Revelation

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Bobcat
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Re: Revelation

#341 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

CI, it seems to me that you convolute, or over complicate, your arguments. I was simply expressing a viewpoint. I don't want any visitors to this site to think that your views about Jesus not yet being the Christ are the standard view of people on this site. Visitors might think that this site falls under the description of 1Jn 2:22. You do have a right to your view. So I don't deny you that.

But, regarding your reply, it goes on about the Pope and where the original sin doctrine originated from and translation issues, and (what you imagine) the motives of other writers are, and whether "both houses of Israel" refers to Jews or not . . . (None of which are issues to me, by the way.)

You are similar to someone else on this site who has (IMO) a different but equally convoluted explanation for the Bible that no one else on earth has. And yet, somehow, you (like them), have convinced yourself that only your view/interpretation is correct. And that everyone else for centuries has been fooled. You should really weigh out James 3:1 and the possible ramifications for yourself. That's my opinion, anyways, for what it's worth (if anything).

I probably shouldn't have bothered to comment. But your posts (and the other one I mention) worry me about the reputation this forum might get if your posts were left not commented on. Most times I just leave your posts for others to consider. But every once in a while I feel impelled to make a brief reply out of fear for this site and how others might perceive it. To be honest, that's how dangerous and/or distorted I've come to see some of the things (not necessarily everything) you (and the other person) are teaching.


Bobcat

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#342 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
4 months ago
Visitors might think that this site falls under the description of 1Jn 2:22.
I agree.

This site in many ways has come to resemble the Congregation of Thyatira. Thyatira had a very specific problem, they were inclined to tolerate that which should not be tolerated. This was spirituality damaging towards many who were in association with that particular Congregation.

To those in Thyatira it was written: -

Revelation 2:20-23 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

If someone leads you astray into following a different Jesus, a counterfeit one, then this is tantamount to committing a spiritual sexual immorality or a partaking of food which has been offered before an idol.

2 Corinthians 11:2,3...I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ

The good thing is that in Thyatira there are at least some who have not subscribed to Jezebel's wicked teachings, they have kept themselves from being defiled by her.

Revelation 2:24, 25 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

These ones are to be applauded as they continue to hold fast to truth, dispite Jezebel's wicked influence.

Of course, patience, kindness and mercy is to be extended towards ALL disciples as we learn, readjust and progress towards salvation. Something's are not worth making issues over and our patience, kindness and mercy can cover over these things. We all progress towards an accurate knowledge at varying rates. Being kind and merciful towards one another as we learn and readjust is a Christian obligation.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Galatians 6:22 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

However, caution must be excerised that our patience, kindness and mercy does not become a tolerance of what is wicked.

Those who hope to survive Thyatira need to learn that there is a massive difference between putting up with the weaknesses of our brothers and sisters and tolerating outright wickedness.

There are a great many interesting thoughts from ones who post on this forum. A genuine desire to know and learn truth can be seen in many. In contrast, there are also those who seek to enslave and lead ones away from Christ, Jezebel like ones. By their fruits you can recognise them.

Matthew 7:15-20 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Teaching that Jesus was NOT the Christ when in the flesh is something that I would expect to be hearing from the mouth of Jezebel or an antichrist.
Similarly, teaching that Jesus blood sacrifice is NOT vital for our salvation is another utterance that I would expect to hear from the mouth of Jezebel or an antichrist.

These things cross a line and should not be tolerated.

Kind Regards

Kerry

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#343 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Hello Bobcat and Kerry

Thank you Bobcat for your frank reply, now I understand where you are coming from.

Kerry, I get that you do not agree with me. What each person believes is a very personal thing. I gather from your quote of the letter addressed to the congregation in Thyatira with Jezebel who misleads Jesus’s slaves into committing sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols, (Rev 2:18,20), that you place me into that category. And place yourself in the category of the church father who penned the letters of John 1, 2, 3, reprimanding me for saying that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Christ and forbade his disciples from doing so. But what I don't understand is in what way, according to your analysis, do I mislead the slaves of Jesus to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols? Unless you consider my encouraging others to do their utmost to obey the teaching of Jesus as at Mt 5: 27-30 & Mt 19:3-12, is the same as telling them to commit fornication. And by advocating the hearing and heeding the words of Jesus as the primary obligation of Jesus’s slaves, that this is tantamount to telling the reader to eat foods sacrificed to idols. If that is what you meant then it might be advisable for you to do a bit of self-analysis and think clearly about the alternative you propose.

