Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

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Kerry Huish
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Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#31 Post by Kerry Huish » 8 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
1 year ago
Kosonen wrote:
1 year ago

Daniel 8:25 "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things."......45 And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

Can we agree that these scriptures are about the same "king"? The time period is the same, and the character of the king/horn is essentially the same, arrogant, exalting himself, speaking against God and Prince of Princes, Jesus Christ.
I cannot agree that these scriptures are talking about the same King.

Dan 8:25 is talking about the King of the South.
This can be seen from an examination of the context, particularly Dan 8:9

Dan 11:36 is talking about the King of the North.
This can be seen from an examination of the context, particularly the verses leading up to Dan 11:36
After further research and study, I wish to make a retraction and alteration of the above statement.

I clearly see that Dan 8:25 is indeed talking about the King of the North and specifically his exploits.

However, I still maintain that Dan 8:25 & Dan 11:36 & 45 is talking about two very different periods of time and as a result two different Kings of the North.

As far as I can find, it is Jehovah's Witnesses alone that teach Dan 8:25 refers to the King of the South and I no longer agree with this belief.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
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Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#32 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
8 months ago
As far as I can find, it is Jehovah's Witnesses alone that teach Dan 8:25 refers to the King of the South and I no longer agree with this belief.

If you would have read Dan 8:27 KJV sooner then perhaps they wouldn't have fooled you the first time! Don't feel like the lone ranger though, they have had quite a few agree with it. Even if it is just one belief at the time Kerry, at least you are letting go.



Stranger, (De 29:29)

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#33 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
8 months ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
1 year ago
Kosonen wrote:
1 year ago

Daniel 8:25 "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart, he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things."......45 And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

Can we agree that these scriptures are about the same "king"? The time period is the same, and the character of the king/horn is essentially the same, arrogant, exalting himself, speaking against God and Prince of Princes, Jesus Christ.
After further research and study, I wish to make a retraction and alteration of the above statement.
I clearly see that Dan 8:25 is indeed talking about the King of the North and specifically his exploits.
However, I still maintain that Dan 8:25 & Dan 11:36 & 45 is talking about two very different periods of time and as a result two different Kings of the North
As far as I can find, it is Jehovah's Witnesses alone that teach Dan 8:25 refers to the King of the South and I no longer agree with this belief.
Kind Regards
Kerry
Hello Kerry,
For some reason, I was thinking about the holy mountain of decoration (Dan 11:45) this morning and checked to see if there were any posts on this subject. In the post above. Konsonen says:
Can we agree that these scriptures are about the same "king"? The time period is the same, and the character of the king/horn is essentially the same, arrogant, exalting himself, speaking against God and Prince of Princes, Jesus Christ.
And you say:
However, I still maintain that Dan 8:25 & Dan 11:36 & 45 are talking about two very different periods of time and as a result two different Kings of the North.
.

I agree with you that it is talking about two different kings, but they exist simultaneously in the time of the end. However, one of the two is unseen and has been a clandestine entity that has enabled kings for more than two thousand years.

This unseen clandestine entity had its beginning in Jerusalem as an insignificant little horn, ( Dan 8:9). It emerged after the stump of Nebuchadnezzar's tree was banded with copper and iron, signifying the Greek and Roman mindset that would govern kings from that time forward (Dan 2:39,40; 4:15,15)

Alexander 1, of Macedon [Greece], known with the title Philhellene was the ruler of the ancient kingdom of Macedon from c. 498 BC until his death in 454 BC...Alexander 1 came to the throne during the era of the kingdom's vassalage to Achaemenid Persia, dating back to the time of his father, Amyntas 1, although Macedon retained a broad scope of autonomy.[3] In 492 BC it, [Macedon/Greece], was made a fully subordinate part of the Persian Empire.... At that time the Greek mindset and their philosophy began to influence the intelligentsia of the then civilized world, namely the Persian empire.

