Revelation

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#381 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
Correction to post 380 above needed.

I must have become cross-eyed from checking scripture in three languages. I should have followed my own dictum to sleep on it before posting. I said
The word ‘breathe/breath’ 4154 first occurs in the LXX at Gen 2:7 & Gen 7:22 where it refers to the breath or force of life in man and warm-blooded animals.
This should read
The Greek word, to blow, breathe, respire, #4154, occurs in the Apostolic interlinear at Ps 147:18 Is 40:24 Mt 7:25,27 Lk 12:55 Jn 3:8 6:18 Act 27:40 Rev 7:1. And the related word breath, #4157, first occurs at Gen 2:7 & Gen 7:22
Paul probably had Jhn 3:8 in mind when he coined the word. But Keep in mind that when he wrote all scripture/writings are God-breathed the writings that make up the New Testament had not been written, and the teaching of Jesus was transmitted orally, compare Lu 1:1,4 with 2Tim 3:14. But having said all that, the NT writings are absolutely necessary for us to understand what has happened, as Bobcat said in his post
for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts and helps the jury to reach a conclusion
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#382 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

checking scripture in three languages

You sound like a very talented person, CI. And if I remember correctly, you were somewhat of a world-traveler.

It's in the wee hours of the AM here. I would guess it is late PM where you are at. I hope you have a good night.
Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#383 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
checking scripture in three languages
You sound like a very talented person, CI. And if I remember correctly, you were somewhat of a world-traveler.

It's in the wee hours of the AM here. I would guess it is late PM where you are at. I hope you have a good night.
Bobcat
Hello Bobcat

Yes, it was PM when I wrote my last post.

It's not a case of being a world traveller it is because I originated in war-torn Europe and our family had moved eight times before I was eight including halfway round the world. We came to Australia as £10 immigrants. At that time Australia needed workers and it cost £10 per person. The trip from Europe to Australia by ship took 6 weeks. When we arrived I could count to ten in English, that's all. There was no special English tutoring for immigrant children but we were simply put into the class for our age. So it was a steep learning curve. But as is the case with children they learn quickly and by the time I was 11 years old I had caught up and loved reading. It is not a matter of being talented, but it is necessity that shapes us. My father had died when I was 13, and I was left without any parental support or a home by the age of sixteen and had to leave school to support myself. In those days the basic wage for girls was lower than the basic wage for boys, so those were tough times. I was young and scared. But the best thing my father passed on to me was a moral rectitude, a basic honesty, and not avoiding issues, but dealing with them when they arose. I didn't understand that at the time but do so now. I am visually dyslexic and so use the read-aloud function to hear what I have written in order to make corrections. I realize now, after re-reading post 378, a draft was submitted rather than the final copy. It was a stormy night when my computer kept losing the internet connection; again a reminder that I should sleep on it before posting. One of the advantages is that one sees things from many perspectives simultaneously rather than consecutively as favored by today's educational system. But that's another subject.

So moving on to explore new horizons and learning what needs to be learned is part of my inner make-up. With regard to languages, I am only fluent in English and can understand my native tongue, and have a smattering of Russian. I started to make an effort to come to grips with Biblical Hebrew and Greek when I understood what I had to do. I am one of those in the congregation of Pergamum where the two-edged sword is, who has heard what the spirit says to the congregation. Each of us has different talents which the master can use and exploit, see Mt 25:14,15, post 368, here.
LRW~

investigate
Posts: 29
Joined: 2 months ago

Re: Revelation

#384 Post by investigate » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
So that is why God sends an operation of error to them, that they may get to believing the lie, [cf 2Pe 3:15,16]. Yes, this lawless one, (2Thess 2:4) was already busy at that time. But at the time of the 8th beast, (Dan 7:7,8, 25; 8:24,25; Rev17:11), he will have his heyday and come to full bloom. At that time this beast that rises out of the abyss will kill the two witnesses. When this happens those serving at the altar will Jubilate.
If I understand correctly, you are saying the two witnesses being killed is future. This seems to make sense if the trumpet blasts are future (after the sealing of the 144K), and immediately before the end. I've posted elsewhere some support for this. Right before the context of the two witnesses at the end of Rev 10 - the angel tells *John* that needs to prophesy again. I suppose we may need to wait and see if the two witnesses are from heaven or modern day prophets again. But if they are modern day prophets, could this directly parallel Daniel 12:6 ("As soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish) and 1 Thessalonians 4 (being transformed to meet Jesus in the clouds)?

As a side note, there is no hailstone message as "suggested" by certain JWs. The result of the two witnesses prophecy and resurrection is that they fear God and give him glory, and this is immediately before the final trumpet blast/all things coming to and end (Rev 10:7). The hailstones later on are after the 7th bowl of anger, after the 144K come off victorious from the beast and are with Jesus, and context shows is part of the final destruction.