What each one believes is a personal thing that each must examine for themselves. And it is important that we do this from time to time as what comes out of the mouth comes from our heart. Jesus, addressing the Pharisees the teachers of the law, had said: “Either you people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or you make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known. So this is our responsibility...For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good treasures, [2344. thésauros RH column ], sends out good things, whereas the wicked man, out of his wicked treasures sends out wicked things. I tell you that for every unprofitable saying men speak they will render an account at judgment day; for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words, you will be condemned, (Mt 12:33-37).

Jesus had earlier explained to his disciples what he meant by treasures of the heart. They had come to him asking him to explain the illustration of the weeds, which he did, (Mt 13: 36-43). He then added three further illustrations dealing with the conclusion of the system of things telling them that the kingdom of the heavens is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man finds and hides; and for joy, he goes and sells what things he has in order to buy that field. Then he likens the kingdom of the heavens to a travelling merchant seeking fine pearls and finding one pearl of high value, he promptly sells all the things he has to buy it. And then said: the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. When it got full they hauled it onto the beach and, sitting down they collected the fine ones into vessels but the unsuitable they threw away. That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things: the angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be...(Mt 13:44-50).

Jesus then asked them if they understood this. They answered that they had, he added: “That being the case, every public instructor, when taught respecting the kingdom of the heavens is like a man, a householder who throws out,[1544. ekballo, as at Mt 8:12], of his treasures things old and new.. (Mt 13:51,52). The treasures are the teachings one believes in and abides by. In the first century it was the conclusion of the Jewish system of things, today it is the conclusion of the entire worldly system of things. Paul put it this way, when that which is complete arrives that which is partial will be done away with, (1Cor 13:9,10).

The writer of the letters of John considers himself to be a teacher. He has thrown out the old treasures of the heart and replaced them with the new teaching that prevailed at that time. He writes, Young children it is the last hour, and just as you have heard the antichrist is coming, even now there are many antichrists from this we have the knowledge that it is the last hour... Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist the one that denies the Father and the Son... (1Jhn 2:18-22). Much of what he says, apart from this condemnatory diatribe, is spot on. But he was wrong about it being the last hour. And he was wrong in taking it upon himself to do the work of the son of man directing the angels to collect out of his kingdom all the things that cause stumbling and persons doing lawlessness, (Mt 13:41).

In this he was the forerunner of many others, including JW’s who followed his example. Jesus had said concerning the slave he put on watch, But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying, and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should start to eat and drink with confirmed drunkards the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and an hour he does not know... (Mt 24: 48,49). What can the slave do, when he realizes it is not the last hour? The loving thing to do, following the principles at Mt 6:14,15; Mt 18:23-35, would be to admit to fellow slaves that they had been wrong and ask for their forgiveness. It appears that that did not happen in the first century. But there is still time for all those who have overstepped the mark in a similar way today to repent and bear witness to Jesus (Rev 12:17)