The Scribe Ezra 480–440 BCE

The Emendations of the Sopherim ...Ezra came up from Babylon; and he was a skilled scribe in the Law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given.... "... Ezra the priest, the scribe, expert in the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of His statutes to Israel."(Ezra 7:6,11) Ezra was the first in a long line of Sopherim (Scribes) who were given the task of refining the scriptures
This next link gives an alternative view concerning The 134 Emendations of the Sopherim ... A Most Closely-Kept Secret ...those scribes whose responsibility it was to preserve the Hebrew Texts of Scripture, took it upon themselves to make changes to the original texts, in order to edit out those few places which posed a disturbing counter-challenge to their understanding of God’s personal existence. By that time, the traditional Jewish religion was firmly set in the belief in not just one God, but that the One God was a single individual only. When they encountered long-established texts which posed difficult questions, the traditional views were held onto, and thus, those non-conforming texts were altered! ... those custodians of the Original Hebrew Texts, the Sopherim, having changed the wording found in those texts, clearly intentionally. The result lending support to that traditional Judaic Monotheistic-Unitarian view well-known today, that God is just ONE single Being only....

Jews at that time were well aware that in the original text the creator, Jehovah Elohim/Jehovah Gods was a plurality of Gods that worked in unity as one. That is what the original text said. As this little horn's influence grew, it made its impact felt toward the south(Dan 8:9).
Wikipedia
...Egyptian Jews constitute both one of the oldest and youngest Jewish communities in the world. The historic core of the Jewish community
And toward the sun rising [east].
Babylonian Jewish Community ...There was a group of Jews who never left Babylonia after the Babylonian Exile... This community more or less thrived...The community which they headed was both numerous (estimates of its number vary from 800,000 to 1,200,000) and well-based economically.

And toward the Decoration. Since the little horn, was based in Jerusalem the Decoration must refer to a place further afield. At Dan 11:45 it refers to a place called the holy mountain of Decoration, at a guess the only place I can think of that would fit such a depiction would be Mount Sinai, where Jehovah spoke to Moses face to face. But that is only a guess at this stage.

It says concerning this little horn that it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth. This would refer to the Aaronic priesthood who one after the other applied the changes of the Sopherim in their liturgy as they performed their duties... And all the way to the prince of the army they put on great airs... and from him, the constant feature was taken away...and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. (Dan 8:11). They had supplanted his distinctive name, Jehovah. In doing this they replaced the Jehovah Elohim/Gods, with an unseen entity whom they addressed as Lord.

From this point onward at Dan 8, this heavenly army of Dan 8:10,11 is referred to as a she ... And an army, [fem], she is given over/against the constant feature according to transgression, and she [fem. army], keeps throwing truth to the earth and she accomplished this and prospered... (Dan 8:12).

The 2300 evenings and mornings (Dan 8:14,26), refers to the annual Passover celebration , which was desecrated at that time. For an in-depth discussion on this see post 7, here, and post 153, here

In the video featured in post 292, here , Ronald Bernard reveals what this unseen entity is, starting from around 20:23 on the video time-line, (Isa 14:12). This unseen clandestine entity, via its human proxies, has enabled kings for more than two millennia.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#34 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
6 months ago

In the video featured in post 292, here , Ronald Bernard reveals what this unseen entity is, starting from around 20:23 on the video time-line, (Isa 14:12). This unseen clandestine entity, via its human proxies, has enabled kings for more than two millennia.
For those who do not know how the New KJV renders Isa 14:12, here it is ...How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
... .
LRW~

Kerry Huish
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Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#35 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

In reviewing this thread a few months on, I still maintain that Daniel 8:25 and Daniel 11:36 & Daniel 11:45 are not talking about the same time period.

My belief is that Daniel 8 and its fulfilment centers around Jesus.

Here is how I currently see it...

Daniel 8:20-22 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king. As for the horn that was broken, so that four stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.

History testifies that Greece did in fact conquer Media-Persia in 331 BCE and that Alexander the Great died suddenly in 323 BCE with his kingdom being divided up amongst 4 of his generals: -

Daniel 8:8 Then the male goat exalted itself exceedingly, but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken; then four conspicuous horns came up instead of the one, toward the four winds of the heavens.

These 4 generals battled each other until there was but a clear two remaining, a King who ruled over the lands North of Israel (Syria) and a King who ruled over the lands South of Israel (Egypt).
The King who ruled the lands North of Israel proved superior.

During the last days of these kings, another ruler emerged onto the scene and took control, this ruler was Rome.

Daniel 8:9-12 Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.

The reasons for why I believe that this is talking about Rome is as follows.

Antiochus III (The King of the North) lost a decisive battle to Rome in 190 BCE (the battle of Magnesia) he had to give up everything in Greece, Asia Minor, and in areas west of the Taurus Mountains. Rome exacted a heavy fine and established its domination over the Syrian King of the North. After this, Antiochus III and the Seleucid dynasty became a 'mere King in the North' whereas Rome had transcended to being the actual King of the North.

