Revelation

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AmosAu3
Posts: 456
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Re: Revelation

#311 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 month ago

Hi Stranger,

Thanks for the heads up my brother.

There's been quite a number of things happening here and abroad lately, these have taken their toll on my reserves of energy, both mental and physical. I'm starting to get back on top and into the saddle again, but will be taking a back seat for a while. I'll only be posting an odd comment here and there. During this time, I've still been able to generally maintain my personal studies.

Kind regards to you my brother,
Amos.

Stranger
Posts: 2010
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#312 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

AmosAu3 wrote:
1 month ago
There's been quite a number of things happening here and abroad lately, these have taken their toll on my reserves of energy, both mental and physical. I'm starting to get back on top and into the saddle again, but will be taking a back seat for a while. I'll only be posting an odd comment here and there. During this time, I've still been able to generally maintain my personal studies.

Kind regards to you my brother,

Hi Amos,

"We got something, we both know it , we don't talk too much about it."

Our mentality is not always of a spiritual nature, but that doesn't mean we should make our spiritual nature a refugee to our mentality.

Get that saddle shined and tacked, we can always use a good rider. (writer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_LqKHzaXoU

Kind regards,

Stranger, (Job 39:18 KJV)

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coccus ilicis
Posts: 705
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Revelation

#313 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Thank you all for your replies.

You have a sharp eye Amos, and that goes for Stranger also. I wish you both well in working through any issues you may be having. Living in this world is like climbing a cinder slope, for every step forward, one slides one step back. And that is what it must have been like for Jesus when he was on earth.

I said:
'In what way is Jesus vital for humanities salvation? The short answer is, he doesn’t play any role according to the above definitions of salvation.
The above definition referred to the results of a google search. If one enters salvation meaning into the Google search box, the following drop-down list pops up.

People also ask
What is salvation in Bible?
Salvation is defined as being saved from or delivered from sin or harm. An example of salvation is when a priest converts you and you stop sinning and become a Christian. An example of salvation is when you get a job, which saves you from poverty.
How do you get salvation?
For some, the most important way to achieve salvation is through doing good works, such as giving to charity. However, other Christians focus on worship and faith. Some Christians believe that as well as having faith, people achieve salvation by following God's law, which is found in the Bible.
Why do we need salvation?
Salvation is reconciliation to God - a mending of that relationship we were created to have with Him. When our sin is forgiven (at our salvation, God forgives us of our past, present and future sins - Hebrews 7:26-27 - so when we sin again, we don't need to be saved again...), we then enter a relationship with God.
What is the difference between saved and salvation?
Saved refers to being rescued from the power of sin and Satan, while salvation refers to inheriting eternal life
Can Christians lose their salvation?
In a previous post, we discussed one of the biggest questions we may have as Christians: Can we lose our salvation? We saw the clear and definite assurance the Bible gives us that once we believe in Christ and receive Him as our Savior, we're saved eternally. We can't lose our salvation.
And so forth, (underline an italics mine).

I repeat, according to these definitions, Jesus doesn’t play any role in saving humanity.

Most reading this post already believe in God, and I know from personal experience it is all too easy to react adversely to something someone says that touches the nerve of a deeply ingrained belief. The same happened to disciples of Jesus who were traditionalist at heart when he told them “Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves... What happens at such a time is one's mind shuts down, and one stops listening. Then Jesus asked his closer associates: Does this stumble you? and added: ...It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings I have spoken to you are spirit and are life... (Jhn 6:53, 60,61,63). Now, if they had listened to all he had said and not reacted and blotted it out (Jhn 6: 26-59), they would have understood why he had said this and the point he was making. Some did, but others did not (Jhn 6:24).

So what are these words of the spirit, which are life-giving?

From a Jewish Pharisaical viewpoint, the only people that listened to Jesus were those that ... do not know the Law... and were an ...accursed people... (Jhn 7:49 ). Today they equate with those who do not believe in God, the ones to whom the messenger of Rev 14:6,7 calls out to, saying ... “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the one who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters”....

