Revelation

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#371 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Revelation
Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses part 4
Continued pt.3a

In post 370 I said
When the God of the field told Abram to walk before him and come to be complete/perfect, he was telling him he must come to understand his heavenly Father’s work, his business. And Abraham became complete when he attempted to offer up Isaac... Like Abram, the grains of the two ears of wheat,post 359, the two witnesses, must walk before the God of the field, Jehovah, and do whatever he requires of them, “You must accordingly be perfect/complete, as your heavenly Father is perfect/complete,” (Mt 5:48)
So what is required of the two witnesses for them to come to be complete?

The one like the son of man, (Rev 1:13) says in his letter to the Philadelphians: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens. I know your deeds - look! I have set before you and open door, which no one can shut, that you have a little power and you keep my word and do not prove false to my name, [aorist, Yehoshua/Jesus], Look! I will give those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying - look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know that I love you, [aorist], Because you keep, [aorist], the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test/trial, which is being about to come, [present participle, pres. infinitive] upon the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling on the earth. I am coming quickly. HOLD fast, [pres. imperative], to what you have so that no one may take your crown. To the one who conquers - I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] any more and I will write upon him the name of my God, [Yehovah/He comes to be], and the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends from heaven , [Jerusalem, see post 12,here], and that new name of mine. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations, (Rev 3:7-13).

This letter to the Philadelphians is primarily directed at the grains of the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses, the slave to whom the master committed his belongings and who, on his return, holds an accounting with them, Mt 25:19, (post 368). Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning and you yourselves be like men waiting for their master... so that at his arriving and knocking they at once open to him. Happy are those slaves whom the master finds watching... He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside to minister to them...(Lu 12:35,36,37). Compare ...Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appoints, [aorist], over his domestics to give them their food at the appointed time [kairo, as at LXX De 32:35]. Happy is that slave if his master on having come, [aorist participle], finds him doing so, [keeping on watch, (Mt 24:41,42,45,46).

Two women will be grinding at the hand mill one will be taken along the other will be abandoned. KEEP ON WATCH therefore [present imperative], because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming, (Mt 24: 41, 42; Lu 17:35) To grind, Greek/LXX: Nm 11:8; Jdg 16:2; Ecc 12:3,4; Mt 24:41; Lk 17:35 . The reader will find, that read in context, these verses give insight as to who these two women represent.

But if the householder/slave had known at what hour the thief would come he would not have allowed his house to be broken into... You though keep ready because at an hour that you do not think likely the son of man is coming, (Lu 12: 35-37).

(Isa 22:19-22), And I will push you away from your position and from your official standing one will tear you down. "'And it will occur in that day that I will call my servant, namely Eliakim, [from el/God and qum, to raise up, ∴ God raises up], And I will clothe him with your robe, and your sash I shall firmly bind about him, and your dominion I shall give into his hand; and he must become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will put the key of the house of David upon his shoulder and he must open without anyone's shutting and he must shut without anyone's opening,.
Compare: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens...I know your deeds - look! I have set before you and open door, which no one can shut, (Rev 3:7).

To sum up thus far. Eliakim who supplants Shebna and is given the key and authority over the house of David, prefigures someone like the son of man. Who in turn, opens the door to those of Philadelphia who meet his criteria. But those who believe themselves to be Jews, who he calls the synagogue of Satan, oppose them. Both groups serve at the altar of the temple. The two witnesses are those that meet the required standard and they are the ones who torment the synagogue of satan with their prophesying (Rev 11:1, 4, 5, 6,10)


Eliakim, the one that is like the son of man has opened the door of opportunity to the grains of the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses. Will they walk through it and keep on following him wherever he goes away to, (Rev 14:4), knowing full-well what this entails?

To be continued.
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#372 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Two women will be grinding at the hand mill one will be taken along the other will be abandoned. KEEP ON WATCH therefore [present imperative], because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming, (Mt 24: 41, 42; Lu 17:35) To grind, Greek/LXX: Nm 11:8; Jdg 16:2; Ecc 12:3,4; Mt 24:41; Lk 17:35. The reader will find, that read in context, these verses give insight as to who these two women represent.

