Revelation

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Kerry Huish
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Re: Revelation

#321 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

CI wrote: -
And I must admit I have an aversion to dealing with a doctrine, i.e. that Jesus's redemption sacrifice was necessary to redeem humankind from sin, a doctrine that gained traction some two hundred years after Jesus had died.
This being the case, I would like to withdraw my further comment post #315.

Truth is: -

Acts 4:11,12 11Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

If you cannot accept this truth you have no business in Christianity.


Regards

Kerry

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#322 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

CI wrote: -
And I must admit I have an aversion to dealing with a doctrine, i.e. that Jesus's redemption sacrifice was necessary to redeem humankind from sin, a doctrine that gained traction some two hundred years after Jesus had died.
The ONLY situation that Christ's redemption sacrifice would not be ABSOLUTELY necessary in, would be if you were not born in sin.

Romans 5:8,9 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

By your teaching that it is NOT NESSASARY for salvation, having an aversion towards it, not only are you remaining in your sins but you are wallowing in them.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so death passed onto all men, for all have sinned.

These words are most fitting: -

Hebrews 5:11, 12 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Regards

Kerry Huish

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Re: Revelation

#323 Post by Stranger » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
you have no business in Christianity.
That's why I like Coccus, unlike many others, she's not trying to start a business out of Christianity.

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
I would like to withdraw my further comment post #315.
You better watch it now! Don't say things you will regret later. (Different gifts for those that exist.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5jnu6oKV_o


Stranger, (Heb 11:4)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#324 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
CI wrote: -
And I must admit I have an aversion to dealing with a doctrine, i.e. that Jesus's redemption sacrifice was necessary to redeem humankind from sin, a doctrine that gained traction some two hundred years after Jesus had died.
This being the case, I would like to withdraw my further comment post #315.
Truth is: -
Acts 4:11,12 11Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
If you cannot accept this truth you have no business in Christianity.
Regards
Kerry
Hello, Kerry and Stranger,
Thank you for continuing to consider this subject.

Kerry, you say:
Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected...Jesus is which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else for he is the stone builders rejected
I agree with you 100%, But then you say:
If you cannot accept this truth you have no business in Christianity
And I agree I have no business in Christianity. But tell me, how is this statement connected to the one above it? What does Christianity, (Christian/anointed), have in common with the name of Jesus, which means 'he comes to be saves?'

The reason I have an aversion to dealing with this subject is that it deals with deception.

Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament is no longer a spoken language and even scholars are unsure of how the Kione Greek Aorist verb ought to be translated. Strictly speaking, it is not a tensed verb as we have in English, but is an overview verb.
...the aorist tense 'presents an occurrence, in summary, viewed as a whole from the outside, without regard for the internal make-up of the occurrence. This contrasts with the present tense and the imperfect, which portray the action as an ongoing process. It may be helpful to think of the aorist as taking a snapshot of the action, while the imperfect (like the present) takes a motion picture, portraying the action as it unfolds... 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. D. B. Wallace

One way to explain would be if I said to you: 'they sing'. The expression does not tell you when they sing, if they are singing now, if they always sing, or if it is something they do for a living, i.e. they are a choral group. In this case, sing is an overview or snapshot of something they do, where the Kione Greek aorist verb would be used.

Translators have tended to let doctrine govern how they render verbs in English. For instance, the present tense verb sing, see link Rev 14:3, here. Out of the list of Bibles, the Berean Literal Bible is the most accurate because in this verse 'sing' is a 'present indicative active verb,' The other versions have put it into reported speech, retelling what John had said he saw. John, however, is describing what he sees in the vision as it occurs, it is a first-hand eye-witness account... they sing , [present tense], a new song. See, Interlinear Rev 14:3, here, and hover your cursor over the light blue letters beneath each verb and you will see that in each case it is present tense. John is not telling us what he saw, but what happens in the vision as it unfolds. Since this is God’s word as communicated to him through Jesus, ought one not to stick to the original wording as far as possible.

If they have done this with an ordinary tense, like the present tense, what have they done with the aorist verb, which does not have an English equivalent?

As I pointed out in post 319 above, first-century disciples determined that he was the Christ/Messiah-King, and although Jesus had forbidden his disciples from viewing him as such, (Mt 16:20), they had done so nonetheless. And it, and the original sin doctrine came to be a stumbling block to both houses of Israel (Isa 8:14). How so.