Jesus had said, A disciple is not above his teacher, nor, the slave above his Lord. It is enough for the disciple to become as a teacher, and the slave as his Lord. If people called the householder Beelzebub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so? ... “Everyone that, [acknowledges], me before men I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens; but everyone that should deny me, [ denies, same word as at 1Jhn 2:22], before men I will also deny him before my Father... Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came not to put peace but a sword, (Mt 10:24, 25, 35, 32, 33, 34). From this it appears that now is the last hour, time will tell. But it behoves each of us to examine what we believe and why we believe as we do, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Bobcat, when I read through Constable’s quotes that you had tabled. including the quote from Kingsbury in support of the original sin doctrine. e.g.
“Why this prohibition? Because although the disciples correctly understand who Jesus is, they do not as yet know that central to Jesus’ divine sonship is death on the cross . In other words that that if the most important thing he did ...Hence, they are in no position at this point to go and make disciples of all nations.” (Kingsbury, Matthew as . . ., p. 75.)
That statement made me curious. Since Jesus had not even hinted at anything that could be misconstrued as original sin, I wanted to know what reasoning had led them to formulate such a doctrine. I typed the following in my browser: Origins of the doctrine of original sin, and this link came up, Are Men Born Sinners. It included this comment by Augustine (5th century CE)
Augustine built his doctrine of original sin upon this premise that sexual lust in procreation transmits sin. Harnack says: The most remarkable feature in the sexual sphere was, in his view, the involuntariness of the impulse
When I read that a number of things fell into place, i.e. the reason why celibacy is a requirement for priests in the Catholic church, and why flagellation was practiced.
https://www.newsweek.com/surprisingly-c ... ood-574670
Celibate Christians, both monks and clergy, have a long history with scandal. One of the surprising and distinctive features of early Christianity is the praise of celibacy—the practice of abstaining from all sexual relations—as an exemplary way to demonstrate one's faith... Given Christianity's origins within first-century Palestinian Judaism, it was hardly a given that the new religion would develop a high regard for celibacy ...Judaism valued family life, and many ritual observances were centred on the family ...As a scholar of early Christianity, I think it's important to highlight the fact that Catholic priestly celibacy has never been practised uniformly and is, in fact, a late development in church practise...
https://www.britannica.com/topic/flagellation Flagellation, in religion, the disciplinary or devotional practice of beating with whips. Although it has been understood in many ways—as driving out of evil spirits, as purification... In the early Christian church, self-flagellation was apparently imposed as punishment and as a means of penance for disobedient clergy and laity...

Concubinage, the taking of secondary wives had been practiced from early times. (Gen4:19; 22:19,24). Jehovah, by means of Moses, had given them regulations to control their sexual habits (Lev 15:16,17,18,19-24), and regulations governing secondary wives or concubines, (Ex 21:7-11). Then Jesus came along and told them what God required of children of God, (Mt 5:27-30; 19:3-9). His disciples thought this too harsh, saying, “If such is the situation of a man and his wife, it is not advisable for them to marry at all, (Mt 19:10). So one see, how this 'hard done by' mindset not only led to the formulation of the original sin doctrine, but why they would have welcomed it.

So thank you Bobcat for tabling Constable’s Commentary and making me look at the issue in greater depth. And thank you for keeping the wheels turning on this forum, I imagine it can’t be easy to take a non-committal stand. I realize my post can get convoluted, but then the prophecy concerning Immanuel at Isaiah chapter eight is something that was to remain hidden and remains a stumbling block, and rock to strike against for both houses of Israel to this very day. I did my level best to make it easier for the reader to understand that, which Constable calls the sacred Messianic secret. But as with anything new it takes time to chew and digest. But it is worth the effort, because once one begins to get a handle on it, it sheds a bright light on other enigmatic sayings that are waiting for a satisfactory explanation, i.e Wherever the carcass/corpse is, there the eagles/vultures will be gathered together, (Mt 24:28).
LRW~

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#344 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 months ago


Kerry, I get that you do not agree with me. What each person believes is a very personal thing. I gather from your quote of the letter addressed to the congregation in Thyatira with Jezebel who misleads Jesus’s slaves into committing sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols, (Rev 2:18,20), that you place me into that category. And place yourself in the category of the church father who penned the letters of John 1, 2, 3, reprimanding me for saying that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Christ and forbade his disciples from doing so. But what I don't understand is in what way, according to your analysis, do I mislead the slaves of Jesus to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols?
If someone leads you astray into following a different Jesus, a counterfeit one, then this is tantamount to committing a spiritual sexual immorality, by consuming or partaking of their false teachings, this is tantamount to partaking of food which has been offered before an idol.

Revelation has been presented for us in signs.

Revelation 3:22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

You are misleading people into believing that Jesus was not the Christ in the flesh and that his blood sacrifice is not vital in relation to our salvation.

Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Unfortunately, according to the message given to Thyatira, there was no healing for Jezebel, she was given time to repent, but she was dead set in her wickedness.

Revelation 2:21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

As we peer into God's Word, thoughts and attitudes are revealed.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The roles we discern ourselves playing – after looking into the mirror of God’s Word – can sometimes be good and encouraging, other times they may reveal a need to make adjustment.
Change is only possible if we remain clay like or mailable and God's mercy prevails.
However, if we should become hardened by the deceptive power of sin, then our roles could become locked in and we have to suffer the consequences.