Syria finally became a Roman province in 64 BCE. Rome conquered Israel – or the land of decoration – in 63 BCE and conquered Egypt or the South in 30 BCE.

Romes exploits, from small beginnings, continue.

Daniel 8:10 It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

This causing of some of the Army and some of the Stars to fall seems be a reference to the many sons of Israel that were killed when Herod was trying to exterminate the future King of Israel. The Herod’s were a dynasty that ruled over the Jews by appointment from Rome: -

Matthew 2:16-18 Then Herod, seeing that he had been outwitted by the astrologers, flew into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Bethʹle·hem and in all its districts killed, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers. Then was fulfilled what was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, who said: “A voice was heard in Raʹmah, weeping and much wailing. It was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more.”

Yes, some of the Army (Israel) and even some of the Sons of Judah (Stars) were made to fall to the Earth because of Herod. But Jesus, the true Son of God, the true Prince of the Army initially escaped this slaughter: -

Matthew 2:13 After they had departed, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying: “Get up, take the young child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I give you word, for Herod is about to search for the young child to kill him.” So Joseph got up and by night took along the young child and the child’s mother and went into Egypt. He stayed there until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Later, Rome would exalt over the Prince of the Army and be instrumental in his death and in removing the Constant Feature: -

Daniel 8:11 It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.

This is also alluded to in Daniel 8:25, as is a bold statement that the King would not be broken or conquered by a human hand: -

Daniel 8:25 And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Rome was never conquered by another nation.

Regarding Rome’s role in exalting itself even against the Prince of the Army, taking away the Constant Feature and throwing down the established place of his sanctuary, we must consider what sanctuary we are talking about.
When Jesus was on Earth and from the time he was anointed with Jehovah’s spirit in 29 CE his body was a temple or sanctuary: -

John 2:19-21 Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was talking about the temple of his body.

Jesus, the Prince of the Army and the true temple sanctuary, was executed or thrown down at the hands of Rome on Nisan 14 33 CE – this is indisputable.

Also, regarding the use of 'cunning and deception' mentioned in Dan 8:25: -

Daniel 8:25 And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

This parallels Daniel 11:21, 22: -

Daniel 11:21, 22 “He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed.

This is talking about Tiberius Caesar, a man who was contemptible, under his hand the 'Prince of the Covenant' was broken - see history of how Tiberius came to be Caesar.

Tiberius gained control in a very clever way. Due to the circumstances, he was a forced choice as heir due to the deaths of Lucius and Gaius. He never received the kind of honor that Augustus had achieved.

The ruler prior to Tiberius was Augustus. It was Augustus that causes a census to occur, which resulted in Jesus being born in Bethlehem.

Daniel 11:20 "His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. In a few years, however, he will be destroyed, yet not in anger or in battle.

Luke 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.

Did Augustus die a few years after this, not in anger or battle?

WIKI:-
Caesar Augustus (23 September 63 BC – 19 August AD 14)
On 19 August AD 14, Augustus died while visiting Nola where his father had died. Both Tacitus and Cassius Dio wrote that Livia was rumored to have brought about Augustus's death by poisoning fresh figs.[211][212] This element features in many modern works of historical fiction pertaining to Augustus's life, but some historians view it as likely to have been a salacious fabrication made by those who had favoured Postumus as heir, or other of Tiberius's political enemies. Livia had long been the target of similar rumors of poisoning on the behalf of her son, most or all of which are unlikely to have been true.[213]

This is why I cannot accept that Daniel 8:25 and Daniel 11:36 & Daniel 11:45 are talking about the same time period.

This marks a slight change in my understanding that was previously presented here: -

viewtopic.php?p=47483#p47483

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#36 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

Opening thread revised in accordance with current understanding...
_______

Before we start...

The Kings of the North and Kings of the South are understood as being the ones controlling the lands both North (Syria) and South (Egypt) of Israel.

I mostly agree with what the ‘Pay Attention To Daniels Prophecy Book’ published by Jehovah’s Witnesses says regarding Daniel Chapter 11.
Details can be found there regarding the Triple Alliance and the Triple Entente, WW1, the ships of Kittim, WW2 and the setting up of the United Nations etc.