The original sin doctrine was formulated while Kione Greek was still a spoken language.

Original sin is the Christian doctrine that humans inherit a tainted nature and a proclivity to sin through the fact of birth... Theologians have characterized this condition in many ways, seeing it as ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt ...The doctrine of original sin began to emerge in the 3rd century but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" ...
...Despite the lack of a notion of original sin, by the 1st century, a number of texts did discuss the roles of Adam and Eve as the first to have committed sin. Wisdom of Solomon states that "God created man for in corruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil" (2:23-24).
, (underline mine).

Image

Jesus would have been aware of these texts doing the rounds that hypothesized the roles of Adam and Eve as the first to have committed sin.

Augustine's (Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis; 13 November 354 – 28 August 430, primary formulation of original sin was based on a mistranslation of Romans 5:12. Paul uses much of the same language observed in 4 Ezra and 2 Baruch, such as Adam-death associations. Paul also emphasizes the individual human responsibility for their sin when he describes the predominance of death overall "because all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)... For the first century after the writings of Paul were written, Christians wrote little about the story of the fall of Adam and Eve more broadly. It is only when the writings of authors like Justin Martyr, Tatian, and so forth are produced in the second half of the second century onwards, that increased discussion on the story of Adam's fall begins to be written. (bold and underline, mine)

Since it was what Paul wrote at Rom 5:12 that led to the formulation of this doctrine, let us see what Paul said there and in the verses leading up to it. Starting from Rom 5:6. If you click on the right arrow at the top of the verse at this link, it will take you to the next verse. I will use the NWT translation, and I will render each verb in accord with the original to the best of my ability.
  • For indeed, Christ, while we are being , [pres. participle[, weak dies, [aorist] for ungodly men at the appointed time. For hardly will anyone die, [future], for a righteous [man]; perhaps for a good man someone would dare to die, [aorist infinitive]. But God recommends, [present] his own love to us, in that while we yet being, [pres. participle],sinners, Christ for us dies, [aorist]. Much more therefore, since we are being justified, [aorist pass.participle], now by his blood, shall we be saved, [fut. pass.], through him from wrath. For if, when we are being, [pres. participle], enemies we are being, [aorist passive], reconciled to God through the death of his son, much more are we being reconciled, [aorist pass. participle], we shall be saved, [future] by his life. And not only that, but we are exulting, [pres. participle], in God through whom we now receive, [aorist], the reconciliation, (Rom 5:6-11),
Blue print is the bible text, the underlined words, the verb and the black insert is the parsing. When Paul said at Rom 5:12 ...
  • just as through one man sin enters/comes, [aorist active], into the world and through sin, death passes/spreads, [aorist active], to all men who sin , [aorist active]
he may well have had the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction in mind. The one who sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god, saying:
  • True the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, [cf Isa 8:14, see post 319, here], Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth, [cf Jhn 6:63], and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence, [cf. Rev 19:15], But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan... with every powerful work... and with every unrighteous deception for those who a perishing as retribution, because love of the truth they do not receive, [aorist middle voice, in themselves], that they might be saved, [aorist infinitive passive]... And because of this God sends, [present tense], an operation of error to them that they may get to believe, [aorist infinitive], the lie...In order that they may be judged, [aorist subjunctive], all those not believing, [aorist participle], the truth, but taking, [aorist participle], pleasure in unrighteousness... (2Thess 2:3-12)
And it is by means of this deception that sin spreads to all men who sin. These ones Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth (cf.Jhn 6:63) the sword that comes out of his mouth (cf.Rev 19:15) at the manifestation of his presence, (2Thess 2:8)

Yes I have an aversion to dealing with this because at the time the individuals formulating this doctrine would still have understood Kione Greek, but changed the tenses of the verbs when they translated it to Latin.
The Latin Vulgate rendering of Romans 5:12 is:
  • Propterea sicut per unum hominem peccatum in hunc mundum intravit, et per peccatum mors, et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit, in quo omnes peccaverunt.
(Bible Gateway passage: Romanos 5:12 - Biblia Sacra Vulgata. Which translated into English states:
  • Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
(From: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:12 - Douay-Rheims 1899 https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Vulgat ... ed?share=1