Proverbs 22:3 A sensible person sees danger and takes cover, but the inexperienced keep going and are punished.

At the end of the day, there will be a Jezebel and those that prove to be her children but there will also be those found in Thyatira who act wisely and escape her end.
Just the same as there was a Jesus and there was a Judas.
These roles had to be played out by someone.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

If you know this, then you do well to avoid the bad roles and make the necessary changes when it is discerned you are going down the wrong path.

2 Timothy 2:20, 21 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Unfortunately, Jezebel will not look into the mirror hard enough to see what is out of place and make the change, her children and her supporters will copy her.

James 1:23,25 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Revelation

#345 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
3 months ago

The writer of the letters of John considers himself to be a teacher. He has thrown out the old treasures of the heart and replaced them with the new teaching that prevailed at that time. He writes, Young children it is the last hour, and just as you have heard the antichrist is coming, even now there are many antichrists from this we have the knowledge that it is the last hour... Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist the one that denies the Father and the Son... (1Jhn 2:18-22). Much of what he says, apart from this condemnatory diatribe, is spot on. But he was wrong about it being the last hour. And he was wrong in taking it upon himself to do the work of the son of man directing the angels to collect out of his kingdom all the things that cause stumbling and persons doing lawlessness, (Mt 13:41).
Regarding this last hour teaching, that you feel the Apostle John was in error over.
This is something that I contest YOU are in error with and again out of line, misleading others.
This is to be expected, as those who are not faithful in what is least cannot prove to be faithful in what is most.

Luke 16:10 “If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. But if you are dishonest in little things, you won’t be honest with greater responsibilities.

Some of the least things would be to acknowledge Jesus as being the Christ in the flesh and accepting his blood sacrifice as being vital in relation to our salvation.
As you have got these simplest of things wrong then how could you discern clearly more complicated things?

THE LAST HOUR TEACHING

Have you not considered that when the Apostles were alive and kicking that they acted as a restraint for lawlessness?
It was so said, quite clearly by the Apostle Paul, that this restraint or the one who was holding back an advancing lawlessness was soon to pass away.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

John was one of the last of the Apostles. He wrote his letters close to the end of the 1st Century.
During the time of the Apostles, many weeds were already starting to show but these were being kept in check - BY THE APOSTLES.

But after the Apostles were gone...
If the Apostles were light bearers, like the Christ, then a time would also come when darkness would overtake - after they were gone.

John 12:35,36 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

In this manner, the Apostle John discerned that he was indeed living during a symbolic last hour, before this darkness would overtake after his death.
This situation was alluded to in many other utterances in the scriptures: -

Acts 20:29,30 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Jesus sowed fine seed, aka the Apostles.
Afterwards, weeds were sown, sons of the Devil.
While the Apostles were there, they acted as a clear restraint to these weed like ones.

2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

But after the Apostles were gone, a different story would unfold, the weeds would have a field day.

THIS IS THE LAST HOUR THAT THE APOSLTE JOHN WAS REFERING TO - THE LAST HOUR BEFORE THE DARKNESS WOULD OVERTAKE AND WEEDS WOULD RUN RAMPANT - UNCHECKED

In teaching that the Apostle John was wrong you are elevating yourself above him and giving people reason to not listen to him or treat with suspicion his words.
This again is Jezebel like behavior.

Matthew 13:9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

Yes, you can quote Jesus here and there, giving the appearance of being Christian.
But even the Devil quoted scripture...

Matthew 4:5, 6 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ”

Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
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Re: Revelation

#346 Post by Stranger » 3 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 months ago
And place yourself in the category of the church father who penned the letters of John 1, 2, 3, reprimanding me for saying that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Christ and forbade his disciples from doing so. But what I don't understand is in what way, according to your analysis, do I mislead the slaves of Jesus to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols? Unless you consider my encouraging others to do their utmost to obey the teaching of Jesus as at Mt 5: 27-30 & Mt 19:3-12, is the same as telling them to commit fornication. And by advocating the hearing and heeding the words of Jesus as the primary obligation of Jesus’s slaves, that this is tantamount to telling the reader to eat foods sacrificed to idols. If that is what you meant then it might be advisable for you to do a bit of self-analysis and think clearly about the alternative you propose.