For any interested, I have a post (here) that includes discussion about the two women grinding in context (see Note # 3 at the bottom of the post).

(We now return you to our regularly scheduled program. :D )


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#373 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Revelation
Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses part 4
Continued pt.3b

Thank you Bobcat for your contribution from the common taters, We are all common taters here until some are taken along and others are left behind. Correction needed: that should read, 'contribution from the commentators.'

The author of the letter of Luke was not happy with the accredited accounts and not only re-arranged the order of the witness statements, but also changed the wording, i.e. replacing Mt 24:28, carcass with Lu 17: 37, body; substituting encamped armies for the disgusting thing (Lu 21:20,21 for Mt 24:15,16/Mr 13:14), and field/sadeh/saday, as at Gen 2:5 & Ex 6:3 for bed. Compare: Two men will be in the field one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Mt 24:40), with Two men will be in a bed; one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Lu 17:34). The question that arises is ‘why would one witness hear Jesus saying field and the other hears him saying bed. Whether Jesus said this or that, is a question for the reader to decide, see post 12, here. It appears they concerned themselves more with different issues in the late sixties C.E.

Rather than a common-tater or a dic-tater, I am more of a spec-tater

Image Back to the drawing board.

Revelation part 3 continued.

The issues that should concern us today when we observe the things written in the scroll of Revelation although the may make us happy they are no laughing matter. It was not until I started writing about the congregation at Philadelphia that I noticed that it said someone like the son of man, at Rev 1:13. When on earth, Jesus had consistently referred to himself as the son of man, but in Rev 1:13 he is referred to as someone, like , the son of man, even as it does at Dan 7:13. And yet this personage that John sees in his vision, (Rev 1:13-20), is nothing like the son of man that walked the earth two thousand years ago, (cf Act 7:55; Ps 110:1). Could it be that when the events that are described in Revelation unfold upon the earth, he is no longer called the son of man?

Keep this in mind as we continue to examine what he says to the congregation at Philadelphia. He tells them he would make those of their members who believed they were Jews, but were lying do obeisance at the feet of those who had a little power, the two ears of wheat/the two witnesses, (Rev 3:8), because they kept the word about his endurance.

What did Jesus mean by that?

He had said ... A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his Lord... If people have called the householder Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household so, (Mt 10:24, 25). At that time an intellectual snobbery existed. The officers who had been sent to arrest Jesus had come back empty-handed and the Pharisees had asked them, “You have not been misled also, have you? Not one of the rulers or Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are an accursed people” (Jhn 7:47, 48,49).

A similar snobbery exists today and a spiritual snobbery invests those who think of themselves as being (anointed or born again (as at Ex 28:40) spiritual Jews. Google invests: provide or endow someone or something with a particular quality or attribute. Jesus said he would make them know that he loved the former, (the two witnesses), and would keep them from the hour of the test, that would come upon the entire inhabited earth to put to test those dwelling upon the earth., see hour of test, here.

To the one that conquers I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God and he will by no means go out [from it] any more, (Rev 3:12). So if the two witnesses, the ones who have a little power are kept from the hour of test that is coming upon the whole inhabited earth, what must they conquer? In the first place, they have to keep their cool, maintain a calm and controlled attitude when they do their witnessing and all manner of abuse is hurled at them. After which the beast that ascends out of the abyss makes war with them and kills them and their carcasses will be displayed on the broadway of the great city, which in a spiritual sense is called Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was also impaled for a further three and a half days/years, (Rev 11:5,7,8,9,10). Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at one thousand three hundred and thirty five days, (Dan 12:12) And he, [the one like the son of man], must keep the covenant in force for the many/great for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease, (Dan 9:27).

And I will write upon him the name of my God, [Yehovah] and the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that descends from my God, and the new name of mine, (Rev 3:12). Whatever that new name that is written upon them will be, we can be sure it will not be Christian. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations , (Rev 3:13; cf Mt 24:24)
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#374 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Compare: Two men will be in the field one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Mt 24:40), with Two men will be in a bed; one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Lu 17:34). The question that arises is ‘why would one witness hear Jesus saying field and the other hears him saying bed. Whether Jesus said this or that, is a question for the reader to decide, see post 12, here. It appears they concerned themselves more with different issues in the late sixties C.E.
Hi CI,

Good eye on catching that difference between Luke 17:34 ("bed") and Matthew 24:40 ("field"). I had missed that particular difference.