Why did they do this? The only reason I can come up with is that it gave them power. The church replaced Jesus, as the intercessor/mediator between God and man. From that point onward. The priest was the only one who could forgive sins, thus neutralizing the power of Jesus’s words.
Image

however, Jesus had said...
  • He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day: because I have not spoken of my own impulse, but the Father himself, who sent me has given a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. Also I know that this commandment means everlasting life (Jhn 12:48-50)
    ...Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man.... (Mt15:11).
    ...It is the spirit that is life-giving, , the flesh, [Jesus's body], is of no use at all. The sayings I, [Jesus], have spoken to you are the spirit and are life (Jhn 6:63)
LRW~

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#325 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 months ago

Since it was what Paul wrote at Rom 5:12 that led to the formulation of this doctrine, let us see what Paul said there and in the verses leading up to it. Starting from Rom 5:6. If you click on the right arrow at the top of the verse at this link, it will take you to the next verse. I will use the NWT translation, and I will render each verb in accord with the original to the best of my ability.
  • For indeed, Christ, while we are being , [pres. participle[, weak dies, [aorist] for ungodly men at the appointed time. For hardly will anyone die, [future], for a righteous [man]; perhaps for a good man someone would dare to die, [aorist infinitive]. But God recommends, [present] his own love to us, in that while we yet being, [pres. participle],sinners, Christ for us dies, [aorist]. Much more therefore, since we are being justified, [aorist pass.participle], now by his blood, shall we be saved, [fut. pass.], through him from wrath. For if, when we are being, [pres. participle], enemies we are being, [aorist passive], reconciled to God through the death of his son, much more are we being reconciled, [aorist pass. participle], we shall be saved, [future] by his life. And not only that, but we are exulting, [pres. participle], in God through whom we now receive, [aorist], the reconciliation, (Rom 5:6-11),
Blue print is the bible text, the underlined words, the verb and the black insert is the parsing. When Paul said at Rom 5:12 ...
  • just as through one man sin enters/comes, [aorist active], into the world and through sin, death passes/spreads, [aorist active], to all men who sin , [aorist active]
he may well have had the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction in mind. The one who sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god, saying:
  • True the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, [cf Isa 8:14, see post 319, here], Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth, [cf Jhn 6:63], and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence, [cf. Rev 19:15], But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan... with every powerful work... and with every unrighteous deception for those who a perishing as retribution, because love of the truth they do not receive, [aorist middle voice, in themselves], that they might be saved, [aorist infinitive passive]... And because of this God sends, [present tense], an operation of error to them that they may get to believe, [aorist infinitive], the lie...In order that they may be judged, [aorist subjunctive], all those not believing, [aorist participle], the truth, but taking, [aorist participle], pleasure in unrighteousness... (2Thess 2:3-12)
And it is by means of this deception that sin spreads to all men who sin. These ones Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth (cf.Jhn 6:63) the sword that comes out of his mouth (cf.Rev 19:15) at the manifestation of his presence, (2Thess 2:8)
You have wrongly concluded that Paul had in mind the man of lawlessness when he wrote Romans 5, because of your aversion, your aversion blinds you.

Paul also spoke similar words to the Corinthians where he made things more clearer.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Because of your aversion to the teaching, that Christ's sacrifice was ABSOLUTELY NESSASARY for salvation, then you close your eyes to this teaching, but you open them wide for anything other.

It seems you have accepted 'another' Jesus because of this and encourage / mislead others into following you.
Again, Paul wrote to the Corinthians about the dangers of developing this attitude.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Peter also wrote similar expressions and warnings regarding those who deviate from the clear teaching's.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

That you cannot accept that Jesus became the Christ when in the flesh and have an aversions to the fact that his sacrifice is absolutely nessasay for salvation, this is nothing short of astonishing and a perversion.

Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Truth is, you are preaching another Jesus, but not the one the Bible speaks of...


Kind Regards

Kerry

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#326 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
3 months ago

Truth is, you are preaching another Jesus, but not the one the Bible speaks of...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Hello Kerry,

I am preaching the sayings of Jesus, the once he commissioned his disciples to teach. And I am preaching what is written in the original language of the Bible. If that is what you mean, when you say
I am preaching another Jesus
Then you are quite right. I am preaching what is written in the Bible before its meaning was obscured by layers of mistranslation.