Hi Coccus,

Kerry has been drowning in JW doctrine and policies and hasn't got his lungs cleared yet. Hopefully in time he will make a full recovery.


Stranger, ( Heb 12:22-23)

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coccus ilicis
Posts: 773
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Re: Revelation

#347 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Revelation
Prelude to the thousand-year reign

The two witnesses part 1

John is given a little opened scroll and is told to eat it, and it was as sweet as honey in his mouth, but made his belly bitter, and the seven thunders said you must prophesy again with regard to peoples nations and tongues and many kings (Rev 10:2,10,11). He was then given a reed like a rod and told to measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it...(Rev 11:1) So this measuring is confined to those who believe themselves to be priestly servants of God.

And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days in sackcloth, (Rev 11:3).

Thank you, Amos, for the timely opening of the related topic in the thread ‘Election of Believers’ and your comprehensive coverage of the material in parts one, two and three.

Yes, I agree, that God had a plan from the very beginning. I also concede that he predestined what would occur, but he did not predestine individuals whom he used/uses to carry out the tasks as and when required.

In placing the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden, he knew that if not Adam, then one of his offspring would eat from it and had, therefore, warned them of the consequences. When they had eaten from that tree of self-determination, he prepared them for the outside world and told them what they could expect. He also knew of the serpent’s scheme to discredit Jehovah and that he would use humans to achieve it, (cf Job 1:6,8-11;2:4). He also knew that he would use human proxies in this battle between the Gods, and informed the serpent of the final outcome. (Gen 3:14,15). What he did not know is who would fall victim to Satan's persuasion and who would remain loyal to him.

Man had been made in God's image and like him could become jealous and fly off into a rage, even as he, himself, did when Israel made a cow idol, and the priestly class bowed down to it saying, this is your God, O Israel who brought you out of Egypt. He got so angry that he intended to destroy the lot of them and start again with Moses. Moses mollified him, telling him it would be against his own best interest and purpose if he did this, (Ex 32:7-11,12,13). Even as Jehovah had done when Cain flew into a jealous rage over his brother. At that time, Jehovah had told him what would happen if he allowed his anger to rule him and told him how he could conquer it, saying, If you turn to do good there will there not be an exaltation in heaven, (Gen 4: 6, 7). And indeed, there would have been exaltation in heaven since the Elohim knew what uncontrolled rage did to rational beings and how difficult it was to overcome it. If he had managed to conquer it, the woman’s seed would have come through Cain’s lineage rather than that of Seth.

Jehovah had had no foreknowledge of how bad man would become with every inclination of the thought of his heart being bad all the time so that Jehovah felt regret that he had made men in the earth and he felt hurt in his heart (Gen 6:5,6). He chose Noah and his family because compared to his contemporaries Noah was faultless, (Gen 6:9). But besides the Shem's and Japheth’s lineage, he also came to be the forefather of Nimrod, known as the mighty/gibbor hunter. The term 'gibbor' is first used Gen 6:4, so Nimrod appears to be a throwback to the sons of the unnatural sexual couplings between the disobedient sons of the Gods and daughters of men (Jud 6-8).

Jehovah made only two unconditional promises, or covenants, with man. The first one was at Gen 8:21,22; 9:12-17. And the second one with Abraham after he had attempted to offer up Isaac, saying to him ... for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, you only one... Before that Jehovah had not known how Abraham would react, and it was only when was about the kill his son that he made this covenant with Abraham ... by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of heaven and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore and your seed will take possession of his enemies... Which they have done and continue to do ... and by means of your seed [singular cf Gal 3:16], all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves, due to the fact that you have listened to my voice (Gen 22: 12, 16, 17, 18).