As to why the difference, one thing to keep in mind is that the account in Luke happens somewhere on the road heading towards Jerusalem. (Compare Lu 17:11 & 18:31) The account in Matthew happens after Jesus has already arrived at Jerusalem. (Compare Mt 24:1) The difference in time is possibly a couple weeks to a couple of months. So that Matthew and Luke are not simply quoting Jesus on the same occasion. Thus, it is quite possible that Jesus used slightly different wording on these two different occasions. (The time difference between the two accounts is discussed briefly in my post (here), under the sub-part, Matthew Helps Explain Luke.)

Another difference in the accounts is, "In that night ..." (Lu 17:34) which would favor a night time setting ("in one bed"), whereas, Matthew 24:40 starts out with, "Then ...," which would be non-specific regarding the time of day, and thus, the "two" (Greek δύο - masculine plural) are "in the field." (See note # 3 near the bottom of my linked post above.)

Yet another difference, in this instance, is in what the two accounts are describing. Luke 17:22-37 is describing the coming judgment upon Jerusalem and the Temple (known by Jesus to take place within "this generation"). The account in Mt 24:40-41 is describing Jesus' parousia at some unknown future time (unknown even to Jesus - Mt 24:36). This might help explain, "in that night ..." for the foretold judgment on Jerusalem in Lu 17:34, which would turn out to be a very personal event for the disciples, and the somewhat less personal, "then ..." in connection with the future parousia in Mr 24:40.

One other factor that I can think of: Matthew, being one of the twelve, probably heard about what Jesus said in Mt 24:40-41 soon after Jesus told it (Compare Mr 13:3). Luke (the gentile - compare Col 4:10, 11, 14), on the other hand, had to compile his account from accounts passed down for several years. Not that this would change the inspiration of the accounts. But it would allow for the possibility that certain details had to be edited or compiled based on what Luke had available and based on his initial audience (Lu 1:3).

(I have this post cross-linked to here.)


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#375 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
Compare: Two men will be in the field one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Mt 24:40), with Two men will be in a bed; one will be taken along the other will be abandoned, (Lu 17:34). The question that arises is ‘why would one witness hear Jesus saying field and the other hears him saying bed. Whether Jesus said this or that, is a question for the reader to decide, see post 12, here. It appears they concerned themselves more with different issues in the late sixties C.E.
Hi CI,

Good eye on catching that difference between Luke 17:34 ("bed") and Matthew 24:40 ("field"). I had missed that particular difference.

As to why the difference, one thing to keep in mind is that the account in Luke happens somewhere on the road heading towards Jerusalem. (Compare Lu 17:11 & 18:31) The account in Matthew happens after Jesus has already arrived at Jerusalem. (Compare Mt 24:1) The difference in time is possibly a couple weeks to a couple of months. So that Matthew and Luke are not simply quoting Jesus on the same occasion. Thus, it is quite possible that Jesus used slightly different wording on these two different occasions. (The time difference between the two accounts is discussed briefly in my post (here), under the sub-part, Matthew Helps Explain Luke.)

Another difference in the accounts is, "In that night ..." (Lu 17:34) which would favor a night time setting ("in one bed"), whereas, Matthew 24:40 starts out with, "Then ...," which would be non-specific regarding the time of day, and thus, the "two" (Greek δύο - masculine plural) are "in the field." (See note # 3 near the bottom of my linked post above.)

Yet another difference, in this instance, is in what the two accounts are describing. Luke 17:22-37 is describing the coming judgment upon Jerusalem and the Temple (known by Jesus to take place within "this generation"). The account in Mt 24:40-41 is describing Jesus' parousia at some unknown future time (unknown even to Jesus - Mt 24:36). This might help explain, "in that night ..." for the foretold judgment on Jerusalem in Lu 17:34, which would turn out to be a very personal event for the disciples, and the somewhat less personal, "then ..." in connection with the future parousia in Mr 24:40.

