Revelation

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Kerry Huish
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Re: Revelation

#331 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

Is Jesus sacrifice just for those who will rule with him?
Not according to John.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, there are those who have been selected to rule with the Christ, these are first, but there are also those whom Christ and the 'select' will rule over.

Revelation 7:13-17 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

It is the same blood and new covenant that cleanses and all.

1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Bottom line, Jesus blood sacrifice is absolutely nessasay and vital for salvation, to be teaching otherwise is a wicked, wicked lie.

Regards

Kerry

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#332 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 weeks ago
Is Jesus sacrifice just for those who will rule with him?
Not according to John.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, there are those who have been selected to rule with the Christ, these are first, but there are also those whom Christ and the 'select' will rule over.

Revelation 7:13-17 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

It is the same blood and new covenant that cleanses and all.

1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Bottom line, Jesus blood sacrifice is absolutely necessary and vital for salvation, to be teaching otherwise is a wicked, wicked lie.

Regards

Kerry
Thank you Kerry for tabling these verses, your search for supporting verse is very thorough.

Since the author of the 1st and 2nd letters attributed to John does not provide his name, who wrote them is unknown, but they were not written by John to whom Jesus gave Revelation (Rev 1:1). We also do not know what he had in mind when he said
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world's
Since Jesus did not say this, he may have had the Jewish cosmos/world in mind, as at Heb 4:3, (cf Ps 95:10,11). Or he may have had John the Baptist’s comment about the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world in mind. (Jhn 1:29). This church father also believed it to be the last hour ...Little children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard the antichrist is coming, even now there are many antichrists from which fact we have the knowledge it is the last hour....(1Jhn 2:18). The term Antichrist only appears in his letters, see RH column, here. It would have been coined after the followers of Jesus started calling themselves Christians. Google says: Followers of Jesus were first called “Christians” in Antioch. Acts 11:26. "…for a whole year, Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."... They were called "Christians" because their speech and behaviour were like Christ. Note the reason for which they adopted the epithet, Christian, because their speech and behaviour were like Christ's... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians Χριστιανός...meaning "follower of Christ"...comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one" with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership. In the Greek Septuagint, Christos was used to translating the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed.".

Here’s one clue as to why the writer of 1&2 John might have said this. The Greek interlinear shows that anointed/χριστός 5547 first occurs at Lev 4:3,5,16, ...If the priest, the anointed one is sinning so as to bring guiltiness upon the people ... Then the priest, anointed one, must bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting.... He was applying this role of the high priest to Jesus. That by dying he replaces the Aaronic priesthood and becomes the high priest of a new covenant, one making the old covenant obsolete. And in this way was able to redeem ones from the earth to become king priests in heaven, where the rulership of the new covenant would reside. But he extrapolated Lev 4:3 one step further applying it to non-Jews, when he said ...And he is the propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not only ours but the whole world's.

By that time they appear to have become convinced that the new covenant would have the same authority structure as the old. He says... by this we have the knowledge that we have come to know him, namely, if we are observing his commandments... He that says, “I have come to know him,” and yet is not observing his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in that person... (1Jhn 2:3,4). He himself, appears to have set himself above that dictum as he addresses his fellow servants of God as little children and judges them (1st Jhn 2:12,18,19, cf. Mt 7:1-5; 23:9,10) ... Young children, it is the last hour, and just as we have heard the antichrist is coming, [he does not say from where this expression came], even now there have come many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge it is the last hour. This is the proof he gives, which indicates that at that time they believed there ascention was imminent. ...They went out from us, but they are not of our sort, they would have remained with us, but they went out that it might be shown up that they are not of our sort and have an anointing of the holy one... (1Jhn 2:19). See anointed here, 1Jhn 20, 5545 χρίσματος, which is first used in the, Greek interlinear (LXX) at Ex 29:7...He continues ...Who is the liar, if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah/χριστός...(1Jhn 2:22). From this, it appears he sees them, his brothers, as an anointed priesthood, with himself fulfilling the role of high priest, the earthly representative of Christ on earth. This was the beginnings of the nascent lawlessness that was already at work while Paul was still alive, who had said: True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work until the one alone restraining it gets to be out of the way, then indeed the lawless one will be revealed... ((2Thess 2:3,4,5,7). Paul had died decades earlier, and these letters reveal the emergence of this lawless one, i.e. ones who considered themselves anointed high priests in succession, (2Thess 2:8).

When John the Baptist said: (Jhn 1:29)... “See the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, he most likely had the Jewish cosmos/world in mind because his baptism signified their repentance (Jhn 1:22,23, cf Isa 40:3, 27). The author who recorded what John the Baptist had said at that time is also unknown. Peter had asked concerning him ...Lord what will this man do... and Jesus had answered ...If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is it to you...This disciple wrote these things, (Jhn 21:22,23,24).

If Jesus willed that he should remain until he returns, he will be among those at the base of the altar, who cry out ...until when Lord, holy and true are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth... (Rev 5:10). White robes are given them and they are told to wait a little longer until their number is filled with their brothers who are about to be killed as they had been (Rev 6:10,11) The white robes that were given symbolized their having been redeemed by Jesus’s blood to make them fit for the heavenly calling. Their resurrection occurs after the two symbolic witnesses receive the invitation to come on up here, at the time of the blowing of the seventh trumpet,(Rev 11:12,15). This is the first resurrection over whom the second death has no authority (Rev 20:4,6).