So other than God’s predestined purpose, from where does this notion of predestination come?
The word election itself, does not occur in the Old Testament and is only found a few times in the NT. (Rom.9:11, 11:5, 7, 28. 1Thes.1:4. 2Pet.1:10) However, several other words are used in both the OT and NT that convey the same meaning; elect, choose, chosen, foreknow, foreordained, predestined, ETC....“The Call” that brings this election to light, as in the case of Abraham, Israel and later all believers, has its origin in God’s prior determination, as illustrated in Rom. 8:28-30;
28; And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What is Predestination. The word itself simply means to predestine or to decide beforehand. Of course, that raises the question of ]what it is that was predestined]...
Had decided beforehand (Acts 4:28)
He predestined (Romans 8:29-30)
Destined (1 Corinthians 2:7)
He predestined (Ephesians 1:5)
Having been predestined (Ephesians 1:11)
And for that, it will be necessary to examine the biblical text where this term is used...Predestination is a topic that has widely disparate views, even among Christians. Some see predestination as essentially synonymous with divine determinism. That all your life choices and happenings are determined by God. Others view predestination as non-existent. A non-biblical doctrine.

Here is a selection of answers from Google: ... (in Christian theology) the doctrine that God has ordained all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others. It has been particularly associated with the teachings of St Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin.
...the act of predestinating: the state of being predestinated. 2: the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation.
...In religious terms, predestination is the belief that everything that happens has already been determined by God — He's got a master plan, and there's no deviating from it. ... Predestination is related to the concept of omniscience — meaning God knows everything...
...In Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. ... God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man.


So what did Paul say about it at Romans 8:29?
In the Latin Vulgate it says: nam quos praescivit et praedestinavit conformes fieri imaginis Filii eius ut sit ipse primogenitus in multis fratribus Latin Vulgate NT
...because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren
; Young’s Literal translation

Now let us compare this with the Heb. Eng. interlinear at Biblehub, Rom 8:29. Note the verbs 4267 foreknew and 4309 predestined have both been rendered as past tense verbs, i.e. completed action, conforming to the Latin Vulgate. And, at the Biblehub interlinear link site (link above) hover your cursor over the light blue acronym under each verb and you will see both verbs are aorist and not past perfect tenses denoting completed action.

Image

Aorist verbs give an overview or snapshot of the action, they do not indicate when the action takes place, past present or future as pictured here: Image


Thus it should say: For those whom he foreknows [at any instant in time, past, present or future] he predestines to be, [at that time, past, present or future] similar [adjective] to the image of his Son so that he , [the son], might be firstborn among many brothers... (Rom 8:29)

The Latin and modern language translations give the impression chosen individuals have already won the race and the rest are losers.

In the first century, Greek and Latin were common international languages. Jesus, having been raised in Egypt, most probably in Alexandria which had a large Jewish community, would have been fluent in both languages. Alexandria was where the Hebrew text was first translated into the Greek,(the LXX). When erudite teachers of the law heard what the twelve-year-old Jesus had to say, they were amazed at his understanding, (Lu 2:46,47). After his baptism, when God had acknowledged him as his son, the spirit led him into the wilderness where the Devil came to tempt him. He introduced his temptations by questioning his sonship, saying: if you are the son of God... (Mt 4: 3, 6), much in the same manner as he questioned Adam and Eve's relationship to their father, asking ... Is it really so that God has said... (Gen 3;1)

That Jesus fully understood the purpose for having been sent to earth,i.e. to fulfil/complete the law, and to be the stone to strike against and a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel, (Isa 8:14) is evidenced by his words ... I have a baptism with which to be baptized and now I am distressed until it should be finished... (Lu 12:50). And that he was aware of what form the stumbling block would take and that it would remain in place up to, and during the time of the son of man's presence, is evidenced by these words ... In fact, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. For, just as lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over western parts, so the presence of the son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles/vultures, [birds of prey], will be gathered together, (Mt 24:21-28). Church fathers have attempted to explain what he meant by this saying at Mt 24:28. Jesus, knowing how the LXX had translated the stone to strike against at Isa 8:14, knew what he said and why he said it. The English rendering of the Greek, Isa 8:14, is 'rock of downfall', but the Greek word ptoma, 4430 RH column is carcass, corpse, dead body, as at Mt 24:28.

See Isa 8:14 Greek Interlinear and compare it with the Hebrew interlinear here B/hub, Isa 8:14. Note (pic. below) that 3756 not has been inserted in the Greek text, and that 4430, ‘ptoma’ is rendered downfall even though its primary NT meaning is carcass or corpse and has replaced rock over which to stumble. Why the translators did this is unknown, perhaps it was in an effort to obfuscate. But Jesus was not fooled, he understood that it applied to Immanuel, himself, and used it to warn future invited ones.