So let us refresh our memories of these sayings that are life-giving, (cf Jhn 4:14;14:25,26)
  • Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them... (Mt 5:3) This touched the heart of many of those present who were illiterate and not versed in the law. Today many similarly do not know what the Bible says but are conscious of a spiritual need. Jesus said the kingdom of the heavens belongs to such ones
  • Happy are those who mourn since they will be comforted...(Mt 5:4) Many today mourn about the bad things that are happening in the world. They will be comforted
  • Happy are the mild-tempered ones since they will inherit the earth...(Mt 5:5) Many today are mild-tempered and do not harm anyone. These ones will inherit the earth
  • Happy are the ones hungering and thirsting for righteousness since they will be filled...(Mt 5:6) How many are there out there that do not believe in God but are thirsting and hungering for righteousness, and Jesus here tells them that they will be filled
  • Happy are the merciful since they will be shown mercy...(Mt 5:7) Many who do not believe in God show mercy to others, and they will be shown mercy
  • Happy are the pure in heart since they will see God... (Mt 5:8) So too, today, many that do not yet know God but are pure at heart will see God
  • Happy are the peaceable since they will be called sons of God...(Mt 5:9) That is indeed good news for all the peaceniks of the world.
  • Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness sake since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to such ones...(Mt 5:10) Would that not touch the heart of all the whistleblowers, who have suffered unjustly because they brought that which is covered over to public attention (cf Mt 10:26)
  • Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every wicked thing against you for my, [Jesus's], sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted prophets prior to you...(Mt 5:11,12) That would include all those at the base of the altar as described in Rev 6:9-11 and those directing others to Jesus’s sayings today
He continues with a note of caution to these ones that do this ..."You are the salt of the earth, but if salt loses its strength, how will the saltiness be restored? It is no longer useable for anything, but to be thrown outside to be trampled on"... That would indeed be a shame would it not? "You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hidden when situated on a mountain. People light a lamp and set it not under a basket, but upon the lampstand and it shines upon all those in the house. Likewise let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to God who is in the heavens...(Mt 5:13-16)This makes one ask oneself, ‘Have I lost my saltiness, and am I letting my light shine?’
...Do not believe I came to destroy the Law or the prophets, I came not to destroy it but to fulfil/complete it...(Mt5: 17) He fulfilled the Law by showing us that the law was only partial knowledge, or only the first part of our education. It was introduced to make us aware of what sin - life-destroying behaviour - is. He completed or fulfilled the Law introduced by Moses, by introducing the next step in humanity's needed education, to qualify them as children of God (cf De 18:15). And it is this completed Law that Jesus refers to when he says:..Whoever, therefore, breaks one of the least of these commandments [the commandments of the completed law], and should teach mankind to that effect, he will becalled the least in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called great in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. For I say to you that if your righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens... Mt 5:19-20.

Not only is murder wrong but if one condemns another to Gehenah/hell whether verbally or in the heart, they are liable to the same outcome (Mt 5:21-23) This is perfect justice at work ... with the measure you are measuring out they will measure out to you... (Mt 7:1,2).
And taking the Law one step further, completing it, he instructs us as to what one should do in the case someone lays a complaint against us, (Mt 5:25,26)
He then goes on to speak about adultery, a problem that has caused untold misery from early times. And although this counsel is directed mainly at men, today it would apply to both men and women. He says ...everyone that continues looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart... And aware of the power of passion, once it is engaged, he uses hyperbole to drive home the lesson ...If your right eye is making you stumble (or hand) tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna, (Mt 5:27-30, Gehenna equates with complete destruction, (cf Rev 20:14).
Following on from that, he talks about another common practice, divorce, and what one should and shouldn't do. Today this would apply equally to both men and women (Mt 5:31,32)
He then deals with swearing, taking oaths or making promises, and counsels us not to do that, saying ...But let your word ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes’ and your ‘No,’ No. For what is in excess of this comes from wickedness (cf Mt 6:13)
He then deals with the natural perfect law which balances the scales of justice, (Ex 21:22,23, 24,25). It was given to make humankind aware that all wrong acts had a reciprocal or ricochet effect. And he completes that law, by teaching us how to deal with an aggressor, i.e. ...whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other also to him... etc. He is not telling us to be wimps but telling us to be strong. In such a circumstance it is far easier to hit back than to refrain. And says, instead of retaliating, one should hand over more than demanded. This makes good sense, since the one that slaps you doesn't expect this, and it catches him off-guard and completely takes the wind out of their sails, (Mt 5: 38-42).
He then says ... You heard it was said you must love your neighbour and hate your enemy,. This is a Levitical misinterpretation of the Law (see Ex23:4,5) However I say to you: Continue to love your enemy and pray for those persecuting you; that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens since he makes his sun shine upon wicked and good and makes it rain upon righteous and unrighteous... (Mt 5:43-45).