One other factor that I can think of: Matthew, being one of the twelve, probably heard about what Jesus said in Mt 24:40-41 soon after Jesus told it (Compare Mr 13:3). Luke (the gentile - compare Col 4:10, 11, 14), on the other hand, had to compile his account from accounts passed down for several years. Not that this would change the inspiration of the accounts. But it would allow for the possibility that certain details had to be edited or compiled based on what Luke had available and based on his initial audience (Lu 1:3).

(I have this post cross-linked to here.)


Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

They are all good points and one can add many more possible scenarios. Thank you. Before I read your post, I was thinking about how man reflects the character traits of his heavenly Father. And how collective humankind's conduct is similar to that of angels in the spirit realm. Therefore if we want to understand the 'whys' and 'wherefores' of the human predicament, we don't have far to look. All we need to do is put ourselves under the microscope (Mt 7:1-5). When one does this, one begins to understand what this is all about.

Like their maker humans are by nature creative that is why we have progressed to where we find ourselves today. But at different stages of humanity's development, it became stuck in grooves like a vinyl record or computer CD that gets stuck playing the same tune over and over again. Why was that? From a personal level why might one eat or drink more than they should. It most likely is because it makes one feel good and one wishes to prolong the experience, but the result is addiction, enslavement to sin, and death. (Jhn 8:32,33,34).

The first collective addiction was to domination and security, coupled with religion (Gen 3:14,15,16; 4:3,23,24; 6:1-4). The mindset or spirit of domination and the worship of those in power survived the flood (Gen 10:9). Then another aspect of the heavenly Father's personality is added to the mix, the enjoyment that comes from creating and building, (Gen 11: 5-8). And, even though the Father put a spanner in the works at that time, it became an addiction that prevails ...Make ready you men the slaughtering block for his own sons because of the error of their forefathers, that they may not rise up and actually fill the face of the earth with cities... (Isa 14:21).

Image This is where we are today.

But part of growing up, the time allowed to do our own thing and develop the human character, means that we learn. We still are a bit like the seventeen-year-old who says to a friend, 'It is incredible how ignorant my father is, and who twenty years later says, 'It is incredible how much my father has learned in twenty years.' We are only just beginning to understand what it is all about. But time is running out as we rapidly approach the point of no return.



Now we are ready to understand what it's all about. And I saw another angel fly in mid-heaven, and he had good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, [to get the point what is meant by those who dwell on the earth, watch the opening scenes of the above video], and to every nation, and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice "FEAR God and give him glory, [aorist imperative, it is not a request but a command], for the hour of judgment by him has arrived. and so worship the One, [as at Gen 18:2;19:1], who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters", (Rev 14: 6,7).

The time for humanity to take up its responsibility has come.
LRW~

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#376 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Revelation
Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses part 4
Continued pt.3c

In my reply to Bobcat, post 375 above. I said
All good points and one can add many more possible scenarios
I didn’t add the one scenario that isn’t a possibility but is real. In the letter to the Philadelphians, the spirit says concerning those who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying. But 'that they are lying' is not a possibility but is a fact.

This is not a statement made by an unknown witness reporting what they said that they heard Jesus saying, but it is what the spirit said to the congregation in Philadelphia (Rev 3:7,13; cf. Rev 22:18,19). That the Bible contains lying statements must be taken into account. Yes, God made sure the scrolls that make up the Bible were compiled and preserved for our day, but it was in order that it would serve as the measuring rod/line for the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses, (cf. post 359, here & post 361, here & post 363, here

When did the lying or falsification start? As stated in post 363 (link above) during the time of Ezra.
An emendation is an "alteration intended to improve." The Sopherim, in a misguided zeal for God and the Scriptures, took it upon themselves to make some changes to the manuscripts which were handed down to them ...
The remainder of this article will be devoted to examining the 134 passages of Scripture where the Sopherim altered the Hebrew name for God (YHVH) to read Adonai (Ah-doh-nigh’)
The Emendations of the Sopherim, (underline mine).

Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians had said that this lawlessness was already at work in his day saying. The lawless one's presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents for those who are perishing as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God sends, [present tense], an operation of error to them because they do not receive, [aorist], a love of the truth in order to be saved, [aorist infinitive]. This lawlessness was already at work in the 1st century, (cf 2Thess 2:4,5; 1Cor 4:8]. And projecting it into the time when the two witnesses do their work he said: And then the lawless one will be revealed, [future], whom the Lord Jesus will do away with , [future], by the spirit of his mouth and will annul, [fut. as at 1Cor 2:6], at the manifestation of his presence/parousia.

In a nutshell. The lawlessness, the falsification/lying, was already present in Paul's time. He told the Thessalonians not to be quickly shaken from their reason by an inspired expression or through a verbal message as though from us to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here, (2Thess 2:2). At that time Paul was doing his utmost to hold this lawlessness in check. But he foresaw what would happen after he died, which it did, (cf.1Jhn 2:18,1). And he knew that this lawlessness would proliferate until the manifestation of Jesus's presence, when he would do away with the lawless one by the spirit of his mouth. At the time of the manifestation of his presence, someone like the son of man with a two edged sword that protrudes from his mouth, would cause the two witnesses to prophesy and nullify the words of the lawless one serving at the altar, (Rev 1:13,16; 2:12;11:2,3,4).

So that is why God sends an operation of error to them, that they may get to believing the lie, [cf 2Pe 3:15,16]. Yes, this lawless one, (2Thess 2:4) was already busy at that time. But at the time of the 8th beast, (Dan 7:7,8, 25; 8:24,25; Rev17:11), he will have his heyday and come to full bloom. At that time this beast that rises out of the abyss will kill the two witnesses. When this happens those serving at the altar will Jubilate.

Notice Paul says, that is why God sends an operation of error to them that they may get to believing the lie, singular. This great lie will embody all the falsefications from the time of the sopherim/scribes, the LXX, the Latin Vulgate including the false teaching of Jews in the congregation at Philadelphia, (Rev 3:9) and doctrines introduced later. And this pyramid of lies has yet to get its capstone, the lie which will be accepted by all those serving at the altar of the temple (Rev 11:8), but we will have to wait and see just what that will turn out to be. So no wonder that when the two witnesses are killed it will cause those serving at the altar to sing Jubilate Deo, (Rev 11: 9,10).

But one that loves truth will not be deceived, they acknowlege that some of the statements in the Bible are from witnesses that were lying, and that the falsification of God's word started when the Sopherim/scribes removed his name, Yehovah/YHWH, from the OT and replaced it with Lord.
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3820
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Revelation

#377 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

That the Bible contains lying statements must be taken into account. Yes, God made sure the scrolls that make up the Bible were compiled and preserved for our day, but it was in order that it would serve as the measuring rod/line for the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses

An example of a "lying statement" would be Gen 3:4. Yet 2Ti 3:16 NET says that "every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching." And Jesus could outright declare that "God's Word is truth." (Jn 17:17) So, for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts, and helps the jury to reach a conclusion.

Stuff that has been removed by some (e.g. the Name) can be (and has been) checked/reintroduced by means of comparisons with MSS.

So, I would be careful CI. You seem to be close to falling off a (faith) cliff (figuratively speaking). That's my opinion of course. (And 'your mileage may vary.')

It also seems a bit incongruous that you have a thread attempting to explain Revelation (an admittedly difficult task) while also expressing doubts about very basic things, like faith in God's Word. (Just an observation, but who am I?)


Bobcat

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#378 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
That the Bible contains lying statements must be taken into account. Yes, God made sure the scrolls that make up the Bible were compiled and preserved for our day, but it was in order that it would serve as the measuring rod/line for the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses
An example of a "lying statement" would be Gen 3:4. Yet 2Ti 3:16 NET says that "every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching." And Jesus could outright declare that "God's Word is truth." (Jn 17:17) So, for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts, and helps the jury to reach a conclusion.

Stuff that has been removed by some (e.g. the Name) can be (and has been) checked/reintroduced by means of comparisons with MSS.

So, I would be careful CI. You seem to be close to falling off a (faith) cliff (figuratively speaking). That's my opinion of course. (And 'your mileage may vary.')