After this, John sees a great crowd standing before the throne and the Lamb dressed in white robes, And he asks about them, and is told ..."These are the ones coming out, [pres. participle passive, middle voice], out of the great tribulation, and they wash, [aorist], their robes and make them white, [aorist], in the blood of the Lamb. This action is taken by them , they in effect cleanse and whiten themselves (cf Dan 12: 10). And on earth this great crowd serve the Lamb sitting on the throne of God day and night in his temple. And the one sitting on the throne will throw his tent over them ,[verb future], and they will hunger no more nor thirst any more, neither will the sun beat down on them, nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and will lead them, [future], to fountains of waters of life ... (Rev 7:14-17) These fountains of waters of life, are the same ones Jesus referred to when he said to the woman at the well ..."Whoever drinks of this water I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life." (Jhn 4:14).

So it appears that survivors of the great tribulation serve God on earth, inviting other survivors of the great tribulation, saying: ..."Come you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways and we will walk in his path... (Isa 2:3). In doing so they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, cleansing and whitening themself, in the same way that those who have the heavenly calling do so prior to his return. (Dan 12:10). Those whom Jesus addressed at Mt 5:3-10 would be part of this great crowd out of all nations that survives the great tribulation..

At Isa 65:1-25 Jehovah compares the new heavens and earth with the heavens and earth to the reality that then existed under the Law administered by successive high priests. And the writer of the letter to the Hebrews seems to have had this prophecy (Isa 65:16) in mind when he said ... and the one blessing himself in the earth will bless himself by the God of truth, [amen truth, or emun faithfuless], see Heb 9:24; 10:38.

Yes, the Lamb does eventually take away the sin of the world, but not by sacrificing his body for an original sin, as later promulgated by the man of lawlessness, but by leading people of all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues to the fountains of waters of life, namely his sayings, (Jhn 6:63). But as indicated in Isaiah 65 not all survivors of the great tribulation will want to drink these life giving waters, these ones a destined for the second death, (Rev 20:11-15).
LRW~

Kerry Huish
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Re: Revelation

#333 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

I have said enough.
I will move aside and let you get on with what it is you are doing.

Its too late, the suction has already got you...



Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

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Bruno
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Re: Revelation

#334 Post by Bruno » 2 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
2 weeks ago
I have said enough.
I will move aside and let you get on with what it is you are doing.

Its too late, the suction has already got you...



Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Nice video Kerry! You’re a man after my own heart. Unfortunately Jesus got in there before you.

Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)

New International Version 1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Karl

Phoebe
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Re: Revelation

#335 Post by Phoebe » 2 weeks ago

That videoclip where we see that Charlie was being tested.....and finally...✨
Keeping my heart full of hope and love for the ultimate victory of our Saviour...but of course....he has said....
‘It is finished’.

We are all the work of his hands.

Phoebe
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Re: Revelation

#336 Post by Phoebe » 2 weeks ago

Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)
👍✨

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#337 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Bruno wrote:
2 weeks ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
2 weeks ago
Nice video Kerry! You’re a man after my own heart. Unfortunately, Jesus got in there before you.
Charlie and the chocolate factory is a great film. It highlights how things are often not what they seem. What Willy Wonka was using the factory tour to accomplish, was hidden from the people participating in the tour. The factory tour was set up to draw out the children's different character traits, their thoughts and intentions, as demonstrated in your video. (Hebrews 4:12)
New International Version 1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
Thank you all contributors,

Nice analogy Bruno; yes, Jesus got in there before any of us even began to understand. God has been ahead all along and is in it for the long haul, making corrections here and there to keep us on track.

The adversary, Satan also plays a role in the movie to bring their weaknesses to the surface. although he only appears twice, he plays a key part of the whole. ...And war breaks out in heaven, [aorist]: Michael and his angels battle with the dragon, [aorist], and the dragon and his angels battle, [aorist], but he has not the strength, [aorist], neither is found for them, [ aorist pass.], a place any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon is hurled, [aorist pass.] the original/ancient serpent, the one who is being called, [pres. pass. participle], Devil and Satan, who is misleading, [pres. participle], the entire inhabited earth... (Rev 12:7-9)

Notice it says this ancient serpent is called Devil and Satan. It doesn't say that these are his alternative names but that that is what people call the original serpent when war breaks out in heaven. But this is a subject that needs to be dealt with at another time.

In post 329 Where I said
Putting it all together, Jesus gave his blood to free/manumit persons from every tribe, tongue, people and nation from slavery so that they would be fit to rule with him. Jesus had said to Jews that believed him “If you remain in my word you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free... They replied...never have we been slaves to anyone. But they were slaves to sin and death, and so Jesus said. Therefore if the Son sets you free you will actually be free...(Jhn 8:31,32,36). Once his sayings had reached the most distant parts of the earth others out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation were invited, (Rev 5:9,10).
In support, I added Jesus’s illustration about the king who prepared a marriage feast for his son. When those he had invited begged off with all manner of excuses, and some went so far as to beat up his slaves, treating them insolently. He sent out his army to destroy those murderers and burned their city, (cf. Mt 21:38; Jhn 7:19; Mt23:38; 24:2). And then said to his slaves ...Go, therefore, go on the roads leading out of the city and anyone you find invite to the marriage feast, (Mt 22:1-9). We know that the slaves followed the King's instruction starting out from Jerusalem. Before being raised to heaven Jesus had told them ...you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth ... Acts 1:8. And all they found along the way they invited. Initially, they passed on his teaching by word of mouth, those that went further afield may have transcribed his sayings and taken a hand-written copy along with themselves (see. Lu 1:1).