To drive the point home and make sure his disciples understood the these were not just his words, he said ... I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in darkness. But if anyone hears these sayings of mine and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day; because I have not spoken of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. Also, I know his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told [them], so I speak... (Jhn 12:46-50)

So how does one reach out to people who do not believe in God? How does one direct them to these sayings of Jesus, as instructed (Mt 28:20)? Today, some may have read Jesus's words, but those who have, for the most part, relied on traditional church doctrines provided by Google or some other search engine for an explanation and thus rejected it. They are aware of the spiritual lack in their lives and are looking elsewhere, wherever they think they might find a belief that will fill that inner yearning to believe in something greater than themselves.

Take for example someone like Russell Brand, whose videos I featured post 304, here. How does one reach out to someone like him and point him to the sayings of Jesus? He has published an audiobook, 'Revelation', links to it can be found under his youtube video here. I was intrigued and downloaded the book. Since I do not have an Amazon account, I took advantage of the free trial period. He talks about how he came to be aware of a spiritual lack or emptiness in the foreword. I have only just listened to chapter one so far and don't know if he has read the sayings of Jesus or whether he has just read or listened to what others have had to say about him. But it appears that anything he knows about Jesus has not shone like a beacon of light on a mountain; it has not had the power to draw him.

Why? Surely God’s word is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword, and pierces even to the dividing of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and their marrow and is able to discern thoughts and innermost intentions of the heart.. And so has the power to draw him. Could it be that what he has read or heard about Jesus and salvation didn't have the necessary strength to light up his heart because they were not the words of God, but were the words of men, i.e. the traditional teachings of early church fathers? Whereas Jesus spoke even as his heavenly Father had commanded him when he addressed his audience as above. The entire transcribed sermon can be found at (Mt 5:1-47; 6:1-34; 7:1-27) ...When Jesus finished his sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority and not as their scribes (Mt 7:29)

It is these words of God, the ones Jesus spoke, that is the everlasting good news that the messenger declares as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth (Rev 14:6)
LRW~

Orchid61
Posts: 592
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#314 Post by Orchid61 » 1 month ago

Goodevening to you CI,

SORRY, I mistook Googles words to be yours and it went right into my heart, so I responded by writing down my feelings about Jesus.

Love to you,

Maria🌷

Kerry Huish
Posts: 283
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#315 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Hi CI

I too mistook googles words to be your expression.
Apologies.

Kind Regards

Kerry

AmosAu3
Posts: 456
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: Revelation

#316 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 month ago

Hi Stranger,

Thanks for your thoughts, brother.

Thanks for your "Gloria" video too.

Kind regards,
Amos.

AmosAu3
Posts: 456
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: Revelation

#317 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 month ago

Hi CI,

Thanks for your reply, and another very encouraging post. Things are gradually improving for me.

I've always enjoyed the Sermon on the Mount, and the happiness's in particular.

Take care, sister.

Kind regards, Amos.

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#318 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

I'm afraid I call BS on you, CI. You're just playing with words. You didn't refute the Google statements about Jesus not playing any role. You partly agreed with it by saying that salvation comes thru obeying the words that Jesus spoke. And that the words Jesus spoke were not his anyways. (Post # 305)

All that is true in itself.

But the fact is, if Jesus hadn't been sacrificed, something he willingly agreed to let happen to him, then, it wouldn't matter how much we obeyed the words he spoke. We would still die in our sins without the ransom he paid. (1Pe 2:24; 1Co 15:3, 4, 14, 17, 18) Jesus, and what he did, not just what he said, is an integral part of our salvation. (Ac 4:12; Rev 7:10)

Maybe you missed that by accident. I don't know. But I do know that you maintain that Jesus is not yet the Christ, something even the demons were aware of even while Jesus was on earth. (Lu 4:41; 1Jn 2:22; and here for additional)

IMO Kerry's warning in post # 308 (regarding Jas 3:1) was appropriate. Some of the reasoning you use, and some of the conclusions you reach, border on undermining the very foundations of Christianity.