Proselytiser of Jah
Posts: 179
Joined: 1 month ago
Contact:

Re: Revelation

#385 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 month ago

investigate wrote:
1 month ago


As a side note, there is no hailstone message as "suggested" by certain JWs. The result of the two witnesses prophecy and resurrection is that they fear God and give him glory, and this is immediately before the final trumpet blast/all things coming to and end (Rev 10:7). The hailstones later on are after the 7th bowl of anger, after the 144K come off victorious from the beast and are with Jesus, and context shows is part of the final destruction.
I had similar thoughts, the "hailstone message" is mentioned nowhere in scripture, it's only an interpretation of the "hail" that is mentioned in Revelation, but of what form it will come, is anyone's guess. It could be literal hail, or something else. But the "warning message" I believe may come from the "two prophets" whatever or whoever they may be.

Fire from their mouths I think is similar to a sword coming from Jesus' mouth, it's a message or condeming proclamation I feel.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#386 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

On the supposed "hailstone message" of Rev 16:21, see:
1. This post and associated thread.

2. This post, which involved comments regarding a WT study that discussed Rev 16:21.

3. This post which discussed some of the literary aspects of Rev 16:19-21 and its relationship to Rev 6:12-17. The "hailstone" part is towards the bottom of the post.

4. This PDF. For the life of me I don't remember why I have this PDF linked to this topic. If anyone sees why, please let me know. :shrug:

On a subject obliquely related to the "hailstone message," here is a thread on a "famine for hearing God's Word" (Am 8:11).


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#387 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Revelation

The inception, nurture, and unveiling of the eighth beast.

In the post above I said it was experience that shapes us, and it seems much longer since I wrote that post. But in the intervening period, I’ve had an excruciating debilitating experience such as I have never had before. It started out with what appeared to be a bout of food poisoning and spiraled out of control from there. Because I live isolated in a rural area I did not go to a doctor. It started 5 weeks ago with the cat being horribly inexplicably injured and needing surgery. Now looking back, I realize other forces were at work. I am not out of murky waters yet, and have a problem focusing. In my delirium a flash of a online page appeared. It appeared again the following night and this time I tried to see what was written. All I knew was that I should ask the question, ‘Why was macceca changed.’

The post below is the result of my experience.

Unlike machinery made from metallic elements. Humans are irrational illogical in ways we have not begun to understand. A person clings unto an irrational thought or need, knowing that it is such, but without having the power to knock it off its perch. It becomes a craving that needs to be satisfied. Such is the nature of every man woman and child and such is the nature of every being. That is what makes us Individuals. Such is also the nature of every plant on this earth and below it, from the microbes to the tallest trees. And such is the nature of the very soil that nurtures it, The earth is teeming with life, God's spirit.

In the wilderness, whilst Moses was on the mountain speaking with God face to face something vile was happening on the earth. Jehovah said to Moses: "Go descend because your people whom you have brought up out of the land of Egypt have turned aside in a hurry from the way in which I commanded them to go. They had made a molten calf, a [4541. maccekah], and kept bowing down to it, (Ex 32:7,8). Questioning Aaron why he had done this, he had said: “Do not let the anger of my Lord blaze. You know that these people are evil inclined. So they said to me make for us a God who will go ahead of us because as regards this Moses, the man that led us up out of the land of Egypt, we certainly do not know what has happened to him

Although at that time a division was made between those loyal to Jehovah, and those supporting the idol of the molten calf destroyed. The irrational thought lingered and came to be a craving that raised its ugly head again and again. It occurs 28 times in scripture, see right-hand column, here, 4541. maccekah. And then at Isa 25:7,8, where its English rendering has been completely changed to read, And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples in this mountain a banquet of wine kept on the dregs filtered. And in this mountain, he will swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the people, and the woven work that is interwoven over all the nations

The only thing that I could establish is that this was done at the beginning of the industrial revolution. when the scientific methodology was being applied to Bible translation. But let’s look at the words themselves ...the envelopment that is enveloping over all the people, and the woven work that is interwoven over all the nations. A cloth is made up of warp and weft thread.
Image
This kind of accuracy is essential in machine tooling. Every spoon, knife, and fork we hold requires this kind of precision. But it applies to nothing in the living world, there are no straight lines in nature. The earth and all life teems with God’s spirit. And the problem of managing and controlling this conglomeration of living entities has concerned would-be rulers from the time in the wilderness. How does one marshal humanity into an homogenised body that would do their bidding?. Global warming has had only partial success, Now they are concentrating on Covid 19


But those in control still have the same irrational thought stuck in their head that they cannot shake. Make for us a God who will go a ahead of us in the wilderness And Aaron asked the people for gold and threw it into the fire and the maccekah calf came out.
LRW~

Orchid61
Posts: 654
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#388 Post by Orchid61 » 1 month ago

Hi CI,

So you had a lot to endure and even more.

