that is why he had to die. (Jhn 11:47,48). Which was a similar battle atheist and mavericks had to fight for equal human rights. So, if not from Jesus, from where did they get their impetus to fight the fine fight? Could it be that the seven times of Dan 4:16 had come to an end, and like Nebuchadnezzar humankind was beginning to come to its senses?

When the heavenly court had decreed that Nebuchadnezzar's tree stump be banded with copper and iron to stop its regrowth the heavenly watcher said: However leave its rootstock itself in the earth... and let its heart be changed to that of a beast and let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth... and let seven periods of,[ 5732. iddan from 5713c. iddah], menstruation pass over it... Could it be that at that time the bands were removed, and the stump began to regrow and its beastly heart was changed back to the heart of mankind, man made in their creator's image? Nebuchadnezzar who had served as the prototype came to his senses, saying: ... my understanding itself began to return to me... and eventually came to the conclusion that a God existed in the heavens whose ...works are truth and his ways are justice and ... those who are walking in pride he is able to humiliate... (Dan 4:46,37). His journey along the road of understanding prefigured humanity's journey along the same road.

And that is why the messenger flies in mid-heaven declaring a simple unvarnished truth to all, including atheist... Fear God and give him glory for the hour of judgement by him has arrived, ...and so worship the one who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters... (Rev 14:6,7). And what is this judgement with which humanity will be judged. Jesus had said: If anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him ... He that disregards me and does not keep my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day: because I have not spoken of my own impulse, but the Father himself, who has sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. Also I know this commandment means everlasting life, therefore I speak just as the Father has told me, so I speak (Jhn 12:47-50).

This Father of humanity, unlike the Greco-Roman view of one almighty God with a system of rewards and punishments administered by that God, has allowed man made in his image to grow up, learning from their own mistakes, much like a responsible parent who wants their child to grow up and be able to shoulder adult responsibilities.
LRW~

Bobcat
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Re: Revelation

#296 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Just as a side note, here is a post that discusses the results of some research I did regarding the band[ing] of iron and copper (or possibly bronze or brass) in Dan 4:15, 23.


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#297 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 weeks ago
Just as a side note, here is a post that discusses the results of some research I did regarding the band[ing] of iron and copper (or possibly bronze or brass) in Dan 4:15, 23.

Bobcat
Thank you Bobcat, I appreciate your input.

I checked the BH Interlinear site and as you rightly pointed out 'band' is a singular masc. noun. In English, the word band is a collective noun if it refers to a group, i.e. band of musicians, which could be referred to as ‘it’ or ‘they.’ But if the 'band' is a ring, i.e. a wedding band, it is not a collective noun. One might have a titanium, silver wedding band. The iron being mentioned first, e.g. a band of iron and copper, is open for interpretation.

Somewhere along the line, while checking your links, I came across the proposal that Nebuchadnezzar's dream tree may represent man's rule over the earth. Let us see if this is feasible.

Jehovah did not tell Adam to rule over Eve or humankind, but told them to have in subjection animal kind (Gen 1:28). Patriarchal rule resulted from their eating fruit from the tree of self-determination. From that time man has dominated man to his injury (Gen 3:16; 4:17,19,23,24; Ec 8:9).

At that time Jehovah told the serpent/ nachash/Lucifer/light bringer ... I shall put enmity between you, [masc.], and the woman, and between your seed, [his earthly seed, masc.], and her seed,, [her earthly seed masc]. He, [the woman's seed], shall bruise you in the head, [Mt 24:30, Rev 20:1,2,3], and your, [the serpent's earthly] seed will bruise him, [the woman’s earthly seed], in the heel ,[the bruising of the woman’s seed is temporary Rev 11:7,8,11]... (Gen 3:15)

Jesus called the scribes and Pharisees 'Serpents and offspring/seed of vipers (Mt 23:33; De 32:15,16,17). This earthly seed of the serpent has bruised/subjugated the seed of the woman from early times (Rev 6:9,10,11; 11:7,8; Dan 7:25). Jesus spoke about their future judgement and condemnation when he said ...that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilt on earth, from the blood of righteous Able to the blood of Zechariah, son of Barachia whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to you, All these things shall come upon this generation... The word 'generation' is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'toledoth,' it should say family or clan, i.e. ... shall come upon this family/clan. See the left-hand column under Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance Or toldah {to-led-aw'}; from yalad; (plural only) descent, i.e. Family, and check the right-hand column for usage.

Jesus spoke in Hebrew to his compatriots. https://www.academia.edu/38286619/Inerr ... rolls_docx
The number of Hebrew texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls suggests that the language of Judea in the time of Christ was not Aramaic, as is commonly taught, but Hebrew (we began this discussion in chapters 4 and 29.) The Scriptures themselves tell us that the language was Hebrew: for example, the book of Acts says Jesus spoke in Hebrew (Acts 26:14), and that Paul spoke in Hebrew (Acts 21:40). Pilate’s inscription above Jesus' cross was written in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew (Lk 23:38)... Julio Trebolle Barrera writes: The linguistic map of Palestine around the turn of the era and at the moment when Christianity was born is marked by great differences in language. In Jerusalem and Judaea, Hebrew was spoken for preference, with Aramaic as a second language (underline mine)
See also 'Discovering the language of Jesus' https://www.academia.edu/s/8e7ba3f52d

Concerning the seven times passing over the stump of the tree (Dan 4:16), if Nebuchadnezzar’s tree does turn out to represent human rule over mankind, it will be possible to calculate the duration of the seven periods of menstruation when the two symbolic witnesses are figuratively killed and the covenant is kept in force for the many for a further 3½ day years (Dan 9:20; Rev 7:9). For more detail, see my replies to Marina posts 28 and 30, here
LRW~