I am not about to go through all the scriptures you quote/cite above to show you where the verbs have been changed. It is something one must do for themselves. Paul understood his own writing perfectly and knew what he said and what he didn't say. But, as Peter said, some of his sayings were hard to understand and were being twisted (2Pe 3:15,16). Paul also said that the teaching they had at that time was partial, would be done away with when complete knowledge arrived (1Cor 13:9-12). The spirit that came upon them at Pentecost, was an empowering spirit (Acts 1:6,7,8), that enabled them to do what they had been commissioned to do. But it was a temporary spirit that did not teach them all things, (1 Cor 13:9), whereas the spirit of truth that Jesus would ask the father to send to those who love him and observe his commandments would stay with his disciples forever (Jhn 14:15,16). He said that before his return, this clean (holy) spirit of truth would bring back to their minds all the things he had said, and would teach them all things (Jhn 14:25,26).

What happens to one who loves Jesus and observes his sayings, is that they receive this spirit of truth, which moves them to make an effort to scrape away the obfuscating varnish of modern language translations in order to expose the brilliance and power of the original words underneath. When Paul said that God lets an operation of error go to them because they do not accept the love of the truth (2 Thess 2:9,10), he refers to those who would rather believe what has been promulgated by the substitute intercessors, who have seated themselves in the temple of God. Those who love truth make the effort to see what God's word actually says and distinguish between God's word's that Jesus spoke, and the sayings of men - be they those of Peter, Paul, Matthew or any of the early church writers and the writings of any one of us in this forum, or other preachers. It is not mere chance that easily accessible tools to do this for oneself are now available. Nor does one need to be a scholar to learn how to use them. All one needs is to love Jesus and to observe his commandments, and have a love for truth. This spirit of truth does not visibly manifest itself and it is not something one can pass on to another. It is a ...spirit of truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it... (Jhn 14:17).

In the first century those who loved Jesus and observed his commandments were led by the spirit of his mouth, his sayings, even as Paul was. He said ...for as many as are led, [leading themselves, present passive, middle voice], by God's spirit, [the sayings of Jesus, cf Jhn 12:48-50] these are sons of God... (Rom 8:14). These ones who love Jesus and observe his commandments no longer live in accord with the flesh, and as Paul says ...If you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, [the spirit of Jesus's sayings, Jhn 6:63], you will live... (Rom 8:13). This spirit was in first-century followers of Jesus while he was yet alive, as he said ...You know it, [the spirit of truth], because it remains with you, and in you... (Jhn 14:17). But in order for this spirit of truth to remain in them after he had died, Jesus said they needed to ...Remain in me and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains on the vine, in the same way neither can you, [ bear fruit], unless you remain in me ...If anyone does not remain in me, he is cast out as a branch and it is dried up... This is my commandment that you love one another ... you are my friends if you do what I am commanding you... I no longer call you slaves because a slave does not know what his master does, but I have called you friends, because all things I hear, [aorist], from the Father I make, [aorist], known to you... (Jhn 15:4-15). Notice he does not call them brothers but friends. Jesus himself did not know when he, the Son of Man would return (Mt 24:36), but at that time the spirit of truth would precede him ..."While remaining with you I have spoken these things to you. But when the helper the spirit of truth arrives, which the Father will send in my name, [Jesus, Yehoshua/'He comes to be' Saves], that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I have told you... (Jhn 14:25,26)

This spirit would remain with them forever. Because as Paul had said ...Look I tell you a sacred secret we shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we, [those at that time who love Jesus and observe his sayings], shall be changed...(1Cor 15:52)

This precedes the thousand years of the messianic rule ... And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days... And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abysss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them, [silence them]... And after three and a half days the spirit of life from God enters into them, and they stand upon their feet, and a great fear falls upon those beholding them. And they hear a loud voice from heaven say, "Come on up here" ... And the seventh angel blows, [aorist], his trumpet. And loud voices in heaven say, "Has become [aorist middle voice], the kingdom of the world, the kingdom of our Lord, [Jehovah], and of his Christ/Messiah,[cf Ps 2:5,6], and he will rule forever and ever." (Rev 11:3,7,11,12,15). This spirit of truth is now at work in those who love Jesus and observe his commandments (Jhn 14:15,26).