However, I do have issues with what it says with regards Daniel 11:34 & 35 and from verse 40 onwards and Daniel 12.

Verse 34 talks about an apostasy that would begin to set in amongst Gods people after World War II and after the U.N. had been put in place.

(Daniel 11:34) But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.

This apostasy is downplayed greatly in the literature; it agrees that there was a problem but it also says that this problem was resolved. It also uses misdirection by having the reader associate this apostasy with the intrusion of the King of the North.

*** dp chap. 16 pp. 274-275 pars. 8-10 The Contending Kings Near Their End ***
8 Not all who professed to have an interest in serving God during the Cold War years had good motives. The angel had warned: “Many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness.” (Daniel 11:34b) A considerable number showed an interest in the truth but were not willing to make a dedication to God. Yet others who seemed to accept the good news were really spies for the authorities. A report from one land reads: “Some of these unscrupulous characters were avowed Communists who had crept into the Lord’s organization, made a great display of zeal, and had even been appointed to high positions of service.”
9 The angel continued: “And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.” (Daniel 11:35) The infiltrators caused some faithful ones to fall into the hands of the authorities. Jehovah allowed such things to happen for a refining and a cleansing of his people. Just as Jesus “learned obedience from the things he suffered,” so these faithful ones learned endurance from the testing of their faith. (Hebrews 5:8; James 1:2, 3; compare Malachi 3:3.) They are thus ‘refined, cleansed, and whitened.’
10 Jehovah’s people were to experience stumbling and refining “until the time of the end.” Of course, they expect to be persecuted until the end of this wicked system of things. However, the cleansing and whitening of God’s people as a result of the intrusion from the king of the north was “for the time appointed.” Hence, at Daniel 11:35, “the time of the end” must relate to the end of the period of time needed for God’s people to be refined while enduring the assault of the king of the north. The stumbling evidently ended at the time appointed by Jehovah.

_______

But this is not what the Angel said; he said that these impostors would be allowed to cause problems amongst Gods people right up until the time of the end. ‘Because of them’ that is because of these impostors, true Christians would be made to stumble and be refined right up until the time of the end.

(Daniel 11:35) And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Jesus also referred to a similar time of endurance: -

(Matthew 13:27-30) So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

These ones who were foretold to join with Jehovah’s people by means of smooth speech and the antics of the King of the North and King of the South are separate stories. The Angel that was speaking with Daniel was highlighting a development that would occur as we approach the time of the end. This development was an apostasy and it would get worse, not better…

Maybe Paul had in mind this prophetic account when he said: -

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?

Today, this man of lawlessness, this foretold apostasy has manifested itself as being the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Yes, there was also a foretold cold war that took place after WW2, this also is revealed in Daniel 11:36-39

(Daniel 11:36-39) “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone. But instead he will give glory to the god of fortresses; to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and silver and precious stones and desirable things. He will act effectively against the most fortified strongholds, along with a foreign god. He will give great glory to those who give him recognition, and he will make them rule among many; and the ground he will apportion out for a price. This foreign god, I believe refers to the acquisition of nuclear power a power or god that our forefathers never new.

Now the continuance of Daniel 11:40-43, that according to the timeline in Daniel, would occur or continue 'after' this cold war saga that followed WW2.

The cold war ended in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

Regarding verse 40 onwards…

(Daniel 11:40-43) “And in the time of [the] end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through. He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps.

The organization makes application of these words from 1914 onwards, basically, they say the Angel was just repeating himself or reiterating what was previously said: -

