Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

[Kosonen]

Do you mean that there will be a 3 and half year time of persecution, especially of the anointed, the holy ones before Armageddon, a period that has not yet begun? As stated in Daniel 12:6,7

Yes.

And what do you say about Daniel 8:23-25? You said it is the king of south, USA. Could Donald Trump play that role in the future?

Thanks Kerry, its nice that at least some understand, like you and me, (maybe still some more?) that before Babylon the Great is destroyed, there will come a period of 3 and half years, that will be difficult.

I just finnished reading the WT publication explaining who played the role of king of the north and south. I learned that Rome became the king of the north after Syria. But later the queen of Palmyra challenged Rome. So Syria plays for a moment the role of king of the south, because Palmyra is in Syria. Then later the king of the north expands further to north at the time of the Holy Roman Empire. Including Germanic lands. But when Germany is defeated by Brittains and USA, according to my logic USA should replace Germany as king of the North. And now USA has been the clearly dominant power for 30 years and has expanded its military presence. I saw a number somewhere that USA has military personal in 75% of countries of the world.
But the war in Syria has not gone as planed. USA's goal was to overthrough president Assad, but Russian warships with weaponry, material and troops came to Syria's aide and frustrated USA's war against Assad. Interestingly Russian warships come and go through Cyprus. And Cyprus is Kittim. So here we have a direct fulfilment to the prophecy about ships from Kittim coming to the aide of Syria, who play the role of king of the south. Now Syria has not only Russia on its side, but also China and Iran.

This will infuriate USA, and USA has 80 000 troops in the middle east. So we can later expect a lot of war there. But I believe Trump does not want to go to war before the elections. Because that would make his voter base very disappointed. But after the elections it will be an other story. To me it looks much more likely that USA will act as the king of north and fulfill what is said about the king of the north at the end of Daniel 11.

[Stranger]

This will infuriate USA, and USA has 80 000 troops in the middle east. So we can later expect a lot of war there. But I believe Trump does not want to go to war before the elections. Because that would make his voter base very disappointed. But after the elections it will be an other story. To me it looks much more likely that USA will act as the king of north and fulfill what is said about the king of the north at the end of Daniel 11.

Hi Kosonen,

With your statement above it would seem you've predicted the outcome of the election coming up in the 2020 presidential race.

Have you pondered the persecution that Trump so far has sustained by the democrats? So far it's been a little over 3 years worth and the impeachment is in progress and has a very good possibility of ending at the 3 and 1/2 year mark!

If that were to happen, how would that play into your modern day prophetic prophecies?


Stranger, (Heb 13:2)

[John S]

Its good to see you all come here to discuss King North/South.

I was taught through the ‘Your Will Be Done on Earth’ book by WT printed way back there in the 60’s .

It was as Good a rundown as any, because most all of the 1 1/2 million of us Witnesses had no clue any of that occurred, or if anything fulfilled those roles in history....

And to this day, I’m sure we will not know every true aspect until after the resurrection or Christ shows us the way it all was.

I think one explanation of the KON is China? One Russia?

But we will know when it occurs.

Personally, I think all religion is going to be confronted by the last great Wild Beast and destroyed, and that’s when Christianity as religion is destroyed too. Only the faithful followers of Christ will be left when the lukewarm or unfaithful tale the mark of the beast and they are doomed, as the word describes .

When the sons of God are killed outright, or begin to be slaughtered , then Christ comes into save the Great Crowd out of the Tribulation.

Trump? A pawn. There are demonic rulers in this mix, unseen, and with an agenda the scriptures explain in detail. World rulership, and the mark of the beast.

So I think we will see a last great beast emerge, and one world government...not the UN, something great with supertech, and real power. Something like men from the stars in great ships, not ,merely ocean going , either.

People are prophesied to say at that time, “Who is like the Wild Beast? And who can do battle with it?”

I think we will see Satan and his armies of heaven come literally, and say, ‘we are the ones who created you before the Flood. look we shall show you our old kingdoms, and our technology we had way back then to erect these structures !

But we bring you much more now....and we can deliver you from our old arch enemy, Jesus, who brought evil selfish Christianity to the world with its condemnations of ALL YOU DESIRE!”

.

[Kerry Huish]

Thanks Kerry, its nice that at least some understand, like you and me, (maybe still some more?) that before Babylon the Great is destroyed, there will come a period of 3 and half years, that will be difficult.

Hi Kosonen,

I think you will find that Christ's brothers will be done away with along with Babylon the Great during the 2nd phase of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel 12 refers to 3 specific time periods.

1st phase = 1260 days (3.5 times)
2nd phase = 1290 days
3rd phase = 1335 days

It is during this 2nd phase that Revelation 11 will come into full effect.

Revelation 11:3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 11:7-10 And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodʹom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled.  And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

And also Revelation 17: -

Revelation 17:15-17 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.  For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished

Christ's brothers will be put to death as criminals by Satan's world, just like their Lord was...

Isaiah 53:9 And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.

Notice Revelation speaks of Jesus's again somehow being pierced by his enemies.

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

This is because mistreatment and abuse of Jesus's brothers is taken personally by Jesus.

Matthew 25:45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’

A similar expression was made by Jehovah.

Psalms 110:15 [Saying:] “Do not YOU men touch my anointed ones, And to my prophets do nothing bad.”

Zechariah 2:8 For this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Following after [the] glory he has sent me to the nations that were despoiling YOU people; for he that is touching YOU is touching my eyeball.

From the moment the spirit is poured out upon all at the start of the first phase, when Michael stands and Christs visible presence begins, people will wonder what is happening, people will be shocked, people will be astonished, for a time, times and half a time...

Daniel 12:6

New International Version
One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

New Living Translation
One of them asked the man dressed in linen, who was now standing above the river, “How long will it be until these shocking events are over?”

English Standard Version
And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”

After 3.5 years in, people will be drawing conclusions one way or another, after roving about in the scriptures...

Daniel 12:4...Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

Many will mistakenly conclude that the Wild Beast is something its not.
Many will be mislead into thinking that the Wild Beast is God's Kingdom.

Revelation 14:9-11And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,  he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 17:8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.

Those drawing this conclusion will oppose the 'true sons of the kingdom' and will do away with them, completing what was said in Daniel 12:7.

Notice that there are two separate periods mentioned here, 3 and a half times where people will wonder and be astonished and a further period when the holy ones will be dashed to pieces: -

Daniel 12:7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

This period of the dashing to pieces the holy ones is what takes place during the 2nd phase of 1290 days...

By the time this phase ends, none of Christs brothers will be alive here in the flesh, all 144,000 will be in position in the spirit realm, ready to bring an end to the entire system during the final foretold 1335 period.

Matthew 25:31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.


Kind Regards

Kerry Huish

[Kosonen]

This will infuriate USA, and USA has 80 000 troops in the middle east. So we can later expect a lot of war there. But I believe Trump does not want to go to war before the elections. Because that would make his voter base very disappointed. But after the elections it will be an other story. To me it looks much more likely that USA will act as the king of north and fulfill what is said about the king of the north at the end of Daniel 11.

Hi Kosonen,

With your statement above it would seem you've predicted the outcome of the election coming up in the 2020 presidential race.

Have you pondered the persecution that Trump so far has sustained by the democrats? So far it's been a little over 3 years worth and the impeachment is in progress and has a very good possibility of ending at the 3 and 1/2 year mark!

If that were to happen, how would that play into your modern day prophetic prophecies?


Stranger, (Heb 13:2)

I am just avoiding to think about that.

[Kosonen]

I think you will find that Christ's brothers will be done away with along with Babylon the Great during the 2nd phase of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel 12 refers to 3 specific time periods.

1st phase = 1260 days (3.5 times)
2nd phase = 1290 days
3rd phase = 1335 days

Matthew 25:31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Thanks Kerry for your reply. I have contemplated those posibilities in the past. But I came finally to the conclusion that all these periods of a out 3,5 years begin the same day. So I think we have to agree to disagree and hope for the best when all these prophecies get their fulfilment.

Best regards Jan Kosonen

[Kerry Huish]

I think you will find that Christ's brothers will be done away with along with Babylon the Great during the 2nd phase of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel 12 refers to 3 specific time periods.