At Rev 2:1 to Rev 3:18. John sees someone like the 'son of man' standing in the midst of seven golden lamp stands (Rev 1:13) and holds seven stars in his right hand and has a sharp, long two-edged sword protruding from his mouth... This one says to John ...Write down what you see, [aorist], and the things that are, [present], and the things that are about, [present], to take place, [aorist] after these ...As for the sacred secret of the seven stars, that you see upon my right-hand, and of the seven golden lamp stands; The seven stars are messengers/angels of the seven congregations, [groups of invited ones] (Rev 1:12-20, cf. Heb 4:6,12; Jhn 12:48.49).

At the time when the things pictured in the visions of Revelation are about to be fulfilled, he sends a letter, assessing the performance of each of the congregation and instructions on what they must do to receive the stated reward, See post 329 here. Pergamon, where the son of man wages war with the two-edged sword most likely refers to those who use the Bible as their source document. Like Balaam at Peor (Rev 2:12,14), they give lip service to the words of God, repeating his sayings to get the reward, i.e. their personal salvation. In Balaam's case, it was status and monetary gain, (see Nu 22:13,16,17,18,19,30, 32,35; 24:1-9, 10,11, 12,13,14; 31:16). Smyrna and Philadelphia may refer to those who use the Torah as their source document and those Jews still waiting on God for repatriation. Those who hear what the Spirit says will know what they need to do.

The worldhistory.org - Viking Prophecy indicates that Nordic peoples may have heard the message and responded to the invitation.

Thor, son of Odin and the earth, is also destined to fall in this great battle, against the sea-serpent that will kill him with its venomous breath, [cf. Mt 12:14; 23:2,33]. The apocalypse gains momentum after the episode involving the most popular of the gods, as "the sun turns black the earth sinks in the sea / hot stars are whirled down / from heaven",, (Hildebrand, stanza 57), [cf Rev 6:12,13], ….
Is this truly the end? With humanity lost and the gods defeated? No, according to the poem the world will rise again, because there are still a few gods remaining and they gather and talk about the recent events and the fall of the master of runes, Odin
.

See, How to use Rune Stones for Divination. Rune stones are an ancient proto-Germanic tradition dating back to potentially the 1st century AD. They consist of a runic alphabet of 24 letters, usually made out of wood or stone that was used as a method of fortune-telling and protection sigils. The first completion of the total alphabet was the Elder Futhark runes in the 5th century AD, that are most often used still today, and then the Younger Futhark stones were adapted by the Vikings and other Nordic tribes and continued until Medieval times. Compare these with the stone in the High priest's preast piece, post 239, here.

His son Baldr returns ... fields are once more filled with ripe fruit... the nephews of Odin dwell in heaven, [cf Rev 11:12]. On the mountain Gimle, one can see a great golden hall with a mighty unnamed ruler, , [cf, Rev 21:10, 22,23; 22:1,22]. It seems like quite an intense story, but like many other aspects of Norse mythology, many pieces are missing from the puzzle and it has been suggested many times that Christianity might have influenced the last part of the poem, (underline, bold and inserted comments mine). This mighty ruler being unnamed supports the thought that Christianity influenced the last part of this poem. How so?

All their Gods had descriptive names that stood for the traits they were renowned for, i.e. Google Thor (/θɔːr/; from Old Norse: Þórr) is a hammer-wielding God associated with lightning, thunder, storms, sacred groves and trees, strength, the protection of mankind and also hallowing and fertility. . They would have asked the disciples, 'what does the name, Yehovah/Jehovah, stand for?' And on being told, it means 'He Comes to Be,' and thus Jehovah God means, 'He comes to be God.' Not understanding the implication, they refer to him as the unnamed ruler. And they gave Jesus/Yehoshua the name Baldr: Google: Baldr (anglicised Balder, Icelandic: Baldur) is the god of light, joy, purity, and the summer sun in Norse mythology,


In this video, the presenter, Mike Rugnetta, mentions others who may have been invited.


Since his target audience is most likely students his manner of speech is light.
At 7:16 on the timeline, he mentions the lake of fire, (cf Rev 19:20). And then moving on to the next poem Ragnarök, at 7:41, he says, the world has been destroyed by flames and all the people and gods are dead and everything is darkness,, [cf. Rev 6:12,13,14]. Except in this end of the world story there is a silver lining. Because the world is consumed by flames what remains is water. And as we see in the creation stories, water has some pretty impressive regenerative powers. Accordingly, the 'earth will rise again out of the water, fair and green’... It turns out that not all of the Gods perished in the massive inferno. Odin's sons Vidarr a Vali and Thor's sons Magni and Modi survive the fire... They are joined by Baldr and Hodi who have come back from the world of the dead . These ones and others round out the new pantheon of the Gods , (Rev 20:4,5,6). The best part is what happens when these new gods gather together. They sit down ... telling the stories that only they know, [cf. Rev 14:3,4,5], the same stories of the Norse gods that we are talking about now. ...
There's a lot to unpack in the Ragnarök myths... Starting with whether it's really a reflection of the pre-Christian Germanic tradition? You probably noticed the similarity between the Christian story of the apocalypse... But more importantly the most beautiful and beloved of the Gods, Baldr, returns from the dead...
Our main sources for this story, The Edas, were written down well after Christianity became dominant in Northern Europe and Iceland. Were the original myths influenced by Christianity?... Interestingly unlike some of the other apocalypses, those have a beginning and an end. The Christian and Zorastrian stories also establish the beginning of a new age... But Ragnarök, even though it's clearly set in the future, prefigures a renewed world that looks a lot like the old one. But is told almost as if it has already happened. The idea that the end of the world can also be its beginning isn't unique though ... In Hindu mythology the fourth age... sees humans afflicted by corrupt rulers and all the social order upended... and the world will be consumed first by drought and then by fire, followed by a storm lasting many years, and the rebirth of a new world here on Earth...This Indian apocalypse story and Ragnarök are both oddly hopeful... They explain that destruction is necessary for creation... Unlike the apocalypse story of the Bible's book of Revelation, they don't promise a new world only for the righteous,
(coloured text presenter's words, black insertions mine).
In saying this, the presenter may have had in mind the the born-again narrative, where only those that are born again go to heaven and the earth and all others are destroyed. Whereas Jesus spoke of a resurrection for everyone, both righteous and unrighteous, (cf John 5:27,28,29, see also Isa 65:20; Rev 20: 12, 13).

The disciples of Jesus who travelled to these distant lands most likely conveyed the message orally through a local interpreter. If they had written copies of the narrative, (cf Lu 1:1), then these would require translation into the indigenous language. Some peoples did not have a written language, i.e Australian aborigines ...Indigenous stories of dramatic sea-level rise across Australia date back more than 7,000 years in a continuous oral tradition without parallel anywhere in the world, according to new research, The Guardian . Even though distorted, the myths are similar to the biblical narrative and embedded as part of peoples' racial heritage. Today the Nordic people are pursuers of peace and co-existence, a complete reversal from their fierce marauding Viking heritage.

Proof that people have an inexplicable yearning for a renewed earth, one where their life has meaning, is demonstrated by the increasing suicides among young people. 11/09/2020 — The rate of suicide among those aged 10 to 24 increased nearly 60% between 2007 and 2018, according to a report released Friday ... More young people are dying by suicide, and experts aren't sure why

Someone like the son of man (cf Rev 1:13) says: ... All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take my evening meal with him and he with me. To the one that conquers, I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Let the one who has an ear hear what the Spirit says to the congregations , (Rev 3:19-22).
  • Go my people into your interior rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourselves but for a moment until the denunciation passes over...For look Jehovah is coming forth from his place to call to account the inhabitants of the Earth... and the earth will certainly expose her bloodshed and no longer cover over her killed ones, (Isa 26:20-21)
  • And look I saw a great crowd that no one was able to number... these are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,(Rev 7:9,14)
  • And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, (Rev 21:4)
  • And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal flowing out from the throne of God and the Lamb ...and on this side of the river and on that side there were trees yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations, (Rev 22:1,2)
That not only the righteous survive is indicated, when the angelic messenger says: ...Happy is anyone hearing the word of the prophecy of this scroll ... happy are those who wash their robes that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs, and they may gain entrance to the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone carrying on a lie... " 'I Jesus, sent my messenger/angel to the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star,' " And the spirit and the bride keep saying: "Come!" And let anyone hearing say: "Come!" And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes, take life's water free, (Rev 22:1,2,14,15,16,17).
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#338 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 days ago

Revelation 20
Seven Congregations pt 3
Cont. from post 337 above.

In post 329, after listing the seven congregations of invited ones I said
Jesus described it this way: The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. And he sent forth his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. So the king sent out another invitation after he had made all the preparations for the feast and they again begged off with all manner of excuses, and some went so far as to beat up his slaves and treated them insolently. This so angered the king that he sent out his army to destroy those murderers and burned their city (cf. Mt23:37,38; 24:2). Then, since the marriage feast was ready, but those invited not worthy, the King said to his slaves ...Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city and anyone you find invite to the marriage feast. Accordingly, the slaves went out to the roads, and gathered together all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those reclining at the table, (Mt 22:2-13)
There is yet another one of the congregations of invited ones, that needs to be looked at more closely, namely Islam

Love your neighbour: Islam, Judaism and Christianity
Faith leaders from Christianity, Judaism and Islam support government efforts to control the coronavirus....“The ability to go to your church or synagogue or mosque in a hard time is really important to people,” empathized Rabbi Sharon Brous in the LA Times...
Lessons from the Abrahamic faiths...As some individuals may be wary of following the preventative messages pertaining to COVID-19 by government and international organizations, faith actors
??? should utilize religious teachings to reiterate the importance of these measures for the safety of the community. The Abrahamic faiths all have teachings that profess the importance of taking action to assist others and save lives.
• The Bible encourages followers to “show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works”.
• The Quran tells us: “If anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole humanity.”
• In Judaism, the preservation of human life takes precedence over all other commandments, as emphasized in the Talmud.
In understanding how these teachings emphasize the importance of taking action, communities can be encouraged to follow government-implemented measures and practice social distancing in order to protect themselves.
'Cooperate to combat the disease'
Muslim clerics have emphasized regulations issued by governments by creating fatwas calling for a halt in organized religious gatherings and encourage communities to adhere to government calls of social distancing and self-isolating. Prominent Muslim scholar Shaykh Bin Abdullah Bin Bayyah, Chairman of the United Arab Emirates Council for Fatwa and President of the Forum for Promoting Peace in Muslim Societies, issued a fatwa calling on the community to obey the directives and instruction of governments in order, “to cooperate to combat the disease and halt its dissemination”.
, (underline and insertions, mine).
From the above one can see how Covid 19 plays a key role in the agenda to unite the world’s religion under the auspices of the 8th beast, the proposed Great Reset by the World Economic Forum, (Dan 7:8,24; Rev 17: 7,8,11).

But why include Islam as one of the peoples that would have been invited on the roads leading out of Jerusalem?

If you are like me, you may only have the vaguest idea of what Islam teaches, and much of that gleaned from Western media has been negative propaganda. Muslims believe that the Quran, the central religious text of Islam, was revealed to Muhammad by God, and that Muhammad was sent to restore Islam, which they believe did not originate with Muhammad but is the true unaltered original monotheistic faith of Adam, Ibraham, Musa, Isa, and other prophets... Born:Monday, 12 Rabi' al-awwal c. 53 BH/ c. 570 CE, Mecca, Hejaz, Arabia Died:Monday, 12 of Rabi' al-awwal c. 11 AH/ 8 June, 632 CE (aged 62 or 63 years) (Wikipedia). Note that at the time of Islam's beginnings the bible canon was complete. It was not until the 5th century that all the different Christian churches came to a basic agreement on Biblical canon. So Muhammad would have based his writings on the Latin Vulgate Bible of that time.

Here are some excerpts from the book Muhammad and the Bible. The book can be downloaded free here, https://www.academia.edu/36084514/Muham ... Of_Uramiah_

As you can see they trace their origins to Abraham through Ishmael, Image
We have already given an exposition of “the Son of Man” when we discussed the vision of Daniel,1 where he is presented to the Almighty and invested with power to destroy the Roman Beast
...“Revelations,” all unanimously describe the Deliverer of the people of God as “Barnasha” or “the Son of Men,” to distinguish him from the “Monster
[Dragon];” for the former is created in the image of God and the latter transformed into the image of Satan. 2. The Apocalyptic “Son of Man” could not be Jesus Christ ...This surname, “Son of Man,” is absolutely inapplicable to the son of Mary...
...He may be a “son of man” and a “messiah,” as every Jewish king, prophet, and high priest was, but he was not “the Son of Man” nor “the Messiah” whom the Hebrew prophets and apocalyptic foretold. And the Jews were perfectly right to refuse him that title and office. They were certainly wrong to deny him his prophethood
...
Here are some of the reasons why Islam does not believe Jesus was the son of man of Revelation.
What is extremely abnormal in the case of Jesus is that he is made to pretend his identity with “the Son of Man,” yet he is unable to do in the least degree the work that the foretold “Son of Man” was expected to accomplish! To declare to the Jews under the grip of Pilate that he was “the Son of Man,” and then to pay tribute to Cæsar; and to confess that “the Son of Man had nowhere to lay his head;” and then to postpone the deliverance of the people from the Roman yoke to an indefinite future, was practically to trifle with his nation; and those who put all these incoherences as sayings in the mouth of Jesus only make idiots of themselves...
Jesus knew better than everybody else in Israel who “the Son of Man” was and what was his mission. He was to dethrone the profligate kings and to cast them into the hell-fire. The “Revelation of Baruch” and that of Ezra -the Fourth Book of Esdras in the Vulgate speak of the appearance of “the Son of Man” who will establish the powerful Kingdom of Peace upon the ruins of the Roman Empire. All these Apocryphal Revelations show the state of the Jewish mind about the coming of the last great Deliverer whom they surname “the Son of Man” and “the Messiah.”... He could not assume either of those two titles to himself in the sense which the Sanhedrin - that Supreme Tribunal of Jerusalem- and Judaism attached to them; for he was not “the Son of Man” and “the Messiah,” because he had no political programme and no social scheme, and because he was himself the precursor of “the Son of Man’, and of “the Messiah” -the Adon
[Lord], the Conquering Prophet, the Anointed and crowned Sultan of the Prophets.

...A critical examination of the surname “Son of Man” put three and eighty times in the mouth of the master will and must result in the only conclusion that he never appropriated it to himself, and in fact he often uses that title in the third person.
[in this the author is correct]. A few examples will suffice to convince us that Jesus applied that surname to someone else who was to appear in the future... In the most coherent and significant passages in the discourses of Jesus where the appellation “Barnasha” - or “the Son of Man” appears, only Muhammad is intended, and in him alone, the prediction contained therein is literally fulfilled, (bold underline and insertion, mine).

Well, that last part is certainly telling. True, Jesus did not have political aspirations. On the contrary, he avoided being crowned king or being named Messiah/Christ at all costs, (Mt 26:63,64). It also reveals the reason why these three main contenders, Judah, Christendom and Islam, have been at loggerheads and fighting wars throughout the centuries. All believe they are the ones who will produce the son of man, the seed of the promise through whom ...all the nations will bless themselves. And Jehovah called Abraham again saying... “'By myself, I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies (Gen 22:15-18).

This is the son of man, to whom is given rulership dignity and kingdom, that the peoples national groups and languages should all serve him (Dan 7: 13,4; Rev 19:14-18). No wonder they were fighting and continue to fight to be the chosen holy ones of this son of man. Jesus said: But from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the Heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it...(Mt 11:12). That was certainly true of that time and still is the case today.

After John had said: ...See, the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world... two of his disciples left him and followed Jesus (Jhn 1:36,37). It was even as Jesus had said; they all wanted to be those holy ones who would rule with the son of man in his kingdom (cf. Mt 20:20,21; Dan 7:27). The early Christian church and Muhammad and Islam were no different. After saying this, Jesus added, ...For all the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John... (Mt 11:13). Does he here indicate that John was the last prophet? And that he, himself, was not a prophet as such, but was his Father's envoy, who uttered only those words his Father had commanded him to speak (Jhn 12: 47,48,49,50). And that he only did what he was instructed to do, (Mt 26:41,42)? All those eagerly seizing the kingdom were too busy shouldering each other aside to even begin to understand why he had been sent, (Isa 53:7, 8, 11, 12). He had come to be the stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel, (Isa 8:8, 14). Both houses of Israel referred to direct descendants of Jacob, and those who displayed a faith like Jacob when he had fought with God and men and had prevailed. At that time he was given the name Israel, which means to persevere and prevail with God and men, (Gen 32:27,28). So it applies to all those, who like him, later believed in the one God and were prepared to fight God and men to be associated with the seed of that promise.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam together with their offshoots, all have aspirations of holy ones who will rule with the son of man. At Rev 19:6,7,8 it says of them... I heard what was as a sound of a great crowd, and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said Praise Yah, [shortened for Yehovah], you people because Jehovah our God the mighty one has begun to rule as king, [cf. Ps 97:1], Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and let us give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” ... Happy and holy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage... (Rev 19:19; cf Mt 22:2-11)

So, ‘Yes,’ they have all been invited, but only a few chosen from amongst them. Only those who make the required changes, (Rev 3:19 -22), will be granted to be arrayed in bright, clean linen, (Mt 22:11, 14). Jesus had said that ...Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name and perform many powerful works in your name? And yet I will confess to them: I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness,(Mt 7:22,23) ...Immediately after the tribulation ... the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation... Why? is it because they realize too late that this is not the Jewish Messiah, or Christian Christ, or Islam's son of man, Muhammad. But this is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, whose bride has prepared herself, (Rev 19:7,8)...

What these three great religious bodies have not understood is that Immanuel/Jesus (Mt 1:23; Isa 8:8,14) came to fulfil the role of the sacrificial lamb described at Isa 53:6-9. He did not call himself Christ (Mt 16:20), and referred to the son of man in the third person because he did not presume to be that son of man to whom is given dignity rulership and kingdom, before it would be granted to him by the heavenly court, (Dan 7:14). When on earth he fulfilled the role of Immanuel and served as a stone to strike against and as a rock for stumbling to both houses of Israel, which included all those wicked and good (Mt 22:10) who were found on the roads leading out of Jerusalem, namely Christendom and Islam. Not understanding his role, they failed to carry out his instructions (Mt 28: 20; Jhn 12:47,48,49).

Those who understand and observe his words and like him do not consider themselves as chosen until, and if, it is granted them to be arrayed in bright clean fine linen, (Rev 19:8). Until that time they confine themselves to teaching peoples all the things Jesus had commanded them (Mt 28:20), namely the sayings of God (Jhn 6:63 12:48,49).
  • Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them... (Mt 5:3) This touched the heart of many of those present who were illiterate and not versed in the law. Today many similarly do not know what the Bible says but are conscious of a spiritual need. Jesus said the kingdom of the heavens belongs to such ones
  • Happy are those who mourn since they will be comforted...(Mt 5:4) Many today mourn about the bad things that are happening in the world. They will be comforted
  • Happy are the mild-tempered ones since they will inherit the earth...(Mt 5:5) Many today are mild-tempered and do not harm anyone. These ones will inherit the earth
  • Happy are the ones hungering and thirsting for righteousness since they will be filled...(Mt 5:6) How many are there out there that do not believe in God but are thirsting and hungering for righteousness, and Jesus here tells them that they will be filled
  • Happy are the merciful since they will be shown mercy...(Mt 5:7) Many who do not believe in God show mercy to others, and they will be shown mercy
  • Happy are the pure in heart since they will see God... (Mt 5:8) So too, today, many that do not yet know God but are pure at heart will see God
  • Happy are the peaceable since they will be called sons of God...(Mt 5:9) That is indeed good news for all the peaceniks of the world.
  • Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness sake since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to such ones...(Mt 5:10) Would that not touch the heart of all the whistleblowers, who have suffered unjustly because they brought that which is covered over to public attention (cf Mt 10:26)
For more on this see, posts 313 &319,here.
LRW~

Bobcat
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Re: Revelation

#339 Post by Bobcat » 6 days ago

He did not call himself Christ (Mt 16:20), and referred to the son of man in the third person because he did not presume to be that son of man to whom is given dignity rulership and kingdom, before it would be granted to him by the heavenly court, (Dan 7:14).

The commentary in Constable's Notes regarding Mt 16:20 has a bit different take on what Jesus said:
Jesus’ warning in this verse seems to run contrary to His purpose to manifest Himself as the Messiah to Israel for her acceptance (cf. Mark 8:30; Luke 9:21). Jesus wanted His disciples to keep a “messianic secret,” namely, that He was the Messiah. Jesus was not trying to conceal His true identity, but He was controlling how people would respond to Him (cf. Mt 12:38-39; 16:4). If the disciples had broadcast the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, some people would have tried to draft Jesus as a political liberator. However, Jesus wanted people to come to believe on Him because of the words He spoke and the works He performed (cf. Mt 11:4, 25-26). These were the tools God had ordained to give people divine insight into Jesus’ identity (Mt 11:27), as Peter had experienced (Mt 16:17).
“Contrary to common misappropriation of the messianic secret, it was not Jesus’ purpose to conceal his messianic identity. It was his purpose to set before Israel symbol-charged acts and words implying a persistent question: Who do you say that I am?” (Ben F. Meyer, The Aims of Jesus, p. 350, footnote 59; cf. pp. 250, 309-10, footnotes 119-20.)

Jesus wanted His disciples to stay within the means and limits that He had imposed on Himself for His self-disclosure. They should not appeal for people’s acceptance of Jesus because of nationalistic zeal or misguided messianic expectations but because of faith rooted in understanding. Jesus’ popularity on a superficial level could short-circuit the Cross. After Jesus’ death and resurrection, the disciples could take a more unrestrained approach to calling people to repentance and faith (cf. Mt 10:27). The disciples apparently grasped the danger of people accepting Jesus for superficial reasons, but they did not understand the threat of short-circuiting the Cross, as the next section shows. (Carson, Matthew, p. 375. Mt 16:20 NET)
“Why this prohibition? Because although the disciples correctly understand who Jesus is, they do not as yet know that central to Jesus’ divine sonship is death on the cross. Hence, they are in no position at this point to go and make disciples of all nations.” (Kingsbury, Matthew as . . ., p. 75.)

“In the second part of his story (Mt 4:17—16:20), Matthew tells of Jesus’ ministry to Israel (Mt 4:17—11:1) and of Israel’s repudiation of Jesus (Mt 11:2—16:20). Sent to Israel, Jesus teaches, preaches, and heals (Mt 4:23; 9:35; 11:1). He also calls disciples, and commissions them to a ministry in Israel modeled on his own (Mt 4:17—11:1). Israel’s response to Jesus, however, is one of repudiation (Mt 11:2—16:20). Still, even as Israel repudiates him, it wonders and speculates about who he is. Wrongly, the religious leaders think of him as one who acts in collusion with Satan (Mt 9:34; 12:24), and the Jewish public imagines him to be a prophet (Mt 16:13-14; 21:46). In stark contrast to Israel, the disciples, as the recipients of divine revelation, are led by Jesus to think about him as God ‘thinks’ about him, namely, as the Messiah Son of God (Mt 16:15-17; 14:33). Nevertheless, because the disciples do not know at this point in the story that the central purpose of Jesus’ mission is death, Jesus commands them to silence concerning his identity (Mt 16:20).” (Ibid., pp. 161-62.)

To me, this makes a lot more sense given the fact that Peter had just said to Jesus, "You are [present indicative active verb] the Christ." And Jesus reply to that was that Peter was blessed because Jesus' Father had revealed that to him. (Mt 16:16-17) To say that Jesus was not yet the Christ is to make either Jesus or his Father out to be a deceptive liar. (1Jo 2:22 NET)


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation

#340 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
6 days ago
He did not call himself Christ (Mt 16:20), and referred to the son of man in the third person because he did not presume to be that son of man to whom is given dignity rulership and kingdom, before it would be granted to him by the heavenly court, (Dan 7:14).
The commentary in Constable's Notes regarding Mt 16:20 has a bit different take on what Jesus said:
Jesus’ warning in this verse seems to run contrary to His purpose to manifest Himself as the Messiah to Israel for her acceptance (cf. Mark 8:30; Luke 9:21).
“Why this prohibition? Because although the disciples correctly understand who Jesus is, they do not as yet know that central to Jesus’ divine sonship is death on the cross. Hence, they are in no position at this point to go and make disciples of all nations.” (Kingsbury, Matthew as . . ., p. 75.)
To me, this makes a lot more sense given the fact that Peter had just said to Jesus, "You are [present indicative active verb] the Christ." And Jesus replies that Peter was blessed because Jesus' Father had revealed that to him. (Mt 16:16-17) To say that Jesus was not yet the Christ is to make either Jesus or his Father out to be a deceptive liar. (1Jo 2:22 NET)
Bobcat
Hello Bobcat

Thank you for your reply and for tabling this scholarly view. Constable quotes several theologians to support his supposition, as is the practice amongst the scholarly tribe. He quotes Meyer
“Contrary to common misappropriation of the messianic secret, it was not Jesus’ purpose to conceal his messianic identity. It was his purpose to set before Israel symbol-charged acts and words implying a persistent question: Who do you say that I am?” (Ben F. Meyer, The Aims of Jesus, p. 350, footnote 59; cf. pp. 250, 309-10, footnotes 119-20.)
Kingsbury says:
“Why this prohibition? Because although the disciples correctly understand who Jesus is, they do not as yet know that central to Jesus’ divine sonship is death on the cross... (Kingsbury, Matthew as . . ., p. 75.)
So it appears this controversy was not new even at that time but it was dismissed for the reasons given, namely the doctrine of original sin which was first mooted in the 2nd century, (cf. Jhn 6:35,41,51,54,55,56,61,62,63). It came to be the foretold stone to strike against and the rock over which to stumble, (Jhn 6:27; Isa 8:8,14,16),

Prior to Jesus forbidding his disciples to say he was the Christ/Messiah, he had said to Peter: Also I say to you, you are Peter, and on this rock-mass, I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overpower it... The Catholic church claimed Peter as their first Pope, saying he was that rock mass.
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Now compare this with petra at Isa 8:14 of the Greek (LXX) Interlinear.

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And note the LXX has inserted the word 'not,' completely changing the meaning of the text.

Here is the Heb. interlinear of Isa 8:14
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In this, the English rendering has been sabotaged, using the invented waw consecutive grammatical rule, replacing the ' and' with a ' but,' to align it with the Latin Vulgate. Isaiah 8:14
  • 14 et erit vobis in sanctificationem in lapidem autem offensionis et in petram scandali duabus domibus Israhel in laqueum et in ruinam habitantibus Hierusalem
    And he shall be a sanctification to you. But for a stone of stumbling, and for a rock of offence to the two houses of Israel, for a snare and a ruin to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Thereby making it seem that the two houses of Isreal apply solely to Jews.

Jews had determined that he was the Messiah who would rid them of the Roman yoke, but he did not comply (Jhn 6:14,15), as I explained to you in my reply, post 319, here. He knew the role he was to play, (Isa 8:8,14), and fulfilled it to the letter, not deviating by one iota.

Jesus chose Peter to be the recipient of the keys of the kingdom, (Mt 16:19), and after telling them not to call him the Christ, he told them he would be killed and raised. Peter, convinced that he is the Christ/Messiah, rebuked him, saying ...you will not have this destiny at all. Turning his back on him, Jesus says ... get behind me Satan...you are a stumbling block to me , [as at Mt 13:41], because you think, not God’s thoughts but those of men, (Mt 16:21-23). At that time Peter was still a fleshly man, thus he could later speak from experience when he said ...Beloved, I exhort you as alien residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires the very ones which carry on a conflict against the soul... (1Pet2:11)

Jesus had given Simon the name Peter/Petros. Andrew had led his brother Simon to Jesus and Jesus said ... “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas, which means Peter.... (Jhn 1:42). Jesus had deliberately chosen Peter for the role he was, unknowingly, to play. Jesus knew his own role only too well and fulfilled it to the letter, (Isa 8:8,14). His heavenly Father commanding his every step, commanding him what to say and what to speak. (Jhn 12:49)

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When Constable had written: Jesus wanted His disciples to keep a “messianic secret,” namely that He was the Messiah, Jesus was not trying to conceal His true identity, etc., it was not the time when the seventh angel was about to blow his trumpet, (Rev 10:4,7). So what Constable and others said at that time was no more than a scholarly supposition firmly rooted in the doctrine of original sin; something Jesus did not teach.
Augustine built his doctrine of original sin upon this premise that sexual lust in procreation transmits sin. Harnack says: The most remarkable feature in the sexual sphere was, in his view, the involuntariness of the impulse, Origin and History of Original Sin. Whereas Jesus said: ...You heard it said,' you must not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone that keeps looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart... If however, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away for it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. So it seems what Jesus said about it has been put in the too-hard basket, pun not intended, and the original sin doctrine is a cop-out.

Today, nearly fifty years later, what was covered over is being uncovered (Mt 10:26,27)... And in the days of sounding the seventh trumpet, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish/completion, [same as at 1Cor 13:10],(Rev 10:7). The time when this occurs is just prior to the fall of Babylon the Great (Rev 14:8). I could be wrong it might yet take another fifty years. But I doubt this old world will keep on keeping on for that long. But what is patently clear is that Jesus knew exactly what he was doing and why he spoke as he did. He knew he was to be a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel and as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem (Isa 8:14; cf. Rom 11:7-9). And that trap and snare is still in place and will remain in place until he returns.

Islam and the Return of Jesus
Both Islam and Christianity expect the return of Jesus at the end of times, and both expect trials and tribulations to occur at the time ...Islam sees Jesus’ return as a completion of his life and work, which he left incomplete... Both religions expect the nation of believers to be the final victors, but the Christian believes that these are defined as the believers in the Gospel of the New Testament and in Christ as ‘the Savior’ and ‘the Incarnation’ of God, whilst the Muslim knows that it refers to those who believe in the pure monotheism entailed in submission to the One and Only True God.
As the true Messiah, he alone has the power granted to him by God to defeat the false Messiah at the end of time... Both Islam and Judaism regard the coming of the Messiah as essentially uniting, gathering believers together from the ends of the earth ...Where they differ is in who this end of time figure represents. To the Jews, the Messiah necessarily will be a Jewish leader who re-establishes Israel and the temple and all its rites in Jerusalem. To the Muslim, he represents the champion of pure Islam, sorting hypocrites from true believers ...All three visions of the Messiah at the end of time hold something in common....


Each, in their own way vying for ascendency, justifying their belief by substituting their words for those of Jesus, who said:
He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. Because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father who sent me has given me a commandments as to what to tell and what to speak ,(Jhn 12:48,49),
All three have stumbled and fallen into the trap. And that is a hard pill for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to swallow.

And the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation when they will see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory...Mt 24:30 ...and the spirit of life entered into them, [the two witnesses], and they stood upon their feet and a great fear fell upon those beholding them... (Rev 11:11)

All anticipate and look forward to the return of the Messiah, the son of man or Christ (Mt 24:24,25,26), and yet, all the tribes of the earth beat themselves in lamentation when he does. Why!
LRW~

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