Bobcat
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Re: Revelation

#298 Post by Bobcat » 6 days ago

Hi CI,
In English, the word band is a collective noun if it refers to a group, i.e. band of musicians, which could be referred to as ‘it’ or ‘they.’ But if the 'band' is a ring, i.e. a wedding band, it is not a collective noun. One might have a titanium, silver wedding band. The iron being mentioned first, e.g. a band of iron and copper, is open for interpretation.
That was a good way of illustrating how "band" (singular) could be taken singularly ("band") or collectively ("banding"). In the case of Daniel 4:15, 23 it is really up to how the translator understands things. Many commentators take the reference to both iron and copper as implying two bands, which could be referred to as a "banding." My purpose in the linked post was to show that there was an equally good reason for seeing it as a single band of iron, with copper added as a weatherizer, given the fact that the iron was going to be exposed to the elements for as much as seven years.

The watcher assured the king that the existence of the band was a sign that his throne would be secure for him. (Dan 4:26) So one could see the added copper as signaling that the watcher wasn't just "whistling dixie." (There's one for you Stranger!)

Somewhere along the line, while checking your links, I came across the proposal that Nebuchadnezzar's dream tree may represent man's rule over the earth.
No, I was proposing that Nebuchadnezzar's seven times was representing Satan's rule over human kingdoms. (See this post under the sub-title, A Clue to a Possible Second Fulfillment. Or, if you use Chrome browser, this link may take you directly to that sub-title.)

I hope you keep doing well in this pandemic.


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 1938
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Re: Revelation

#299 Post by Stranger » 6 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
6 days ago
So one could see the added copper as signaling that the watcher wasn't just "whistling *Dixie." (There's one for you Stranger!)
You know I'm right on it Bobcat,

"If we never see the Pearly Gates, we've walked through the Promised Land."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAwlj9wqFnI



Stranger, (Rev 21:21)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#300 Post by coccus ilicis » 5 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
6 days ago
Bobcat
I hope you keep doing well in this pandemic.
Bobcat
HI Bobcat

I'm well, thank you for enquiring. NZ has lifted flight restrictions between NZ and Australia, so it is not such a big deal here anymore.

You say:
The watcher assured the king that the existence of the band was a sign that his throne would be secure for him. (Dan 4:26) So one could see the added copper as signalling that the watcher wasn't just "whistling dixie
... I was proposing that Nebuchadnezzar's seven times was representing Satan's rule over human kingdoms.
Do you see the problem I have with that interpretation? If the tree represents Satan's Rule and the band secures it, what does the heart of the beast that is given the stump represent?

God had given humankind authority over the earth (Gen 1:28) and did not rescind it after they had eaten from the fruit of self-determination (Ps 8:4-6). Gen 3:15 indicates Satan would produce a seed, which he did, and that seed has always gravitated to the ruling echelon of humanity. But the woman also produced a seed. That seed would be at enmity with Satan's seed. The psalmist, Asaph describes it this way ... For I became envious of the boasters when I would see the very peace of the wicked people, they are not even in the trouble of mortal man,[enosh), they are not plagued the same as other men, [adam], therefore haughtiness as served as a necklace for them ... they scoff and speak about what is bad, about defrauding they speak in an elevated way (Ps 73:3,5,8). The Psalmist wanted to understand why this was so and came to the conclusion ...Surely on slippery ground you set them, you make them fall in ruins. O how they become an object of astonishment in a moment. They have reached their end, they have been brought to their finish...(Ps 73:17,18,19). When Satan had offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world (Mt4:8,9), he could do so, not because they belonged to him, but because he controlled them. There is a difference. The issue has from the very beginning always been one of humankind's loyalty.

Interestingly DNA is passed on unscathed through a woman's seed In human genetics, the Mitochondrial Eve (also mt-Eve, mt-MRCA) is the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all living humans. In other words, she is defined as the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman. ...The male analog to the "Mitochondrial Eve" is the "Y-chromosomal Adam" (or Y-MRCA), the individual from whom all living humans are patrilineally descended....Mitochondrial Eve.

Thus the Bible mentions two kinds of men enosh, in the NWT is rendered mortal man. These descended from those of Eve's sons that mated with mortal humanoids that existed outside the garden of Eden, (Gen 4:14, 17-24). And adam is rendered earthling-man, denoting an unchanged DNA lineage from mitochondrial Eve.

It is the reason why early Hebrews wanted their sons to choose women from within the family, women whose lineage they were sure of, (Gen 26:34; 28:1,2). Though Frowned upon, intermarriage did take place ( Gen 27:46;34:8,9,14,15,16). And that is why the Psalmist says ... What is mortal man, [enosh], that you keep him in mind. And the son of earthling-man, [adam], that you take care of him? So Jehovah cares for both mixed and unmixed descendants of Eve's DNA. ...You also proceeded to make him a little less than the gods, [elohim pl.], And with glory and honour, you crowned him. You make him dominate over the work of your hands; Everything you have put under his feet... (Ps 8: 4, 5, 6).

It is their loyalty to Jehovah that Satan challenges, saying ..."Skin in behalf of skin and everything a man has, [enosh], he will give in behalf of his soul... (Job 2:4)

Also, at the time Nebuchadnezzar had the dream he was a servant of Jehovah (Jer 25:9) and it was not until he attributed what he had achieved as Jehovah's servant to himself that the tree was chopped down and banded, (Dan 4:29, 30,31). So in what way could the tree represent Satan's rule over mankind?
LRW~

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