It also seems a bit incongruous that you have a thread attempting to explain Revelation (an admittedly difficult task) while also expressing doubts about very basic things, like faith in God's Word. (Just an observation, but who am I?)


Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

Thank you for your reply and your concern.

When you say
for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts and helps the jury to reach a conclusion
I see no fault in your reasoning.

The way I see it our differences concern communication. Communication, the language we use to do that, and one's emotional response to what one hears or reads. If It agrees with what one thinks, one smiles and nods in agreement, but if it doesn't one tends to shut down and become defensive where no defense is required. Jesus understood this flaw in human nature and put it succinctly at Mt: 7:3-5; cf. Ec 7:9. We all do this, and it is something we all ought to learn to control. But above and beyond this, it is the spirit or intent that lodges in the heart that rules us, (Mt 12:34, 35, 36, 37, 38).

The fool has said in his heart there is no God they have acted ruinously, they have acted detestably in their ealings, Ps 14:1. And read: If ever that evil slave should say in his heart my master is delaying, (Mt 24:48... This slave still believes in God, but feels he needs to take matters into his own hands, (Mt 24:49). I think this is the same for all sons of God be they angelic or human.

From God's perspective the guiding principle is outlined at Ezk 33:7-16 ..."Now as regards to you, O son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Isreal and at my mouth, you must hear the word and give them warning from me." . This watchman is the someone like the son of man who sends letters to the seven congregations of invited ones, (Rev 1:13; 2:1)

He says to the Philadelphians, I know your deeds – look I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut – that you have a little power and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name,, (Rev 3:8). This little power that they have is what they have come to understand from the little scroll that contains the sacred secret ...according to the good news which declared to his own slaves the prophets...

At Heb 6:4 it says ...it is impossible for those who have been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift but who have fallen away to revive them to repentance... But who, if anyone, has been enlightened and tasted the free heavenly gift? The slaves' job was to watch for the master's return, nothing more, (Mt 24:40, 41, 42, 43, 44). But if, when the master doesn’t return as expected, that slave says in his heart, 'My master is delaying,' and takes matters into his own hands taking control and doing that which has been entrusted to the son of man. He is in effect usurping his role. Yes, this happened in first-century church and what has happened many times since.

So having a little power means only that those in the congregation at Philadelphia have insight into the good news which God declared o his own slaves and prophets, they have received promised spirit of truth, as described at Jhn 14:15,16,17,25,26. The 'all things' referred to Jhn 14:26 is limited to what is declared to the prophets, nothing more, (Rev 10:7), nothing more. They don't have complete insight into all things or tasted the heavenly free gift as a Heb 4:6, neither do the angels. If they had wouldn’t have left the heavenly position and cohabited with earthly women (Jude 6). We don’t have the book of Enoch Jude that goes into this in detail, but it was also was part part of the holy writing referred to 2 Tim 3:15,16. Humans and angels often misjudge and take matters into our own hands, but ultimately all will be judged and, even as Jude says concerning the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place that God has reserved them with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. That day is still the future, and each will be judged individually.

This little power, the little insight into the little scroll causes the ones in Philadelphia to prophecy in sackcloth, knowing the son of man is watching how they do this according to the principle outlined at Ezk 33:7-16, which applies for all that serving at the altar. It is only after the two witnesses are killed and stand on their feet and are called up to heaven that they taste heavenly free gift which is life everlasting. (Heb 4:6)

So, Yes, God sends an operation of error go to those who do not love the truth that they may get to believing the lie. He draws to the surface what is in the heart of his intelligent creation, as he has always done. The son of man has been appointed as the watchman for humankind. When he returns, (Mt 24:30), he uses the sharp long sword that protrudes from his mouth, which is the word of God, (Rev 19:15, 16; Jhn 12:47, 48, 49, 50), to slay those who side with the beast and the harlot. Until then the principle outlined at Ezk 33:7-16 continues to apply. And it is not until the thousand-year rule ends when books are opened and all including the devil, are judged according to their deeds. Those judged adversely at that time receive complete destruction in the lake of fire, (Rev 20: 7:10,11-15).

On another note, while checking 2Tim 3:14-16 in the interlinear I came across a detail that gives food for thought. I don’t know if it has been mentioned on the forum.