1st phase = 1260 days (3.5 times)
2nd phase = 1290 days
3rd phase = 1335 days

Matthew 25:31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Thanks Kerry for your reply. I have contemplated those posibilities in the past. But I came finally to the conclusion that all these periods of a out 3,5 years begin the same day. So I think we have to agree to disagree and hope for the best when all these prophecies get their fulfilment.

Best regards Jan Kosonen

Hi Jan

I won't pressure you too much into believing that these times run in sequence as opposed to parallel.
You seem to be on course to working these things out for yourself...

I will add that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of Revelation run concurrently with these revealed periods in Daniel 12.

Times.png (18.11 KiB) Viewed 613 times

The sounding of this 7th and Final Trumpet, that comes after the holy ones have been dashed to pieces, is what Christ's brothers are looking forward to.

(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Just like Jesus, this sure hope will help them endure that which is set before them.

(Hebrews 12:2) as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(Revelation 11:7) When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.

Let me know how your workings out go, from a cumulative point of view...

(Philippians 2:12) . . .keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;

Kind Regards

Kerry

[Kosonen]

Let me know how your workings out go, from a cumulative point of view...

Hi Kerry, thanks for showing interest in my current conclusions. I guess it will not be so very convincing, by I have some great ideas about the 7 trumpets and the 2 witnesses.

In 2010 there happened interesting things that correspond surprisingly to the first trumpet blasts described in Revelation 8.

Actually just before the 7 trumpet blasts Rev 8:5 tells about an earthquake. In 2010 occured a very deadly earthquake, the Haiti Earthquake.

After that happened the first trumpet blow. Hail and fire followed. That is exactly what a volcano does. And accurately after the Haiti Earthquake a significant volcano erupted on Island, that disrupted for a while a lot of flights in Europe. So it was really a significant world event.

After that the second trumpet blow caused "something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea." Rev.8:8. That is very similar to the oilrig in the Mexican gulf in 2010 that cought fire and fell into the sea and the huge enviromental disaster that followed.

After that the trird trumpet blow caused "a great star burning like a lamp fell from heaven". That is very similar to the bright meteor that fell in Russian in 2013. That too was a spectacular worldevent.

So here we have 4 major world events corresponding to the things described in Revelation 8. So I believe that the trumpet blasts have been in the working since 2010. The trumpet blasts 4 and 5 are not so easy to recognize. But I believe I have recognized them.
What the sixth trumpet blow I don't know yet.

So I understand that the 7 trumpet blasts include a relatively long time period. But the 7 bowls of God's anger seem to me to occure during a much shorter time period, similar to the 10 plagues in Egypt.

And the two withesses in Revelation 11 seem to depict two literal persons with divine powers like Moses and Aaron or Elijah and Elisha. The description of the activity of the two witnesses is very specific, and resemble very much those ancient prophets. So I expect as a culmination to this system of things that God will have two literal prophets/witnesses giving an undisputable unstoppable witness to the world.
During their witnessing unfortunately other anointed will be killed in significant numbers. But those two witnesses will have miraculous powers to defend themselves. But then UN, the beast that ascends out of the abyss will be allowed to kill them.

Best regards Jan

[Kerry Huish]

In 2010 there happened interesting things that correspond surprisingly to the first trumpet blasts described in Revelation 8.

Actually just before the 7 trumpet blasts Rev 8:5 tells about an earthquake. In 2010 occured a very deadly earthquake, the Haiti Earthquake.

After that happened the first trumpet blow. Hail and fire followed. That is exactly what a volcano does. And accurately after the Haiti Earthquake a significant volcano erupted on Island, that disrupted for a while a lot of flights in Europe. So it was really a significant world event.

After that the second trumpet blow caused "something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea." Rev.8:8. That is very similar to the oilrig in the Mexican gulf in 2010 that cought fire and fell into the sea and the huge enviromental disaster that followed.

After that the trird trumpet blow caused "a great star burning like a lamp fell from heaven". That is very similar to the bright meteor that fell in Russian in 2013. That too was a spectacular worldevent.

So here we have 4 major world events corresponding to the things described in Revelation 8. So I believe that the trumpet blasts have been in the working since 2010. The trumpet blasts 4 and 5 are not so easy to recognize. But I believe I have recognized them.
What the sixth trumpet blow I don't know yet.

So I understand that the 7 trumpet blasts include a relatively long time period. But the 7 bowls of God's anger seem to me to occure during a much shorter time period, similar to the 10 plagues in Egypt.

Hi Jan,

The '7 Trumpets' can only start to occur after ALL of Christ's brothers have been sealed.

This is made clear to us by closely considering Revelation 7.

There, angels - who have the power and authority to harm - are told not to harm the symbolic sea, earth or trees, they are seen as holding back symbolic 'winds' until after ALL 144,000 have been identified.

Revelation 7:1-3 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.

Once the last of these 'brothers' are sealed, these symbolic 'winds' are released, resulting in a Great Tribulation, out of which comes a great crowd: -

Revelation 7:14...“These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How do we know we have not yet entered into this moment?

These winds are symbolic and represent God's Spirit.

Soon this spirit will be poured out into the whole earth, resulting in a spiritual awakening, as foretold in Daniel 12, in connection with the time of great distress resulting from Michael standing: -

Daniel 12:1, 2 “And during that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.

This pouring of spirit was also foretold by the prophet Joel: -

Joel 2:28-32 “And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see.  And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit. “And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.  The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.  And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.

Since Pentecost 33CE these verses from Joel have had a minor application, a foregleam, upon a few here and a few there, until ALL 144,000 have been identified.

Yes, there have been many called, or spirit anointed...

Matthew 22:14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”

Many mistakenly associate being called or spirit anointed with being chosen as one of Christ's brothers, they conclude they are one and the same, but they are most certainly not.

Once the last of these 144,000 has been chosen, then the spirit will become operative upon ALL, resulting in a global judgment, or as Daniel 12 puts it, some being blessed others being cursed: -

Daniel 12:2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.

This time parallels Jesus account of the sheep and goats: -

Matthew 25:31-33 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Note that the scriptures talk about those - the few here and a few there - who have already received of the spirit, it says they have 'tasted' the powers of the coming system, these ones know what is coming and what is to be expected, because they have experienced it: -

Hebrews 6:4, 5 For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit,  and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,

These 'winds' have NOT yet been unleashed upon ALL.
It would spell the time of the end, if they had.
It would mean the whole earth being forced to recognise and 'see' the Christ: -

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

This also means that there still remain some who are yet to be sealed as Christ's brothers, there are still some seats left, the door is not yet closed...

Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,

A trumpet cannot make a sound unless there is 'wind' to blow it.

Again, Revelation 7 says 'winds' are being held back: -

Further, upon the blowing of the first trumpet, a third of the earth and a third of the trees are harmed.

Remember, Revelation 7 says that the earth and trees are being prevented from harm, until ALL 144,000 have been accounted for.

Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet. And there occurred a hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up.

For a trumpet to sound, you need wind...
No wind = no trumpet sound.
The wind comes after the 144,000 are sealed.

Thus the trumpets and their sounding is yet future.

Kind Regards

Kerry

[Kosonen]

The '7 Trumpets' can only start to occur after ALL of Christ's brothers have been sealed.
This is made clear to us by closely considering Revelation 7.

Hi Kerry,
The book of Revelation consists of several visions about the end time. That means that the time line is not linear throughout the book. The first vision about events in the end time is chapter 6 and 7 and it concludes with the end of this system of things and the salvation of a great crowd of righteous people.

After that comes a new vision and it is not a continuation to the previous vision. Instead it is a more detailed vision about the end times. This vision of the end times begins in chapter 8 and concludes in chapter 11.

Then again a new vision comes and it takes us again back in time and ends with the end of this system of things. It begins in chapter 12 and ends in chapter 16.

After that chapters 17 and 18 explain in detail what Babylon the Great is and how it will be destroyed. Because Revelarion 14 and 16 just shortly mentioned its falling and destruction.

And chapter 19 tells what will happen shortly after Babylon the Great is destroyed.

I hope you will be able to sort it out. I must admit that it has not been easy for me either to understand these different secuences in the Revelation book and it took me 2 years of study before I fully understood what and who are represented by Babylon the Great. And still I have some questions about events around Armageddon. Among them what is the fall of Babylon and when exactly is it destroyed?

Your brother Jan