Of course, that's all my opinion. Take it or leave it as you see fit.


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#319 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
...
But the fact is, if Jesus hadn't been sacrificed, something he willingly agreed to let happen to him, then, it wouldn't matter how much we obeyed the words he spoke. We would still die in our sins without the ransom he paid. (1Pe 2:24; 1Co 15:3, 4, 14, 17, 18) Jesus, and what he did, not just what he said, is an integral part of our salvation. (Ac 4:12; Rev 7:10)

Maybe you missed that by accident. I don't know. But I do know that you maintain that Jesus is not yet the Christ, something even the demons were aware of even while Jesus was on earth. (Lu 4:41; 1Jn 2:22; and here for additional)

Bobcat
Thank you all for your replies, and thank you, Bobcat, for tabling the issue that is still a sticking point between us.

I didn't miss it but didn't want to sidetrack and deal with it, as I had already dealt with it at length in earlier posts. And I must admit I have an aversion to dealing with a doctrine, i.e. that Jesus's redemption sacrifice was necessary to redeem humankind from sin, a doctrine that gained traction some two hundred years after Jesus had died. But needs must, as this doctrine is just as deeply ingrained in our consciousness as was the Jewish aversion to eating flesh together with its blood, which Jesus used to make his point, saying: ...I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, for a fact the bread that I give is my flesh, in behalf of the world... and he made it worse by adding ...unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in yourself...(Jhn 6:51,52,53).

He had said this deliberately to shock them out of their complacency that they were saved. Not understanding all God had said to Noah at Gen 9:4,5,6, they had therefore concentrated on dissecting and obeying the minutiae, or the letter of the law, about not eating flesh together with its blood, even as they still do today. And by so doing, had completely missed the spirit of the law of which Jesus had given examples earlier (Mt 5:1to Mt 7:27). And Jesus had known this would happen, (Jhn 6:64).

So let us look at the circumstances when Jesus said this and see if we can calm and clear the waters because it is either his sayings or his murder that are life-giving. It can't be both. And you say
if Jesus hadn't been sacrificed, something he willingly agreed to let happen to him
Yes, he not only 'willingly let it happen,' but provoked them to make it happen, (Mt 23:15-38).

When the crowd of around five thousand had seen how Jesus had fed them with a few loaves of bread and small fishes, they took it upon themselves to make him their king (Jhn 6:14,15). Jesus knowing what they were planning, withdrew into the mountain and his disciples dispersed. Why did he do that? A mob of that size would have succeeded, and it would have been an excellent opportunity to install Jehovah’s Messiah/Christ, king, (Ps 2:6,10), would it not?

Among them would have been those who had been astounded by what he had said because he had spoken as someone having authority, and not as their scribes, (Mt 7:29). What fault did they find with the leadership of the scribes?

After Jesus had resurrected Lazarus, the chief priests and Pharisees had said ... What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation...(Jhn 11:48). Thereby admitting that they served Rome. Rome, not Jehovah, was the basis for their authority. And they had taken great care to maintain a cosy relationship with successive ruling kings since their emancipation from Babylon. But the lower classes had nothing to lose and everything to gain if they succeeded in making this man Yehoshua/Jesus king. So why did Jesus not stay to let it happen, with God’s backing it would, without doubt, have succeeded. Had not the Psalmist said ...at that time he will speak to them in his anger, and in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, [saying] “I, even I have installed my king Upon Zion my holy mountain.” Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I today have become your father. Ask me that I may give you nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession... (Ps 2:5-8) Note the psalmist is not told when the decree, “You are my Son: I today have become your Father," would take place. And so the Jews who were about to seize Jesus and make him king, determined that this was the time. Jesus, however, had not let it happen. So let us see if we can find out, why.