In Greek writing and scripture 2Tim3:5,16 come from [ from graphó, write, ergo writing]. Paul writes: all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, and for setting things straight. This Greek word rendered inspired, which literally means God-breathed, is of interest. It is thought that Paul coined this word as it appears in no other Greek writing. At Biblehub for 2315. theopneustos it says: Word-studies 2315 theópneustos (from 2316 /theós, "God" and 4154 /pnéō, "breathe out") – properly, God-breathed, referring to the divine inspiration (inbreathing) of Scripture (used only in 2 Tim 3:16). The word breath 4154 first occurs in the LXX at Gen 2:7 & Gen 7:22 where it refers to the breath or force of life in man and warmblooded animals.

It would be interesting to know what Paul had in mind when he coined this word. Paul knew much more than he revealed in his letters, things about which he was not permitted to speak (2 Cor 12: 1, 2, 3, 4). He also knew without a doubt that what they had then was partial knowledge which would be replaced with complete knowledge when it arrived, (1 Cor 13:9,10). So what did he mean when he in effect said all writing is the breath of God that he breathed into man and all warm-blooded creatures. No doubt some of us will find out in due time.
LRW~

Stranger
Posts: 2241
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Revelation

#379 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
Hello Bobcat,

Thank you for your reply and your concern.

When you say
for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts and helps the jury to reach a conclusion
I see no fault in your reasoning.

Hi Coccus,

I thought it to be superb as well, impressively splendid Bobcat!


Stranger, :thumbup:

User avatar
coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Revelation

#380 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
That the Bible contains lying statements must be taken into account. Yes, God made sure the scrolls that make up the Bible were compiled and preserved for our day, but it was in order that it would serve as the measuring rod/line for the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses
An example of a "lying statement" would be Gen 3:4. Yet 2Ti 3:16 NET says that "every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching." And Jesus could outright declare that "God's Word is truth." (Jn 17:17) So, for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts, and helps the jury to reach a conclusion.

Stuff that has been removed by some (e.g. the Name) can be (and has been) checked/reintroduced by means of comparisons with MSS.

So, I would be careful CI. You seem to be close to falling off a (faith) cliff (figuratively speaking). That's my opinion of course. (And 'your mileage may vary.')

It also seems a bit incongruous that you have a thread attempting to explain Revelation (an admittedly difficult task) while also expressing doubts about very basic things, like faith in God's Word. (Just an observation, but who am I?)


Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

Thank you for your reply and your concern.

When you say
for instance, even in a court, reporting and recording a lie is useful when compiling all the facts. The lie itself becomes one of the facts and helps the jury to reach a conclusion
Your reasoning is spot on.

The way I see it, our differences concern communication. The language we use to do that, and one's emotional response to what one hears or reads. If It agrees with what one thinks, one smiles and nods in agreement, but if it doesn't one tends to shut down and become defensive where no defense is required. Jesus understood this weakness in human nature and put it succinctly at Mt 7:3-5; cf. Ec 7:9. We are all prone to this, and it is something we all ought to learn to control. But above and beyond this, it is the spirit or intent that lodges in the heart that rules us, (Mt 12:34, 35, 36, 37, 38).

The fool has said in his heart there is no God. They have acted ruinously, they have acted detestably in their dealings, Ps 14:1. And now read, If ever that evil slave should say in his heart my master is delaying, (Mt 24:48). This slave still believes in God but feels the need to take matters into his own hands, (Mt 24:49). I think this is something that is a common weakness for all sons of God be they angelic or human.

From God's perspective the guiding principle is outlined at Ezk 33:7-16 ..."Now as regards to you, O son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel and at my mouth, you must hear the word and give them warning from me." This watchman is the 'someone like the son of man' who sent letters to the seven congregations of invited ones, (Rev 1:13; 2:1)

He says to the Philadelphians, I know your deeds – look I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut – that you have a little power and you keep my word and do not prove false to my name, (Rev 3:8). This little power that they have stems from what they have come to understand from the little scroll that contains the sacred secret ...according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets, (Rev 10:7).