Image

For those readers who missed it, a more comprehensive explanation of Isa 8:14 can be found in post 343, above

The race for life is still in progress, (1 Cor 9:24,25), for both those who will rule with the son of man, (Dan 7:13,14,27), and those who will survive the great tribulation (Rev 5:9,10; 7:14). So, as Paul said, it is necessary to run in such a way that you may attain it, [the prize].

Son of man a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel and you must hear from my mouth speech, and you must warn them, [cf Jhn 12:47, 48,49, 50]. When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually speak in order to warn the wicked one ... to preserve him alive... he being wicked in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand... And when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustices and I must put a stumbling block before him, [cf Isa 8:14], and he himself will die because you did not warn him. For his sin he will die and his righteous acts that he did will not be remembered, but his blood I will ask back from your own hand...And in case you have warned someone righteous that the righteous one should not sin, and he himself does not actually sin, he will without fail keep on living because you have warned him, and you yourself will have delivered your own soul.” (Ezk 3:17-21)

This is the work of the son of man causes his two witnesses to do, (Rev 1:13): saying: ...I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3,4)
LRW~

AmosAU
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Re: Revelation

#348 Post by AmosAU » 3 months ago

Hi CI,

You said above;
"I also concede that he predestined what would occur, but he did not predestine individuals whom he used/uses to carry out the tasks as and when required."

Thanks for stating this. I do agree with you and didn't think to make this clarifying thought.

To expand, YHWH knew the family that He would use, yet it could be suggested that He chose the person(s) ( or tribe) at the time of the required purpose to be played out. As you said.

Regards, Amos.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#349 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

AmosAU wrote:
3 months ago
Hi CI,

You said above;
"I also concede that he predestined what would occur, but he did not predestine individuals whom he used/uses to carry out the tasks as and when required."

Thanks for stating this. I do agree with you and didn't think to make this clarifying thought.

To expand, YHWH knew the family that He would use, yet it could be suggested that He chose the person(s) ( or tribe) at the time of the required purpose to be played out. As you said.

Regards, Amos.
Hi Amos,

Thank you for clarifying. He chooses from among those available at a given time, but each individual that he chooses must like Abraham run the race with endurance and can be eliminated along the way. That is why Jesus gives the warning to the ones he chooses at Mt 24:25 ... Look I have forewarned you... Does one know they have been chosen??? Jesus said he would send a spirit of truth to those who love him and observe his commandments during the time of the Son of man's presence, (Jhn 14:15,16,25,26; Mt 24:27), and that has also proved to be a stumbling block for the slave keeping on the watch, (Mt 24:39-42), and remains a problem to this day. I believe we are in that period of time now, but I could also be wrong. If I am, I hope I will have the fortitude to close the door again and to continue to wait and watch, (Lu 12:32,36,37). Interestingly Peter after hearing that illustration wanted to know if it also applied to them, the little flock, and Jesus answered... Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants...? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so, [keeping on the watch and being prepared to open the door the moment he knocks, Lu 12:35.36, 37, 41,42]

A good question.

I'm glad you're dealing with the subject, It is such a big issue for many emblem partakers among JW's and ex JWs. As for me, I look forward to having a glass of wine with Jesus when he comes into his kingdom, (Mt26:29), and concentrate on running the race with endurance.
LRW~

AmosAU
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Re: Revelation

#350 Post by AmosAU » 3 months ago

Hi CI,

One of the reasons I replied as I did in my last post is that I don't subscribe to the doctrine of "once saved always save".This doctrine possibly came about as a result of 16th century Calvinism.

I do believe that we can lose our election if we fail somewhere along the way and don't regain our position with YHWH before we die. I haven't always been of this understanding.

Like yourself, I haven't partaken of the bread and wine for 3 or 4 years. I'm prepared to wait, like yourself. I believe that many take the emblems (communion) in a ritualistic fashion, some even prideful. As we are not responsible for our calling and election, we need to give full credit to our Creator for our cleansed standing before Him. He does the refining of our personality and cares for our every need.

Praise be to YAH!

Regards, Amos.

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