When this crowd eventually caught up with him, Jesus, deflecting their intent, said ..."Most truly I say to you. You are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate from the loaves and were satisfied...(Jhn 6:26). How dare he say that? They had been about to make him king, and re-establish the glory of God’s people, and here he was accusing them of being interested only in filling their stomachs. Jesus continued ...work not for the food that perishes, but the food that remains for life everlasting, which the son of man will give you; for upon this one, [the son of man], the Father, even God, has put his seal of approval... (Jhn 6:27)

What did he mean by that?

Jehovah had set a seal upon a branch of Levites that had exchanged Israel's true Rock/Tsur with the false Rock/Tsur/Tyre and had made comfort and wealth their security (De 32:4,15, cf Ezk 28:2). Moses had said their Rock/Tsur is not our Rock/Tsur ... For their rock is not our rock... For their vine is from the vine of Sodom...their wine is the venom of big snakes... Is it not laid up with me with a seal affixed to in my storehouse. Vengeance is mine and retribution. At the time appointed, their foot will move unsteadily...De 32:31-35) When Jesus was on earth this clan epitomized the priests, scribes and Pharisees that ruled in Jerusalem (cf Mt 23:13-38). So, the first seal that Jehovah affixed was to this clan of Levites and those associated with them, (De 31:24,25,27,29).

At Isa 8:16, Jehovah affixes another seal ...Bind up the testimony, put a seal about the Law on my disciples,[taught ones], ...and I will keep in expectation of Jehovah, who is concealing himself from the house of Jacob and I will hope for him... What was this all about?

At that time Jehovah had said ...for the reason that this people has rejected the waters of Shiloah [from send as at Gen 8:12] that are flowing gently... and there is an exultation of Rezin, [from 7522. ratson, self-willed as at Gen 49:5,6, see also, 7522 Gen 49:6], the son of Remalia, [from an unused root and Yah, short for Jehovah], Even therefore, look! Jehovah is bringing against them the mighty and many waters of the River and the king of Assyria, [Gen 10:10,11, cf Rev 17:1)... And he will certainly come up over all his stream beds and go over all his banks and move through Judah. He will actually flood over up to the neck he will reach. And the outspreading of his wings must occur to fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel... Isa 8:5-8

This Immanuel was Jesus ...Look there is a virgin and she must become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel, which means when translated with us is God...(Mt 1:23). This was the prophecy Jesus was sent to fulfil ...Be injurious O you people and be shattered to pieces, and give ear all you distant parts of the earth! Gird yourselves and be shattered to pieces. Plan out a scheme, and it will be broken up! Speak any word and it will not stand... For this is what Jehovah has said to me, [Immanuel] that he may make me turn aside from walking in the way of this people , [cf Jhn 6:15], saying: “You men must not say, ‘A conspiracy!’ ... the object of their fear you must not fear... Jehovah of armies – he is the One whom you should treat as holy, and he should be the object of your fear, the one causing you to tremble.” And he, [Immanuel], must become like a sacred place, and a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble, to both houses of Israel, as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem... (Isa 8:9-14). Jesus fulfilled/completed the law and it was bound up and sealed, and it came to be a trap for both houses of Israel, Jews and Christians alike who did not discern the purpose or irony of the words, ...unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood ... (Jhn 6:53) But instead of paying heed to what he had said at Jhn 6:63, Christians incorporated them as part of their belief, which came to be the focal point of their doctrinal belief, namely that Jesus's death served as a sacrifice to redeem humankind from sin. Thus completely replacing his sayings as the means of salvation. That is why Jesus had said... For false Christs and false prophets will arise and mislead many... Wherever the carcass is, [his body on the cross] there the vultures will be gathered together...(cf Mt 24: 23, 24, 28).

Jesus was that stone to strike against and a rock over which to stumble for both houses of Israel. He also knew he was to be the sheep/lamb that was slaughtered and beseeched his Father ...if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will... He was fully aware of what was ahead saying to his disciples ... the spirit, of course, is eager but the flesh is weak... and prayed again saying “My father, if it is possible for this to pass away, except I drink it, let your will take place (Mt 26:39-44). For Jehovah had said ... if he will set his soul as a guilt offering he will prolong his days and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble his soul will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge, the righteous one my servant will bring a righteous stand to many people, their errors he himself will bear...(Isa 53:10,11). He would shoulder our transgressions/debts to balanced the cosmic scales of perfect justice that required an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. So that our transgressions/debts could be forgiven to the extent we forgave those that transgressed against us... (Mt 6:12; 18: 23-35). This is what he has done for us. His death had nothing to do with Adam and Eve eating of the tree of self-determination but had everything to do with balancing the scales of justice, the unalterable natural law of measure for measure.