*** dp chap. 16 pp. 276-278 The Contending Kings Near Their End ***
“A PUSHING” IN THE TIME OF THE END
15 “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing,” the angel told Daniel. (Daniel 11:40a) Has the king of the south ‘pushed’ the king of the north during “the time of the end”? (Daniel 12:4, 9) Yes, indeed. After the first world war, the punitive peace treaty imposed upon the then king of the north—Germany—was surely “a pushing,” an incitement to retaliation. After his victory in the second world war, the king of the south targeted fearsome nuclear weapons on his rival and organized against him a powerful military alliance, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Concerning NATO’s function, a British historian says: “It was the prime instrument for the ‘containment’ of the USSR, which was now perceived as the principal threat to European peace. Its mission lasted for 40 years, and was carried out with indisputable success.” As the years of the Cold War went by, the “pushing” by the king of the south included high-tech espionage as well as diplomatic and military offensives.
16 How did the king of the north react? “Against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through.” (Daniel 11:40b) The history of the last days has featured the expansionism of the king of the north. During the second world war, the Nazi “king” flooded over his borders into the surrounding lands. At the end of that war, the successor “king” built a powerful empire. During the Cold War, the king of the north fought his rival in proxy wars and insurgencies in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. He persecuted genuine Christians, hindering—but by no means stopping—their activity. And his military and political offensives brought a number of lands under his control. This is exactly what the angel had prophesied: “He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration [the spiritual estate of Jehovah’s people], and there will be many lands that will be made to stumble.”—Daniel 11:41a.
17 Nevertheless, the king of the north did not achieve world conquest. The angel foretold: “These are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Edom and Moab and the main part of the sons of Ammon.” (Daniel 11:41b) In ancient times, Edom, Moab, and Ammon were situated between the domains of the Egyptian king of the south and the Syrian king of the north. In modern times they represent nations and organizations that the king of the north targeted but was unable to bring under his influence.


_______

But, was the Angel repeating himself?

This was not something that the Angel did; only if Daniel asked for more information was more information given.

An example of this happening is here: -

(Daniel 7:19-26) “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet; and about the ten horns on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others. “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely.

When Daniel asked for more information in relation to the King of the North and King of the South revelation, this was the response: -

(Daniel 12:8, 9) Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.

There was not even an attempt of re-explaining or putting things in another way to impart understanding to Daniel in regards this matter.
The information was not for Daniel, so why would the Angel try and explain things further by a reiteration?

I do not believe that this was a reiteration but rather a continuance.

The time of the end did not start in 1914 as the org teaches.

This can be clearly seen from examining Daniel 11:27 and Daniel 11:35.

Daniel 11:27 is what happened in 1914.
Daniel 11:35 is what happened after 1945.

Both these verses refer to the 'time of the end' as being something yet future.

(Daniel 11:27) “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed,
because the end is yet for the time appointed.

(Daniel 11:35) And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Yet the org says that this time of the end started in 1914???

This is because they have ‘continually’ tried to 'shoehorn' the words of Daniel 11:41-43 into a 1914 setting, implying that the time of the end started in 1914: -

*** g 4/08 p. 6 The Last Days—When? ***
When Would “the Time of the End” Start?
After he received a preview of events that would occur far in the future, the prophet Daniel was told: “During that time [“the time of the end” mentioned at Daniel 11:40] Michael
[Jesus Christ] will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.” (Daniel 12:1) What would Michael do?
The book of Revelation speaks of the time when Michael would be active as King. It states: “War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”— Revelation 12:7-9, 12.

Bible chronology indicates that this battle, cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons, would result in great woe for the earth because of the Devil’s anger at knowing that his time left for ruling the earth was short. His anger would increase during the last days until his total defeat at the war of Armageddon.—Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11, 15; 20:1-3.
After mentioning the outcome of that heavenly battle, the apostle John declared: “I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!’” (Revelation 12:10) Did you note the announcement of the Kingdom’s establishment under Christ? Yes, that heavenly Kingdom was installed in 1914. However, as Psalm 110:2 indicates, Jesus would be ruling “in the midst of [his] enemies” until the time when Kingdom rule would exercise dominion over the earth as it has done in heaven.—Matthew 6:10.
Interestingly, the angel who told the prophet Daniel of the events to come also stated: “As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4) This provides additional evidence that we are now in “the time of the end.”
Knowledge of the meaning of these prophecies has already been made clear and is now being proclaimed worldwide.

*** it-2 p. 1103 Time of the End ***
The expression “time of the end” is also used in association with particular developments in connection with human government. Daniel 11:40 reads: “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with [the king of the north] in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships.”
Thereafter the prophecy discusses the actions of the “king of the north” and indicates that he will come to his end. (Da 11:41-45) Thus “the time of the end” here is evidently to be understood as a period culminated by the destruction of “the king of the north.” Lending confirmation to this is the fact that “the king of the north” is earlier portrayed as persecuting God’s servants, those “having insight,” until “the time of the end,” that is, until his time of the end.—Da 11:33-35.

*** w84 11/15 pp. 23-24 “The Time Left Is Reduced” ***
Deep in “the Time of the End”
9 Jesus Christ foretold that during his invisible presence people would be preoccupied with the affairs of life. They would be distracted, as people were in the days of Noah and of Lot. “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed,” said Jesus, referring to the time of his invisible presence, when destruction would be executed upon this wicked system.—Luke 17:26-30.
10 Consider also the prophecies recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Jesus foretold things utterly beyond the control of man—such things as pestilences and great earthquakes. Moreover, there has been an “increasing of lawlessness” since 1914. Today’s news, particularly in big cities, often is nothing more than a chronicle of crime and corruption. There is more to this than rising crime statistics, for a spirit of disregard for legal restraints now prevails, and the love of the greater number definitely is cooling off.— Matthew 24:12.
11 Moreover, “anguish of nations” now is evident because men do not know the way out of their multiplying difficulties. (Luke 21:25, 26) Then, too, there has been a dwindling in the number of those of “this generation” of 1914, which is not to pass away before the fulfillment of all that Jesus foretold for our time. (Matthew 24:34) This is another clear indication that this system’s end is near.
12 Much additional evidence could be presented to prove that we are deep in “the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:4) But no doubt the greatest proof that we are near the end of this system is the worldwide Kingdom-preaching work being done by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Never before has such a thing occurred. Indeed, in 205 lands around the globe more than 2,650,000 witnesses of Jehovah are zealously doing the fine work of spreading the heartening message that Christ has been ruling in Kingdom power since 1914. And Jesus declared that when this good news of the Kingdom has been preached in all the inhabited earth, then “the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.


_______

This 'shoehorning' can be further seen from the way they have translated Daniel 11:40: -

(Daniel 11:40) “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing,. . .
The way they have translated this indicates that it is after the time of the end starts that this pushing takes place.

But the translation is incorrect.
It should read: -

(Daniel 11:40) “At the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing…
Rendering in other translations: -

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-40.htm

New International Version
"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

New Living Translation
“Then at the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the king of the north. The king of the north will storm out with chariots, charioteers, and a vast navy. He will invade various lands and sweep through them like a flood.

English Standard Version
At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.

Borean Study Bible
At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships, invading many countries and sweeping through them like a flood.

New American Standard Bible
"At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through.

King James Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Christian Standard Bible
"At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood.

Contemporary English Version
At the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the kingdom of the north. But its king will rush out like a storm with war chariots, cavalry, and many ships. Indeed, his forces will flood one country after another,

Good News Translation
"When the king of Syria's final hour has almost come, the king of Egypt will attack him, and the king of Syria will fight back with all his power, using chariots, horses, and many ships. He will invade many countries, like the waters of a flood.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood.

International Standard Version
"'At the time of the end, the southern king will oppose him, and the northern king will overrun him with chariots, cavalry, and many ships. He'll invade countries, moving swiftly and sweeping through.

NET Bible
"At the time of the end the king of the south will attack him. Then the king of the north will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and a large armada of ships. He will invade lands, passing through them like an overflowing river.

New Heart English Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south attack him. And the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall invade countries, and pass through like a flood.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow, as he passes through.

New American Standard 1977
“And at the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them, and pass through.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But at the end of the time the king of the south shall lock horns with him, and the king of the north shall raise up a storm against him with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships, and he shall enter into the lands and shall overflow and pass over.

King James 2000 Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south attack him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

American King James Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

American Standard Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
And at the end of the time he shall conflict with the king of the south: and the king of the north shall come against him with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and they shall enter into the land: and he shall break in pieces, and pass on:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And at the time prefixed the king of the south shall fight against him, and the king of the north shall come against him like a tempest, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with a great navy, and he shall enter into the countries, and shall destroy, and pass through.

Darby Bible Translation
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and overflow and pass through.

English Revised Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Webster's Bible Translation
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

World English Bible
At the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Young's Literal Translation
'And at the time of the end, push himself forward with him doth a king of the south, and storm against him doth a king of the north, with chariot, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he hath come in to the lands, and hath overflowed, and passed over,

There is just one other translation that renders the text as ‘In’

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"In the end times the southern king will attack him. The northern king will rush at him like a storm with chariots, horses, and many ships. He will invade countries, overwhelm them, and pass through their land.

Actual Interlinear: -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/11-40.htm
nt.png
nt.png (158.04 KiB) Viewed 148 times
Does it really matter if it’s 'In' or 'At'?

Yes...

At the time of the end can encompass the moments just before and leading up to the time when the end starts.
In the time of the end encompass the moment after the end had started.

In this matter the organization has been misleading. The time of the end starts when the Great Tribulation starts, when Michael stands up according to Daniel chapter 12. What happens between the Kings of the North and South in Daniel 11 occurs BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts.

Yes, I believe that the last days of this system started when Jesus became King around 1914 and Satan was evicted from heaven.

The last days, the time of the end, the conclusion of the system of things and the harvest have all been merged together by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Despite this misleading and in considering Daniel 11:40-43 as being a continuance rather than a reiteration, I have to wonder if the events we now behold are all linked.

(Daniel 11:40-43) “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood. He will also enter into the land of the Decoration, and many lands will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand: Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the Amʹmon·ites. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not escape. And he will rule over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps.

Yes, we have witnessed a great pushing and shoving in recent times. The result of this pushing – according to the angel in Daniel 11 – is that the King of the North will react, push back and push back hard. He even goes as far as to gain mastery over the King of the South, ruling over Egypt.

So who is going to be this King of the North...?

Russia, China, Iran, North Korea or someone else?

The King of the South is pushing the whole region in one way or another. What is looked for in order to clearly identify the King of the North is the push back and the further foretold invasion of Israel.

(Daniel 11:41) He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon.

This Land of the Decoration refers to the land of Israel.

(Ezekiel 20:6) In that day I swore that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt to a land that I had searched out for them, one flowing with milk and honey. It was the most beautiful of all the lands.

It was not until 1948 that Israel gained state recognition and became a modern day restored land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The USA has already tried to 'curry favor' with Israel by moving its embassy to Jerusalem, publicly recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
Israel is strategic and a very important ally to the west, the loss of relations would be disastrous.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-mid ... -jerusalem https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42246564

After the King of the North pushes back and enters Israel - what next?

(Daniel 11:42, 43) And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy•ans and the E•thi•oʹpi•ans will be at his steps.

Yes, the prophecy foretells some very bad times ahead...

It mentions Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon - historical enemies of Israel that no longer exist as nations today. These are symbolic of modern day enemies of Israel that join with and work with this invading King.

Once this invasion has been completed, Michael then stands up resulting in the start of the Great Tribulation which disturbs this campaign that the North has been on.

(Daniel 11:44, 45) “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

(Daniel 12:1) “During that time Miʹcha•el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.

In fact, it is Michael standing that halts or disturbs the King of the North in doing what he is doing. It is this event that will force both Kings to work together in their opposition of the Messianic Kingdom.

(Isaiah 2:4) He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

(Psalm 46:9) He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.

(1 Thessalonians 5:3) Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

(Revelation 19:19) And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.

Yes, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that a cry of peace and security will occur before the Great Tribulation begins. However, they do not know who the THEY are that declare such...

Both the Kings of the North and South have been at war since their creation, trying to gain mastery over each other.

However, the prophesy in Daniel paints no picture of such a peace between these two Kings ever occurring before Michael stands. Again, remember what the Angel said regarding their arrangement of sitting at one table and when exactly this would succeed: -

(Daniel 11:27) “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed.

Yes, prior to WW1 both Kings were giving the impression of being at peace with each other, but it was a lie. According to the Angel, in the time of the end, this lie or peace would succeed, at the time appointed.

So in conclusion and where we are at...

I firmly believe we are seeing the initial fulfillment of Daniel 11:40 happening before our very eyes.

May we all endeavor to put right the things that need putting right in order to be found standing and enduring (as opposed to failing & falling) before the Son of Man.

(Matthew 7:24-27) “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

(Luke 21:36) Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

Kind Regards

Kerry Huish
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
Posts: 2233
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#37 Post by Stranger » 3 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
3 weeks ago
Opening thread revised in accordance with current understanding...
_______

That was a long post Kerry, thank you for your current understanding. Check back in within 180 to 1277.5 days to notify if anything has changed again.


Stranger, (Dan 11:35)

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#38 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

For anyone interested in an in depth analysis that you uses linguistic, literary, and intertextual procedures regarding Dan 8:9-14 then there is a very interesting read found here: -

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/dissertations/132/

Some have conclude that the "Out of one of them" statement found in Dan 8:9 is said in relation to the 4 winds, not the 4 horns.

This has further aided me in the conclusion that the small horn of Daniel 8 was indeed Rome.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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