At Heb 6:4 it says ...it is impossible for those who have been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift but who have fallen away, to revive them to repentance, (cf. Heb 5:14 and compare 1Cor 13:10). But who amongst humans is mature, complete, perfect, and has tasted the free heavenly gift, (Rev 22:17)?

The slaves' job was to watch for the master's return, nothing more, (Mt 24:40, 41, 42, 43, 44). But if, when the master doesn’t return as expected, that slave says in his heart, 'My master is delaying,' and takes matters into his own hands, taking control and doing that which has been entrusted to the son of man. He is in effect usurping his role. This happened in the first-century church , and is what has happened many times since.

So having a little power means only that those in the congregation at Philadelphia have insight into the good news which God declared to his own slaves and the prophets, they have received the spirit of truth that Jesus promised and it enables them to understand, (Jhn 14:15,16,17,25,26. The 'all things' referred to at Jhn 14:26, is limited to what is declared to the prophets, nothing more, (Rev 10:7). They don't have complete insight into all things beyond that, nor have they tasted the heavenly free gift, (Heb 4:6). And neither, for that matter, have the angels. If they had known all things they would not have left their heavenly dwelling plave to cohabit with earthly women, (Jude 6). We don’t have the book of Enoch to which Jude refers. This book goes into greater detail concerning this. In the first century, it was one of the holy writings Paul refers to in his letter to 2 Tim 3:15,16.

Humans and angels have often misread the situation and taken matters into their own hands, but ultimately all will be judged, even as Jude says concerning these wayward angels whom God reserves with eternal bonds under dense darkness for judgment of the great day. That day is still future, and angels and humans, will be judged at that time.

This little power, the glimpse into the little scroll containing the sacred secret causes the ones in Philadelphia to prophesy in sackcloth, knowing the son of man is watching how they do this (Ezk. 33:7-16) which applies for all that are serving at the altar. It is only after the two witnesses are killed and stand on their feet and are called up to heaven that they taste the heavenly free gift, (Heb 4:6) and are granted life everlasting as opposed to those who go into everlasting cutting-off, (Rev 20:10b). As he has done in the past, God sends an operation of error to those who do not love the truth that they may get to believing the lie. He brings to the surface what is buried in the heart of his intelligent creation.

The son of man has been appointed as the watchman for humankind. When he returns, (Mt 24:30), he uses the sharp long sword that protrudes from his mouth, which is the word of God, (Rev 19:15, 16; Jhn 12:47, 48, 49, 50), to slay those who side with the beast and the harlot. Until then the principle outlined at Ezk 33:7-16 continues to be in effect. And it is not until the thousand-year rule ends that books are opened and all including the devil, are judged according to their deeds. Those judged adversely at that time receive complete destruction in the lake of fire, where both the beast and false prophet already were, (Rev 20:7;10,11-15).

On another note, while checking 2Tim 3:14-16 in the interlinear I came across a detail that gives food for thought. I don’t know if it has been mentioned on the forum.

The Greek words for writings and scripture as at 2Tim3:5,16 come [ from graphó, write, ergo writing]. Paul writes: all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, and for setting things straight. This Greek word rendered inspired, which literally means God-breathed, is of interest. It is thought that Paul coined this word as it appears in no other Greek writing. At Biblehub for 2315. theopneustos it says: Word-studies 2315 theópneustos (from 2316 /theós, "God" and 4154 /pnéō, "breathe out") – properly, God-breathed, referring to the divine inspiration (inbreathing) of Scripture (used only in 2 Tim 3:16). The word ‘breathe/breath’ 4154 first occurs in the LXX at Gen 2:7 & Gen 7:22 where it refers to the breath or force of life in man and warm-blooded animals.

It would be interesting to know what Paul had in mind when he coined this word. Paul knew much more than he revealed in his letters, things about which he was not permitted to speak (2 Cor 12: 1, 2, 3, 4). He also knew without a doubt that what they had then was partial knowledge which would be replaced with complete, perfect knowledge when it arrived, (1 Cor 13:9,10). So what did he mean when he in effect said all writing is the breath of God that he breathed into man and all warm-blooded creatures. No doubt some of us will find out in due time.
LRW~

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests