Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

[Kerry Huish]

The '7 Trumpets' can only start to occur after ALL of Christ's brothers have been sealed.
This is made clear to us by closely considering Revelation 7.

Hi Kerry,
The book of Revelation consists of several visions about the end time. That means that the time line is not linear throughout the book.

Regardless of the order of particular visions, the vision of Revelation 7 is clear, the 'wind' is being held back until the last of Christs brothers is fully brought to birth.

Once the last of these are sealed then the end starts.

Regards

Kerry

[Kerry Huish]

I have some questions about events around Armageddon. Among them what is the fall of Babylon and when exactly is it destroyed?

From the very start of the Great Tribulation, false religion will be judged.
From the blowing of the 1st trumpet, a third of the trees and earth and all green grass is burned and all the weeds.
These Trees, Earth, Grass and Weeds are symbolic of a certain groups of peoples...

(Revelation 8:7) The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up.

(Matthew 13:30) . . .First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

By the time the 4th trumpet is blown, the UN will start to subjugate false religion.
Those who once shone as illuminators in this world, will be opposed and exposed.

(Revelation 8:12) And the fourth angel blew his trumpet. And a third of the sun was smitten and a third of the moon and a third of the stars, in order that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not have illumination for a third of it, and the night likewise.

(Revelation 17:16) And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.

By the time the 7th trumpet is blown, all religions would have been made subject to the UN.

(Revelation 11:7) When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.

To understand the judgment process...

1st - Jehovah’s spirit bears witness with your own life-force - some are experiencing this right now, many of which are caught among false religion.
At the start of the Great Tribulation, the spirit, or winds will be unleashed upon the entire inhabited earth.
Everyone will have Gods spirit bearing witness with them.

2nd - If a person is found unworthy of life, then the life-force upon which Gods spirit is operative, is consumed.
(Hebrews 12:29) For our God is a consuming fire.

3rd - A person without a life-force is just dust - those who are rejected in this way by the Creator, become food for Satan.

(Genesis 2:7) And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
(Genesis 3:14) . . .you will eat dust all the days of your life.

Satan is able to keep these ones alive temporarily, he becomes their life-force.
But when they die, there is no resurrection.
Although Satan promises freedom, one who is joined to him in this way is dragged along in his purpose.

(Revelation 12:4) . . .its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, . . .

Usually, when a person dies, their life-force retunes to the Creator for later retrieval by means of resurrection.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

This is not so with one who has been stripped of life, and judged unworthy of life by the Creator while they were alive.
This is how it is possible to be thrown into the symbolic fire, while still alive.

(Revelation 19:20) And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.

This is how one can be blotted out form God's Book: -

(Exodus 32:33) However, Jehovah said to Moses: “Whoever has sinned against me, I will wipe him out of my book.

These ones will die without the possibility of resurrection.

Notice that the Goats have been cursed by the Father - while they were still yet alive: -

(Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

These also, when they die in the flesh at Armageddon, will die forever…

At Armageddon - the 7th and final Bowl - the whole system will become divided against itself, it will split into three parts…

(Revelation 16:17-21) The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.

Some stumble here, as it again speaks of Babylon the Great as if it is still existing…
The nations would have earlier conquered this city, but upon conquering it, they have become it…
This is much like when one country invades and takes over another, the country does not cease to exisit, does it, its just a change of managment...

The whole system will finish each other off, much like the pattern that was set here, with these THREE Nations: -

(2 Chronicles 20:22, 23) When they began joyfully singing praises, Jehovah set an ambush against the men of Amʹmon, Moʹab, and the mountainous region of Seʹir who were invading Judah, and they struck each other down. And the Amʹmon•ites and the Moʹab•ites turned against the inhabitants of the mountainous region of Seʹir to destroy and annihilate them; and when they finished with the inhabitants of Seʹir, they helped to destroy one another.

Remember, Jesus said: -

(Matthew 12:25) . . .he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Many do not like and refuse to consider such things.
This however does not change what is in store, it just robs them of precious time where they could be making progress towards salvation...

Kind Regards

Kerry Huish

[Kosonen]

Hi Kerry, I thought this would be interesting for you. (I posted the same on an other forum today.)

The WT organization puts much importance on 1918 and 1919. But those beliefs are farfetched applications on Bible prophecies obscuring the urgent need to understand the true meaning of those prophecies. Because it will affect all Jehovah's witnesses. Let's see why those explanations are untrue. For example the publication Daniel's prophecy dp gives some explanations that can quite easily be debunked. Here is the explanation from jw.org:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101999037#h=25

10 Has there been such a spiritual revival of God’s anointed servants in the time of the end? Yes! It is a historical reality that in 1918 a small remnant of faithful Christians were subjected to an extraordinary attack that disrupted their organized public ministry. Then, against all likelihood, in 1919 they returned to life in a spiritual sense. These facts fit the description of the resurrection foretold at Daniel 12:2. Some did “wake up” spiritually at that time and thereafter. Sadly, though, not all remained in a spiritually alive state. Those who after being awakened chose to reject the Messianic King and who left God’s service earned for themselves the ‘reproaches and indefinitely lasting abhorrence’ described at Daniel 12:2. (Hebrews 6:4-6) However, the faithful anointed ones, making good use of their spiritually revived state, loyally supported the Messianic King. Ultimately, their faithfulness leads, as the prophecy states, to “indefinitely lasting life.” Today, their spiritual vitality in the face of opposition helps us to identify them.



16 Daniel’s account continues: “And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: ‘It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.’” (Daniel 12:7) This is a solemn matter. The angel raises both hands in an oath, perhaps so that this gesture is visible to the two angels on opposite sides of the broad river. He thereby emphasizes the absolute certainty of the fulfillment of this prophecy. When, though, are these appointed times? The answer is not as difficult to find as you might think it is.



17 This prophecy is remarkably similar to two other prophecies. One, which we considered in Chapter 9 of this publication, is found at Daniel 7:25; the other, at Revelation 11:3, 7, 9. Note some of the parallels. Each is set during the time of the end. Both prophecies concern holy servants of God, showing them to be persecuted and even temporarily unable to carry out their public preaching activity. Each prophecy shows that God’s servants revive and then resume their work, foiling their persecutors. And each prophecy mentions the duration of this time of hardship for the holy ones. Both prophecies in Daniel (7:25 and 12:7) refer to ‘a time, times, and half a time.’ Scholars generally recognize this to mean three and a half times. Revelation refers to the same period as 42 months, or 1,260 days. (Revelation 11:2, 3) This confirms that the three and a half times in Daniel refer to three and a half years of 360 days each. But when did these 1,260 days begin?

18 The prophecy is quite explicit as to when the 1,260 days would end—when there is “a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces.” In the middle of 1918, leading members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, including its president, J. F. Rutherford, were convicted on false charges, sentenced to long terms of confinement, and imprisoned. God’s holy ones did indeed see their work ‘dashed to pieces,’ their power broken. Counting back three and a half years from mid-1918 brings us to the end of 1914. At that time the little band of anointed ones were bracing themselves for the onslaught of persecution. World War I had broken out, and opposition to their work was mounting. For the year 1915, they even based their yeartext on this question that Christ asked his followers: “Are ye able to drink of my cup?” (Matthew 20:22, King James Version) As predicted at Revelation 11:3, the 1,260-day period that ensued was a mournful time for the anointed—it was as if they were prophesying in sackcloth. Persecution worsened. Some of them were imprisoned, others were mobbed, and still others were tortured. Many were disheartened by the death of the Society’s first president, C. T. Russell, in 1916. What, though, was to happen after this dark time concluded with the killing of these holy ones as a preaching organization? (End of quote)



These claims of severe persecution are unfortunately exaggerated and do not nearly correspond to the prophecies.

That is because the WT organization did not cease to continue its work despite some 8 leading brothers sent to prison. The Proclaimers book does not at all give a such grime picture of the years 1914-1919 conserning the WT organization.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101993007 Proclaimers book jv:

"Through the close of 1917 and into 1918, the Bible Students energetically distributed the new book, The Finished Mystery. By the end of 1917, the printers were busy on the 850,000 edition. The Watch Tower of December 15, 1917, reported: “The sale of the Seventh Volume is unparallelled by the sale of any other book known, in the same length of time, excepting the Bible.”

"But not everyone was thrilled with the success of The Finished Mystery. The book contained some references to the clergy of Christendom that were very cutting. This so angered the clergy that they urged the government to suppress the publications of the Bible Students. As a result of this clergy-inspired opposition, early in 1918, The Finished Mystery was banned in Canada. Opposition soon mounted against the Bible Students in the United States." (End of quote)

During the time the leading brothers were in prison the activity continued at the WT organization. The Proclaimers book goes on to tell:

"Back in Brooklyn an Executive Committee was appointed to take charge of the work. A chief concern of the brothers appointed was to keep The Watch Tower in circulation. The Bible Students everywhere certainly needed all the spiritual encouragement that could be given them. In fact, during this entire “testing season,” not one issue of The Watch Tower failed to appear in print!*"

(.......)

Nevertheless, a good spirit prevailed. Martha Meredith recalled: “We in Pittsburgh got together and decided we were going to keep ‘the home fires burning’ until the brethren got out of prison. At that time the Brooklyn office was moved to Pittsburgh, so the brethren got busy writing articles for The Watch Tower and had it printed. When The Watch Towers were ready to be sent out, we sisters wrapped them and sent them out to the people.”(End of quote)

So where was the dashing in to pieces in 1914-1919? According to Daniel 12:7 ‘It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.’” (Daniel 12:7)

And because evidently this prophecy had no relation to 1914-1919 we should ask ourselves if that is instead something the WT organization will soon experience. And not only the WT organization but the anointed in general?

[goghtherefore]

Re: "According to Daniel 12:7 ‘It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.’” (Daniel 12:7)"


A quote: "And Yet it is Universally accepted that "A Time, Times, and half a Time" is Three and One Half Years. But that's NOT what the Bible says. God certainly had access to the word "Year" if he wanted to use it. (*and see ThoughtSherd No.7)

But if you use the more correct term "Season" in all three Scriptures (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, & Rev 12:14), (keeping in mind that a season in the Middle East is 6 months not 3 months, only two seasons there; summer & rainy) it becomes One Year and 9 months, or, Half of Three and One Half years."

From a web site: http://www.musingsaboutgod.com/Thought-Sherds.htm (Thought-Sherds #8)

Greetings

goghtherefore

[goghtherefore]

Further: "A Time, Times, and half a Time.....

This Phrase is somewhat unique in the Bible, in that it is one of the few phrases that occurs in each of the Three languages that the Bible was written in i.e. Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek.
The word for time(s) in Aramaic is; iddan (Dan 7:25) Strong's H5732

The word for time(s) in Hebrew is; mow'ed (Dan 12:7) Strong's H4150

The word for time(s) in Greek is; kairos (Rev 12:14) Strong's G2540

Kairos is never translated as "year".
Mow'ed is never translated as "year".
Iddan is never translated as "year".
All can be correctly translated as "Season".
Thus, in this unique phrase, the Bible actually has an internal, phrase-specific, "Rosetta Stone" that precludes the use of the word Year...."

http://www.musingsaboutgod.com/Thought-Sherds.htm

goghtherefore

[Kosonen]

But if you use the more correct term "Season" in all three Scriptures (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, & Rev 12:14), (keeping in mind that a season in the Middle East is 6 months not 3 months, only two seasons there; summer & rainy) it becomes One Year and 9 months, or, Half of Three and One Half years."

Goghtherefore, from the Bible we can see that time times and half a time equals to 1260 days or to 42 months. Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:13 and Revelation 11:2,3 are a simple testimony to this.

In addition I found an other explanation in the jw online library.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101999025

During Nebuchadnezzar’s madness, “his very hair grew long just like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.” (Daniel 4:33) This took longer than seven days or seven weeks. Various translations read “seven times,” and alternatives are “appointed (definite) times” or “time periods.” (Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32) A variant of the Old Greek (Septuagint) reads “seven years.” The “seven times” were treated as “seven years” by the first-century Jewish historian Josephus. (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 10, Chapter 10, paragraph 6) And certain Hebrew scholars have viewed these “times” as “years.” “Seven years” is the rendering in An American Translation, Today’s English Version, and the translation by James Moffatt.

[goghtherefore]

Hi Kosonen

Thanx for posting references.

I do, however, understand that although the "times"/"seasons" scriptures can be symbolic of larger time frames, they (the "times/seasons" scriptures) could also be possibly literal...Times/seasons will tell!

Christian love,

goghtherefore

[Bobcat]

On this post, under the sub-title, Let Seven Times Pass Over It, there is a link to the book, The Gentile Times Reconsidered, that discusses dating problems related to Nebuchadnezzar's seven times of madness.

Those problems leave open the possibility that the "seven times" were not necessarily seven years.

In connection with Dan 12:7, this post (and related links) discuss this 3 1/2 times in relation to Nero's persecution of Christians starting sometime after the fire of Rome in June 64 AD. The post postulates that the 3 1/2 times was a literal 42 months.

At this point in my research on Dan 7:25 I am kind of thinking that the 3 1/2 times of Dan 7:25 relates to a period leading up the change from the 7th to the 8th world power (which would argue for sometime close to the great tribulation since the 8th king of Rev 17 only rules for "one hour"). (Cmp. Dan 7:26)


Bobcat

[John S]

Read Rev. 12:6 and verse 14.

3 and a half times is 1,260 days...3 1/2 years

[AmosAu3]

Read Rev. 12:6 and verse 14.

3 and a half times is 1,260 days...3 1/2 years

Hi John,

I agree with you about the use of "time, times" in Revelation. It must be remembered that the quotes from Daniel are from an entirely different language, time and culture.

I think that Goghtherefore has an excellent thought in his posts #24 and 25, above.

As myself and others have been stressing recently, many words have been translated wrongly in both the OT & NT. This is a typical example of this.

Regards, Amos.