Every branch bearing fruit the Father cleans, that he may bear more fruit (Jhn 15:1,2). They will be changed in an instant before they are called up to heaven, where they sing a new song that only they can master (Rev 14:3)
LRW~

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#327 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

I fear that there is no rebuke that could help CI, but maybe by her false step there might be salvation for others.
So for the sake of other readers, I will speak one more time here regarding the importance of Jesus blood sacrifice and how it is vital for our salvation.

Without Jesus blood sacrifice there would be no new covenant.

Hebrews 9:15-18 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to establish the death of the one who made it, because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive. That is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Matthew 26:27,28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Without the new covenant there would be no forgiveness of our sins.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

CI is teaching that Jesus blood sacrifice is not necessary and vital in relation to our salvation, she has an aversion to it.
CI talks about singing a new song, yet the ones that sing this song openly acknowledge that people have been purchased by means of Christ's blood, CI is not singing in harmony with what is written.

Revelation 5:9,10 And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

There will be those who treat with contempt the blood of the Christ. Again Paul warned these ones: -

Hebrews 10:28, 29 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is clear that CI has been misled from the way and has deviated from the primary doctrine of the Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3, 4 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Be careful that you are not ensnared along with CI into treating with contempt the blood of Jesus sacrifice that has been poured out for you.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Kind Regards

Kerry

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Re: Revelation

#328 Post by Stranger » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
CI talks about singing a new song, yet the ones that sing this song openly acknowledge that people have been purchased by means of Christ's blood, CI is not singing in harmony with what is written.

Kerry,

She's not just talking about it, she's singing it. The voices in the dark that you have never heard are coming through for her.

"Rob the dead they don't feel a thing, and keep the living for another day." You bought and sold me with your lying word, now it's time you learn a new cord.(Rev 14:3)

You can lend your herd, but you're not gonna skin her herd, you're knife just ain't sharp enough. Find you a stone that's not a drone, then possibly you'll get the edge you need to understand why we work alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLXbpE8nsD0


Stranger, (Pr 11:24)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#329 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
I fear that there is no rebuke that could help CI, but maybe by her false step there might be salvation for others.

Without Jesus blood sacrifice there would be no new covenant.

Hebrews 9:15-18 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to establish the death of the one who made it, because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive. That is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Matthew 26:27,28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Without the new covenant, there would be no forgiveness of our sins.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Hello Kerry,

I realize you mean well and are concerned for me and anyone who might be swayed by what I say. There is no doubt that the spirit of the words we speak influences others, it is our strength and it is also our weakness because it temps us to care for those who agree and to denounce those who don’t. Not one of us has finished cleansing themselves and whitening themselves, and thus none of us has been refined, (Dan 12:10).
I agree with your statement:
Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance,
But when you say:
Without the new covenant there would be no forgiveness of our [???] sins
This needs a little more explanation.

During the last supper, Jesus said to his disciples, "Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins". This raises the question, who are the 'many' referred to? Did he mean all humankind, i.e. to forgive them a sinful state that they had inherited from Adam. or did he have something else in mind. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews explains.

Consequently holy, [A primitive root; to be clean (ceremonially (cf Isa 66:17) or morally)], brothers, partakersof the heavenly calling, [calling from, 2564, kaleó, invitation], consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess - Jesus... (Heb 3:1).

Who are these ones who are ceremonially clean and who have a heavenly calling/invitation?

He then compares the high priest, Jesus, whom they confess, to the Levitical priesthood, saying, If, then, perfection was really through the Levitical priesthood... what further need would we have for another priest according to the manner of Melchizedek... there occurs a setting aside of the preceding commandment on account of its weakness and ineffectiveness, (Heb 7:11,17-19). This refers to the Law which could not make anyone perfect or complete. When Jesus came he fulfilled or completed that Law, teaching them what was needed for them to be perfect so they could become children of God, see (Mt 5:17,18, 44,45,48).

Pointing out the differences between the high priest Jesus and the high priests of the Law covenant, (Heb 7: 26-28), he says ... for if the first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second ...Look there are days coming when I will conclude with the house of Israel and the house of Judah a new covenant, (Heb 8:7,8). He then quotes JeremiahThis is the covenant I shall conclude with the house of Israel after these days is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart, I shall write it ... and they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying know Jehovah, for they will all of them know me from the least of them, even to the greatest one of them...(Jer 31:31,33, 34). This being the case, we try not to impose what we believe on others, who may not understand what is said in the same way as we do, knowing that Jehovah is the one who puts his law into their hearts and is teaching each one in their own way of understanding the matter.

Pointing to the various ordinances of the Law covenant he says ... However when Christ came as a high priest ... he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood once and for all time and obtained everlasting deliverance for us , (Heb 9:120. The Greek word for deliverance is 3085. lutrósis, redemption in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

Paul confirms this in his letter to the Galatians, saying ...Who is it that brought you under this evil influence. You, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed impaled. ...Did you receive the spirit, due to works of the Law or due to hearing by faith. Are you so senseless? After starting out in the spirit, [the spirit of the sayings of God by means of Jesus, Jhn 6:63], are you now being completed in the flesh... For all those who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written: "Cursed is everyone that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them. Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because "the righteous one will live by means of faith. Now the Law does not adhere to a faith, but he that does them, [obeys all the commandment of the Law covenant, paying all the penalties whenever he transgresses], shall live by means of them.", [cf.De 30:16]. Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law, by becoming a curse, instead of us, because it is written: "Accursed is every man hanged on a stake.", (Gal 3:1-13)

So when Jesus said: "Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." His disciples understood it to mean that he was replacing the law covenant with a new covenant, one that completed or fulfilled the law, (Mt 5:17), where forgiveness of sin did not depend on paying sacrificial penalties but in harmony with the perfect law depended on the extent one would forgive others ...forgive us our debt/transgression as we forgive those who transgress against us (Mt 6:12). See also Mt 18:23-34 and read verse 35 where Jesus says... In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with you if you do not forgive each other from your hearts...

The writer of the letter to the Hebrews understood this, And said that these holy/clean partakers of the heavenly calling/invitation will by no means teach each one of his fellow citizens and each one his brother, saying: "Know Jehovah!" For they will know me, [future], from the least one to the greatest one of them... For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sin to mind anymore... For in his saying, "a new, [covenant], he has made the former one obsolete... (Heb 8: 10,11,12,13)

Note, there is nothing here about redeeming humankind from original sin.

Jesus is the mediator of an new covenant ...because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from transgression under the former covenant. So those called/invited might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance., (Heb (9:15). These ones sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals because you were slaughtered, [aorist pass} and with your blood, you purchase, [aorist] persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you make , [aorist], them be a kingdom of priests to our God and they will reign , [future], as kings over the earth, (Rev 5:9,10).

Putting it all together, Jesus gave his blood to free/manumit persons from every tribe, tongue, people and nation from slavery so that they would be fit to rule with him. Jesus said to Jews that had believed him “If you remain in my word you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free... They replied...never have we been slaves to anyone . But they were slaves to sin, and Jesus said. Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will actually be free...(Jhn 8:31,32,36). Once his sayings had reached the most distant parts of the earth others, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation were included, (Rev 5:9,10).

Daniel was told ...And there will be many of those asleep in the dust of the earth, [adamah humankind] who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] indefinitely lasting abhorrence...(Dan 12:2). This corresponds to the letters to the congregations/1577. ekklésia, an assembly, from ek = out and Kaleo =call, summon, invite (Rev 2:1-29; 3:1-22). Thus these letters are to assemblies/communities/groups of called out/invited ones. The spirit ends his letter to each group with an admonition ...
  • Ephesus...Nevertheless, I hold this against you, that you have left the love you had at first. Therefore remember from what you have fallen, and repent and do the former deeds, if not I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.. let the one who has an ear hear...(Rev 2:1,4-7)
  • Smyrna...I know your tribulation and poverty – but you are rich- and the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan... Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer, Look the devil will keep throwing some of you in jail that you may be fully put to the test... prove yourself faithful even unto death and I will give you the crown of life ... Let the one who has an ear hear... (Rev2:8-11)
  • Pergamum ...These are the things he says, who had the long two-edged sword...I know well where you are dwelling, that is where the throne of Satan is and yet you are holding fast to my name... Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have those holding fast to the teaching of Balaam, who went teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel. Repent, therefore. If you do not... I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth ...Let the one who has an ear hear,(Rev 2:12-17)
  • Thyatira ...Nevertheless, I hold [this] against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess... and she misleads my slaves... However, I say... to all those who do not have this teaching to get to know the deep things of Satan, as they say... hold fast to what you have until I come... Let the one who has an ear hear...Rev 2:18-29)
  • Sardis... I know the deeds that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Become watchful and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God... unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief ... let the one who has an ear hear... you have a little power and did not prove false to my name, Rev 3:1,2,3,6)
  • Philidelphia ...I will give those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and yet they are lying... I make them come to a do obeisance before you ...Because you kept the word about my endurance I will also keep you from the hour of test which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth. Keep holding fast to what you have... to the one that conquers I will make him a pillar in the temple... Let the one who has an ear hear... (Rev 3:7,10,11,12,13)
  • Laodicea ...I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot... because you are neither hot nor cold I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. Because you say you are rich... but you do not know that you are miserable and poor, and blind and naked, I advise you to buy gold from me... that you may be rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested... and eye salve to rub in your eyes that you may see ... Let the one who has an ear hear... (Rev 3:14,15-18,22)
All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline, Therefore be zealous and repent, Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his house and take my evening meal with him and he with me. To the one who conquers I will grant him to sit down with me, [future] on my throne, even as I sit, [aorist], with my father on his throne. Let the one who has an ear hear what the Spirit says to the congregations - the assemblies/groups of called out/invited ones, (Rev 3:19-22).

This calling or invitation has been, is being, issued to all the above-listed groups, each with its own set of customs and beliefs. Those who look to the Bible would fit under Pergamum, which the spirit tackles with a two-edged sword (Rev 2:12-17, cf, Heb 4:12). And those of Jewish groups might come under Smyrna and Philadelphia (Rev 2: 12-16; 3:7-11). The hearing ones in these groups sing the song of Moses the slave of God and the song of the Lamb (Rev 15:3). The cleansing and whitening that each invited one who hears what the spirit says takes time. First, they realize that some of what they believe is wrong, which helps them to see more clearly. Then they see other beliefs or practices where they need to make changes, and as they do this they are being refined. Others, of those who have woken up do not do this, and they will miss out. It says concerning them ...no wicked ones at all will understand... (Dan 12:10).

Jesus described it this way: The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. And he sent forth his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. So the king sent out another invitation after he had made all the preparations for the feast and they again begged off with all manner of excuses, and some went so far as to beat up his slaves and treated them insolently. This so angered the king that he sent out his army to destroy those murderers and burned their city (cf. Mt23:38; 24:2). Then, since the marriage feast was ready, but those invited not worthy, the King said to his slaves ...Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city and anyone you find invite to the marriage feast. Accordingly the slaves went out to the roads, and gathered together all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those reclining at the table... When the king came to inspect the guests he caught sight there of a man not clothed with a marriage garment. One that had not cleansed themselves and whitened themselves and been refined, (Dan 12:10), So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here not having a marriage garment?’ Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be... For many are invited but few chosen... (Mt 22:2-14)
LRW~

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#330 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 months ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
I fear that there is no rebuke that could help CI, but maybe by her false step there might be salvation for others.

Without Jesus blood sacrifice there would be no new covenant.

Hebrews 9:15-18 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to establish the death of the one who made it, because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive. That is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Matthew 26:27,28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Without the new covenant, there would be no forgiveness of our sins.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Hello Kerry,

I realize you mean well and are concerned for me and anyone who might be swayed by what I say. There is no doubt that the spirit of the words we speak influences others, it is our strength and it is also our weakness because it temps us to care for those who agree and to denounce those who don’t. Not one of us has finished cleansing themselves and whitening themselves, and thus none of us has been refined, (Dan 12:10).
I agree with your statement:
Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance,
But when you say:
Without the new covenant there would be no forgiveness of our [???] sins
This needs a little more explanation.

During the last supper, Jesus said to his disciples, "Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins". This raises the question, who are the 'many' referred to? Did he mean all humankind, i.e. to forgive them a sinful state that they had inherited from Adam. or did he have something else in mind.
Regardless of what he had in mind, this fact remains, sins are taken away by means of Jesus's blood, end of.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Can any of us make the claim that we are without sin?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

In view of this, what is this strange singing that you are proclaiming, that Jesus blood sacrifice is not nessasay for salvation? The statement in itself is ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

The new covenant, that has been established by means of Christ blood sets us free from the law and grants us forgiveness of our sins.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to d them, ” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

Yes, not everyone will bless themselves by means of this, for example, some will teach that it is not needed. But 'many' will accept Christ's sacrifice in their behalf.

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Regards

Kerry

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