What we all can do is, pray for you, so your health will get better soon.

Love to you,
Maria 🌷

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#389 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
1 month ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
So that is why God sends an operation of error to them, that they may get to believing the lie, [cf 2Pe 3:15,16]. Yes, this lawless one, (2Thess 2:4) was already busy at that time. But at the time of the 8th beast, (Dan 7:7,8, 25; 8:24,25; Rev17:11), he will have his heyday and come to full bloom. At that time this beast that rises out of the abyss will kill the two witnesses. When this happens those serving at the altar will Jubilate.
If I understand correctly, you are saying the two witnesses being killed is future. This seems to make sense if the trumpet blasts are future (after the sealing of the 144K), and immediately before the end. I've posted elsewhere some support for this. Right before the context of the two witnesses at the end of Rev 10 - the angel tells *John* that needs to prophesy again. I suppose we may need to wait and see if the two witnesses are from heaven or modern-day prophets again. But if they are modern-day prophets, could this directly parallel Daniel 12:6 ("As soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish) and 1 Thessalonians 4 (being transformed to meet Jesus in the clouds)?
Hello Investigate,
Thank you for joining us.

Our personal organization the system we live in runs like clockwork it is organized on the warp and weft principle as shown in post 387 above. Religion is also run on the warp and weft principle and is part of the woven cloth enveloping the entire inhabited world. We have our routines, ways of thinking that regiment us to understand things in this, or that way. And we never question it. We have become cogs in the machine.

What we know is that the events Paul speaks of precede the manifestation of Jesus's presence, and that those who love truth will not be misled into believing the lie, whatever that lie will turn out to be. And we also know that the two witnesses complete their work prior to the seventh trumpet, and that they are the same as those who are not misled.

Anything beyond that is part of our mechanistic thought patterns.

While we're on the subject, we have been conditioned to think the holy ones, the chosen, the hundred and forty for thousand, and the two witnesses are all talking about the same thing. But are they?

At Mt 24:22, Jesus said concerning the great tribulation. But unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. but on account of the chosen ones, those days will be cut short,". And then goes on to warn the chosen ones about being misled, saying, "Look I have forewarned you", (Mt 24:25. So even those who have been chosen can be ruled out.

At Rev 13:7 it says: And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and to conquer them...Here it is where it means endurance for the holy ones, those who observed the commandment of God and the faith of Jesus, (Rev 14:12).

Concerning the 144,000, we know Revelation is written in symbols, and as such, I see the number as representative of a finite number as opposed to the numberless great crowd, (Rev 7:4,9). And I saw, and look! the Lamb, standing upon Mount Zion and with him, a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads ...and they are singing as if a new song , which only they can master. It says of them these keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes, (Rev. 14:1-5). They are the first crop God has picked from among his human children, (Rev14:1-5). He knows whom he needs for the curing of the nations, (Rev 22:12), seepost 7, here. And who is there that can gainsay him?

That is all I understand at this stage.

So where are we in the stream of time?

The eighth beast rose out of the abyss in 1948. And Jehovah says, And I will call forth against him through out my mountainous region a sword... against his own brother the sword of each one will be. And I will bring myself in judgement with him, with pestilence, with blood and with flooding downpour and hailstone. Fire and sulphur I shall rain down upon his bands and the many people with him. ...A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations and he must personally put himself in judgement with all flesh, (Ezk 38:21-23; Jer 25:31).
LRW~

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#390 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 weeks ago

Further to post 389 above,

What has happened has simplified matters.
It says and they worshipped the dragon who gave authority to the beast that had the death stroke healed, the beast that was slaughtered in 70CE and that rose up out of the abyss in 1948,(cf. Rev 17:8,11, the one the harlot rides). And there was granted it, the beast, to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them , (Rev 13:7). I only speak for myself, this is what happened to me. I was conquered, smashed to bits. Here is where it means endurance for the holy ones, (Rev 14:11). And authority to act for forty-two month is given it , the beast that had the death stroke healed.

The countdown has begun.

Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation ...standing in the holy place. The mountain of Jehovah, (Isa 25:6), then let those in Judea flee, [present imperative, nothing tentative here], to the mountains

Here it is where it means endurance for the holy ones, (Rev 14: 12), Yes, indeed it dose, Yehoshua.
LRW~

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests