Revelation

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Orchid61
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Re: Revelation

#351 Post by Orchid61 » 3 months ago

I believe that many take the emblems (communion) in a ritualistic fashion, some even prideful.

@ Amos
Hello I think, you are confusing the feelings of joy with the word prideful.

We can learn a lot from each other, but we stand also alone, each of us, before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.
We cannot read hearts and what is motivating someone to take the emblems.

Love Maria🌷

Bobcat
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Re: Revelation

#352 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

Hi Maria,

Just speaking from a JW perspective, I could see where there is a mix of pride, joy, suspicion, and fear involved in partaking of the Lord's Supper emblems.

What I mean by that, and I am only speaking from my experience and observation within the WT organization, I see what appears to be some form of pride on the part of the WT leadership regarding their assumed position as the only real 'sons of God.' They expect everyone else within the Org to accept their claims. This appears to be mixed with some arrogance also. And, of course, this is only my opinion based on observation. I make no claims to being able to read hearts.

I also see the concerted effort on the part of the WT to arouse suspicion in anyone else who partakes. It might not be overt suspicion. But the official WT position on anyone else who partakes is to leave that between that one and God. But they will also throw in the thought that some partake because of past religious views or because of being mentally unstable in some way. But, they will never admit that those things are also possible in the case of the GB. On the other hand, they will never admit that some who partake do so because they have come to believe that is what Jesus commanded at the Last Supper. (See this post for 'argument framing' in connection with WT's partaking viewpoint.)

And, of course, there is joy when one has arrived at the view that Jesus intended partaking for all who would benefit as part of the New Covenant. Yet, mixed in is some fear that doing something so simple puts one at odds with the WT and virtually everyone associated with it, including family and longtime friends who become suspicious due to oppressive WT propaganda.

It is a sorry state of affairs when you think of the many years of slaving for the WT, thinking they were synonymous with "the truth." In many ways it is similar to being a disciple of Jesus during the time of his ministry and for some years after where the Jewish system was viewed as "the truth," and Jewish religious leadership had the final say as to what was orthodox and what was not.

Maybe that is the genius (read 'divine inspiration') behind the gospel accounts. They present life as it really is in every time period for the few who try to practice Christianity as they truly understand it.


Bobcat

Orchid61
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Re: Revelation

#353 Post by Orchid61 » 3 months ago

And, of course, there is joy when one has arrived at the view that Jesus intended partaking for all who would benefit as part of the New Covenant.
Yes Bobcat it is a joy most certainly.

Agape Maria 🌷

AmosAU
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Re: Revelation

#354 Post by AmosAU » 3 months ago

Hi Bobcat and Maria,

Thanks Bobcat responding to Maria as you have explained very similar to how I would respond.

Maria, perhaps I used the word that gave a wrong impression of what I meant. Instead of using the word, "prideful" I should have used words such as, aloof, superior, elitist, etc. I can say this because I have eye witnessed this myself since the 1960's. by some who have claimed to be anointed. I'm not suggesting they were or were not of the anointed according to the WTS version of anointed. Some have displayed a very superior view of themselves, and looked down on the average JW.

I do most certainly agree with you that it's something to be very joyful about being chosen and elected by our Creator, for a very specific purpose. That purpose I believe is to be used in a priesthood to minister to those who are sighing and groaning.

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (ESV)

It is indeed a joyful to be used like this.

Regards, Amos.

Stranger
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Re: Revelation

#355 Post by Stranger » 3 months ago

Stranger wrote,
Thank you for posting the Russian movie, it was very interesting. I never thought I would watch a Russian movie but I did and I'm glad I did.

Hi Coccus,

That Russian Movie called "The Fool" you posted eight months ago was fulfilled in Surfside Florida, the only difference is that the Russians were trying to do something about it as the Americans were not, what a shame! Thanks again for posting it.



Stranger

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#356 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Hello Amos, Maria, Bobcat and Stranger

For me, the awakening came differently, it was an opening of eyes that the WT society had fudged the translation of aorist, 'come,' at Mt 24:45-47 NWT. At that time what I understood from the NW Greek interlinear was completely rudimentary and my knowledge of grammar and grammatical terms was zilch. Zilch is zero or nearly zero. This is a slangy term for nothing at all. It was as if a rug had been pulled out from under my feet. And so I pleaded with Jehovah to help me make it fit the WT claim that they had been appointed. Where I was at that time there was no one that was sufficiently grounded in scripture that I could discuss it with without undermining their faith, so I wrote to the Governing body. They ignored that and subsequent letters. So I did the only thing left to me, I did a round trip, literally circumnavigating the globe, to my home congregation to talk to a couple of elders who had a good grounding in scriptures. I showed them a copy of the letter, which was worded as a request asking for help to make sense of what I had found. One elder thrust it back at me as if it was something unclean. And the other elder, who was no longer an elder said his grandmother, who had been an emblem partaker had also said something along similar lines, i.e. that the FDS is not appointed until Jesus comes.

I returned to where I had been serving and stopped attending meetings but continued to study the Bible. I never partook of the emblems at the memorial and only did so for one or two years on my own after I had come home. But once I understood that Luke's account had been written years later, I accepted Matthew, Mark and John's account as more accurate and I stopped celebrating the Passover altogether. And it was not until more than a decade later, after a disturbing dream, that I understood what I had to do.

Yes, I can see how there would be a joy for one that starts taking emblems in a congregation. But the joy is a consequence of how emblem partakers have been portrayed by the WT organization. But whenever we pipsqueak humans become overly jubilant it induces a euphoria, the feeling that one is special. That, coupled with the society's innuendos about new emblem partakers in turn makes one turn against the WT organization, and the incontrovertible measure for measure principle takes control, (Mt 7:1-5). Satan certainly knows how to push our buttons.

That's a nice verse in post 354 Rev 5:9 above that you quoted, Amos. But just to hammer the point home that it's not a done deal, here it is again from the interlinear ...And they are singing, [present], a new song saying, [present participle], you are worthy to take the scroll and to open, [aorist infinitive], the seals of it because you were slaughtered, [aorist passive], and you buy, [aorist], persons for God by the blood of you out of every tribe and tongue and peoples and nation. Since the events in Revelation are currently unfolding, the process of buying persons for God is in progress now. Once the silliness of unalloyed joy dies down one must then ask, why. Why have I been woken up, because along with 'the waking' up comes responsibility, (Dan 12:2,3,4,10; Mt 25:1,6,7,8).

The Son of man who stands in the midst of the seven lampstands (Rev 1:12,13) says: ... I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth, these are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands, that are standing before the Lord of the earth... (Rev 11:3,4)

The place where they do their witnessing is amongst those serving at the altar of the sanctuary, those ones who believe they have been anointed to serve, ones like themselves, (Rev 11:1; Dan 12:10). They are dressed in sackcloth symbolic of their repentance, (Rev 11:3).

The entire city of Nimrod’s Nineveh, (Gen 10:11), repented and began to ...put faith in God and proceeded to proclaim a fast and to put on sackcloth from the greatest one even to the least one of them... And God got to see their words and that they had turned back from their way, so God felt regret over the calamity he had spoken of causing to them. To Jonah though, it was highly displeasing and he got hot with anger... And he said to God that that was why he had headed in the opposite direction, to Tarshish, because he knew that God wouldn't end up destroying the Ninevites, (Jon 1:3; 3:5,6,8, 9,10; 4:1-3). And Jehovah asked him if he had rightly become hot with anger (Jon 4:4). Then Jonah went out of the city and proceeded to build himself a booth to shade him. And Jehovah prepared a qiqayon plant to come up over Jonah to shade him. Compare, Jdg 9:8,9,10,12, 13,14. All the other trees had refused to be anointed as king over them. Then the bramble said to the trees: if it is in truth you are anointing me as king over you, come, seek refuge in my shadow... but if not let fire come out of the bramble and consume the cedars of Lebanon, [From lbab; the) white mountains, from lebab, heart] (Jdg 9:15)...

Besides referring to the prickly plant, the bramble, 329 atad, also means Biblehub 329 atad, left-hand column, noun masculine, mutterer, plural אִטִּים Isaiah 19:3 mutterers ("" אֹבוֺת, יִדְּעֹנִים) i.e. either ventriloquists or whisperers of charms, Compare Isaiah 8:19; Isaiah 29:4 . This then was the tree, or 7021 qiqayon plant , which comes from 7006 ayah, and means, 'to vomit up, spew out that Jehovah had made grow up over Jonah to shade him. As one can see yet again it concerns the stumbling block that Immanuel becomes to both houses of Israel, (Isa 8:14).

At Isa 19:3 it says: And the spirits of Egypt must become bewildered in the midst of it, and I shall confuse its own counsel. And they will be certain to resort to valueless gods, and the charmers, [ masc. noun plural of adverb 328 atad], and the spirit mediums and professional foretellers of events. Connect Isa 8:6 ...For the reason this people has rejected the waters of Shiloah, [the sender, i.e. the sayings of Jesus], that are going gently [adv. atad 328], and Isa 8:19 ...And in case they should say to you apply to the spritistic mediums or to those who are chirping and making utterances in low tones, It is not to its God you people should apply... with Isa 19:3 And the spirits of Egypt must become bewildered in the midst of it, and I shall confuse its own counsel. And they will be certain to resort to valueless gods, and the charmers, [pl. noun 329 brambles].

Isa 8:20 closes the cunumdrum repeating the words of Isa 8:16, To the law and the attestation and Jhn 6:27 in reference to the stone to strike against and a rock over which to stumble (for details see post 319, here).

The two witnesses, like those of Nineveh, have put on sackcloth, repenting of their former ways, beliefs and attitudes - cleansing and whitening themselves. They do their work among those serving at the altar of the sanctuary, the booth built by Jonah that is shaded by the qiqayon plant, which is nothing more than a mere growth of the night. (Jon 4:6,9,10); Dan 12:10; Jhn 14:3,4,16,17,25,26).

So for those who have heard the wake up call, what the spirit says to the congregation, it is now the time to tampt down any euphoria that makes them feel special, and consider what this requires of them. Finally, about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing about and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing about here all day unemployed?" And they said to him 'Because nobody has hired us.' He said to them, 'You too go into the vineyard.', (Mt 20:6,7)...But many that are first will be last...(Mt 19:30) ...In this way the last ones will be first, and the first ones last... (Mt 20:16)
...But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come to recline with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where the gnashing of their teeth will be... (Mt 8:11,12) ...For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over western parts, so the presence of the son of man will be... And then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory... (Mt 24:27,30).
LRW~

AmosAU
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Re: Revelation

#357 Post by AmosAU » 3 months ago

Hi CI,

Thank you for a very well thought out and presented reply/post.

I really do agree with your thoughts in your post. I also have come to the belief that while the call is still happening, none of us have received the final reward of eternal life, as the following shows;

Dan. 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1Cor. 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1Thes. 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The above quotes give the distinct message that the dead are not raised until the return of the Lord. This is why I believe that we must remain faithful until death, to receive the promised inheritance.

Regards, Amos.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#358 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Stranger wrote:
3 months ago
Stranger wrote,
Thank you for posting the Russian movie, it was very interesting. I never thought I would watch a Russian movie but I did and I'm glad I did.
Hi Coccus,
That Russian Movie called "The Fool" you posted eight months ago was fulfilled in Surfside Florida, the only difference is that the Russians were trying to do something about it as the Americans were not, what a shame! Thanks again for posting it.

Stranger
Thank you Stranger for that information. I have just come across this article by Scott Ritter that might interest you. I Saw up Close how Rumsfeld Deliberately Caused the Deaths of US Troops for Personal Gain, which demonstrates yet again how difficult it is for those who want to toe the moral line in a country that has lost its moral compass.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#359 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

AmosAU wrote:
3 months ago
Hi CI,


2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
...The above quotes give the distinct message that the dead are not raised until the return of the Lord. This is why I believe that we must remain faithful until death, to receive the promised inheritance.
Regards, Amos.
Hello Amos,

Thank you for your reply. These verses you quote need to be looked at a little closer to understand what they mean. We have to take to heart that the textbook, that tattered book, which has been our mainstay, has been changed to conform to a belief. Jesus knew this would happen and has made the means for the virgins to put their lamps in order available, (Mt 25:7).

For the foolish taking, [aorist participle], their lamps take no oil with them , [aorist]. But the wise take oil in their lamp receptacles, [aorist]. .
While the bridegroom is delaying
, [present, cf. Mt 24:48], they all get drowsy and fall asleep, [vb.imperfect]. Then in the middle of the night there was a cry announcing the bridegroom's arrival and the command to go forth to meet him, (Mt 25:2-5). All the virgins rise and put their lamps in order. The lamps of those who continue to rely on the old oil are about to go out, (Mt 25:8). It doesn't mean that one throws out the receptacle (the bible), but it does mean that one must replace the old oil with the new to light the way.

So let's check out Dan 12:2,3 in the Biblehub Interlinear
...And during that time, [Dan 11:40; 12:4, the time of the end], Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people... And there will certainly occur a time of distress, such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation, until that time, [cf. Mt 24:21,22], And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found, [Niphal passive participle], written, [Qal passive participle], in the book...

Don't worry about the parsing for verbs, the jury is still out concerning the application of grammar rules for Heb. verbs. The only thing that they all agree on is that biblical Hebrew verbs are either finished or unfinished actions.

Continuing ...And many from sleeping adamah in the dust shall awaken,(adamah, (127) not earth, see adamah - the same as adam, with a feminine ending, i.e. when God created adam/man in his image, male and female he created them, Gen 1:27).
These to life everlasting and those to shame and contempt everlasting... ( Dan 12:2). The preposition before מִ sleeping is from. This waking up of the adamah i.e. the seed of the woman from the dust is now in progress, (Gen 3:15; Isa 54:1,3).

...While the bridegroom is delaying, [Mt 25:5; cf Mt 24:48], they all went to sleep. We cannot continue to rely on old oil to light the way.

The two witnesses are the two olive trees and two lamp stands that are standing before the Lord of the earth... (Rev 11:4).

The words of Jehovah continued to occur to Zechariah...(Zec 4:8-10) The very hands, [3027], of Zerubbabel [2216]...
Imagehave laid the foundation of this house and his own hands will finish it. For who has despised the day of small things? They will certainly see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel, [seed of Babylon, cf Rev 11:1; Mt 12:40, 41, 42; Jon 3:5-9]. The seven are the eyes of Jehovah that are roving about in all the earth, [cf. Rev 1:20]. And Zechariah asked what the two olive trees on either side of the lampstand and the two golden tubes that are draining ,[active participle], golden liquid into the hands from the (7641) two ears of grain, [cf. Mt 13:25,29,43 Zec 4:11,12]. And he is told ...These are the two anointed ones that stand alongside the Lord of the whole earth, (Zec 4:11-14) Note, that the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses, are actively dispensing in a continuous flow fresh golden oil via their golden straw stems/tubes. So it is up to us to avail ourselves of this continuous flow of fresh oil, without it our lamps will go out.

This is a lot to take in for those not used to checking the interlinear but it gets easier with practice, and the closer one looks the more one can see that the bible was changed to conform to the prevailing belief when all the virgins went to sleep. The two ears of grain are the two witnesses, the despised small things. These two ears of grain are omitted when the harvesters tie the weeds into bundles in the near offing. At which time they will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their father (Mt 13:43)
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#360 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Revelation

Prelude to the Thousand Year Reign

The Two Witnesses

Besides the two witnesses measuring those that serve at the altar by shining a light on scripture with the fresh oil from their reserves (Mt 25:3,4), there is also another way with which prospective brothers of the son of man earn his approval, (Mt 25:14-30; 40,45). After the illustration of the ten virgins, Jesus reiterated the admonition “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.

He then gave another illustration of a man who was about to travel abroad, committing his belongings to his slaves, (Mt 25:14-30). On the surface, this appears to be all about money and making a profit. But if one remembers his illustration concerning kingdom treasures at Mt 13:44-50, see post 343, here, one realizes that he is not talking about monetary profit nor purely knowledge required by those who would be public instructors/teachers, (Mt 13:51,52). And one understands that these belongings include another skill that is even more difficult to master for potential sons of God, (Mt 5:45,46), because it concerns the changing of one’s values and one’s habitual nature.

Yes, Jesus advises us to be humble like a young child (Mt 18:1-6). But if our motivation for doing so is wrong, i.e. exaltation, "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted...(Mt 23:12), then it is more beneficial to have a millstone hung about one's neck and be sunk in the wide-open sea, (Mt 18:6).

Jesus committed his kingdom belongings/treasures to his slaves, (Mt 5:3 to Mt 7:28; 28:20), ...to one he gave five talents, to another two, to still another, one, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad... (Mt 25:14, 15). Note, he assigned a portion of his belongings to each, according to their ability.

A young Nigerian friend once told me that these talents were gifts or individual talents. I, a native English speaker, and with what I then considered to be my superior JW knowledge of the Bible, quickly disabused him of the notion, saying that the talents referred to money. But his notion was spot on. Jesus not only gives us knowledge but also teaches us what God requires of his sons about how we view ourselves and others, i.e. our values. That is an even more difficult thing that potential sons of God must master, (Rev 14: 1-3). We were made in God’s image, see post 347, here, but this mastering of ourselves is one of the most difficult tasks Jesus has set us. And that is why he gave different amounts to each of his slaves according to their ability to handle and increase.

Below are three videos that highlight some problematic areas of our personalities. Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist. As you listen see if anything rings a bell. In one of them, he speaks about our dark side, the area of our personality we keep hidden even from ourselves, and we all have them. This is the rafter in our eye that stops us from seeing clearly (Mt 7:4,5). We tend to concentrate on our strengths and ignore our weaknesses, and yet it is precisely our weaknesses that we need to work on and improve.

Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation ... just because of excess of revelation. Therefore, that I might not be overly exalted, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, and an angel of Satan to keep slapping me... And he pleaded with God that this thorn be removed and God told him “my undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for my power is being made perfect in weakness. And Paul said: Most gladly then I will rather boast as respects to my weaknesses ... For when I am weak, I am strong, (2Cor 12:6-10).

The thorn in his flesh was the dark area of his personality that he avoided. But when he was told that this was needed to keep him from becoming overly exalted, he welcomed it because it kept him humble. So it is with each potential son of God. Each is given the precise amount of the master's belongings, which they are capable of handling. However, they are not to sit on their laurels but are expected to improve on what they have been given. Because our attitudes and actions, good or bad, have a reciprocal effect on others ... with the measure you are measuring out they will measure out to you... (Mt 7:2; 5:37-45). We must master how to use those riches in order to increase the value of the master's belongings.
.
Choose Your Friends Carefully
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj3OvvRVmzk


The Greatest Advice You Will Ever Receive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpCBIF1Yl4k


The Truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R-FUA0ZBJc
LRW~

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