He came to be the sheep that would be slaughtered. At the time of his trial, he was ...like a ewe, [fem.] that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth...(Isa 53:7) They had been haranguing him but he had remained silent, ...so the high priest said to him: “Have you no answer? What is it these are testifying against you? Jesus did not answer. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ/Messiah, the son of the living God!”. He was then compelled to answer, but it was a double-barrelled question. That he was the son of God was well attested to, so he chose his words with care ...” You yourself say it, yet I say to you men. From henceforth you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, ,[cf Act 7:56], and coming in the clouds of heaven , (Mt26:62-64, cf Mt 24:30). Luke, whose letter is composed of witness statements, some of whom may have been present at the trial, adds an interesting detail. His interrogators had said ... If you are the Christ/Messiah tell us. “But he had said to them: “Even if I told you, you would not believe it at all. Moreover, if I questioned you, you would not answer at all. However, from now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God...(Lu22:67-70). Note, he refers to himself as the son of man, not Christ/Messiah (cf Mt 16:20). The question he might have asked them might have been: Who is the twig that comes up from the root in the waterless land? (Isa 53:2). If he had asked it, they would have realized what they were about to do. And so he did not ask. Mark, the young bystander who had followed him when all others had fled, reports him answering the high priest's question: ..."Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed one" ... with the words ... "I am," (Mk 13:61,62). But then Mark probably only recorded what someone who had been present at the trial had said to him at that time. Who, like the high priest, had assumed he had admitted to being the Christ/Messiah, a confession they needed to get Rome to kill him. Pilate himself did not believe it (Mk 15:2-5,9,10,13, 14,15), but he was compelled to follow Roman law.

At the time of his baptism John the Baptist called Jesus ...the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world... (Jhn 1:36) but later had his doubts. ...But John, having heard in jail about the works of Christ sent by means of his own disciples, and said to him: “Are you the Coming one or are we to expect a different one?’ (Mt 11:2,3) The truth that he was the twig that came up in a waterless land (Isa 53:1-12) and the Immanuel that would shatter them to pieces, for Jehovah was ...concealing himself from the house of Jacob (Isa 8:9,17) had been kept even from him. And all Jesus himself said about his death was ...Now there is a judging of this world, [cosmos, the Jewish world], now the ruler of this world , [the ruler of the clan of Levites and their associates who had made money their god], will be cast out, [cf Mt 23: 23-36,37,38], And yet if I am lifted up from the earth, [hanged on a stake, cf. Gal 3:13], I will draw all sorts of men to me (Jhn 12:31,32). Indeed, if he had not been killed in the manner that he was, would anyone have been drawn to him?

Jehovah had said ...For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors he was counted in; and he himself carried the sin of many people, and for the transgressors, he proceeded to interpose...(Isa 53:12). He shoulders our load of transgression so that ours would be light ...Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly of heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load light.” (Mt 11:28-30)
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#320 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi CI,
So let us look at the circumstances when Jesus said this and see if we can calm and clear the waters because it is either his sayings or his murder that are life-giving. It can't be both.
To me, this is like saying, "We need to either eat or sleep to stay alive. It can't be both." In rhetorical logic this is what is called a false dilemma (see also here).


And I must admit I have an aversion to dealing with a doctrine, i.e. that Jesus's redemption sacrifice was necessary to redeem humankind from sin, a doctrine that gained traction some two hundred years after Jesus had died.
. . . the issue that is still a sticking point between us
Yes, I'm afraid that it still is "a sticking point between us." (Mt 20:28; 1Tim 2:5-6; Jn 3:16; 1Jn 2:2; Mk 10:45; Gal 1:4; 2:20; Eph 5:2; Tit 2:14; Rom 5:8-9, 18-19)

You don't have to spend any more time on your thread here trying to convince me of your view. It's a lost cause. And I won't raise the issue here any more, seeing that it is your thread. I acknowledge that you have a right to your viewpoint.


Bobcat

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