Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

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Kerry Huish
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Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#1 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 year ago

Before we start...

The Kings of the North and Kings of the South are understood as being the ones controlling the lands both North (Syria) and South (Egypt) of Israel.

I mostly agree with what the ‘Pay Attention To Daniels Prophecy Book’ published by Jehovah’s Witnesses says regarding Daniel Chapter 11.
Details can be found there regarding the Triple Alliance and the Triple Entente, WW1, the ships of Kittim, WW2 and the setting up of the United Nations etc.

However, I do have issues with what it says with regards verse 34 & 35 and from verse 40 onwards and Daniel 12.

Verse 34 talks about an apostasy that would begin to set in amongst Gods people after World War II and after the U.N. had been put in place.

(Daniel 11:34) But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.

This apostasy is downplayed greatly in the literature; it agrees that there was a problem but it also says that this problem was resolved.
It also uses misdirection by having the reader associate this apostasy with the intrusion of the King of the North.

*** dp chap. 16 pp. 274-275 pars. 8-10 The Contending Kings Near Their End ***
8 Not all who professed to have an interest in serving God during the Cold War years had good motives. The angel had warned: “Many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness.” (Daniel 11:34b) A considerable number showed an interest in the truth but were not willing to make a dedication to God. Yet others who seemed to accept the good news were really spies for the authorities. A report from one land reads: “Some of these unscrupulous characters were avowed Communists who had crept into the Lord’s organization, made a great display of zeal, and had even been appointed to high positions of service.”
9 The angel continued: “And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.” (Daniel 11:35) The infiltrators caused some faithful ones to fall into the hands of the authorities. Jehovah allowed such things to happen for a refining and a cleansing of his people. Just as Jesus “learned obedience from the things he suffered,” so these faithful ones learned endurance from the testing of their faith. (Hebrews 5:8; James 1:2, 3; compare Malachi 3:3.) They are thus ‘refined, cleansed, and whitened.’
10 Jehovah’s people were to experience stumbling and refining “until the time of the end.” Of course, they expect to be persecuted until the end of this wicked system of things. However, the cleansing and whitening of God’s people as a result of the intrusion from the king of the north was “for the time appointed.” Hence, at Daniel 11:35, “the time of the end” must relate to the end of the period of time needed for God’s people to be refined while enduring the assault of the king of the north. The stumbling evidently ended at the time appointed by Jehovah.

But this is not what the Angel said; he said that these impostors would be allowed to cause problems amongst Gods people right up until the time of the end.
‘Because of them’ that is because of these impostors, true Christians would be made to stumble and be refined right up until the time of the end.

(Daniel 11:35) And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Jesus also referred to a similar time of endurance: -

(Matthew 13:27-30) So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

These ones who were foretold to join with Jehovah’s people by means of smooth speech and the antics of the King of the North and King of the South are separate stories.
The Angel that was speaking with Daniel was highlighting a development that would occur as we approach the time of the end.
This development was an apostasy and it would get worse, not better…

Maybe Paul had in mind this prophetic account when he said: -

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?

Today, this man of lawlessness, this foretold apostasy has manifested itself as being the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Yes, there was also a foretold cold war that took place after WW2, this also is revealed in Daniel 11:36-39

(Daniel 11:36-39) “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone. But instead he will give glory to the god of fortresses; to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and silver and precious stones and desirable things. He will act effectively against the most fortified strongholds, along with a foreign god. He will give great glory to those who give him recognition, and he will make them rule among many; and the ground he will apportion out for a price. This foreign god, I believe refers to the acquisition of nuclear power a power or god that our forefathers never new.

Now the continuance of Daniel 11:40-43, that according to the timeline in Daniel, would occur or continue 'after' this cold war saga that followed WW2.

The cold war ended in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

Regarding verse 40 onwards…

(Daniel 11:40-43) “And in the time of [the] end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through. He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps.

The organization makes application of these words from 1914 onwards, basically, they say the Angel was just repeating himself or reiterating what was previously said: -

*** dp chap. 16 pp. 276-278 The Contending Kings Near Their End ***
“A PUSHING” IN THE TIME OF THE END
15 “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing,” the angel told Daniel. (Daniel 11:40a) Has the king of the south ‘pushed’ the king of the north during “the time of the end”? (Daniel 12:4, 9) Yes, indeed. After the first world war, the punitive peace treaty imposed upon the then king of the north—Germany—was surely “a pushing,” an incitement to retaliation. After his victory in the second world war, the king of the south targeted fearsome nuclear weapons on his rival and organized against him a powerful military alliance, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Concerning NATO’s function, a British historian says: “It was the prime instrument for the ‘containment’ of the USSR, which was now perceived as the principal threat to European peace. Its mission lasted for 40 years, and was carried out with indisputable success.” As the years of the Cold War went by, the “pushing” by the king of the south included high-tech espionage as well as diplomatic and military offensives.
16 How did the king of the north react? “Against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through.” (Daniel 11:40b) The history of the last days has featured the expansionism of the king of the north. During the second world war, the Nazi “king” flooded over his borders into the surrounding lands. At the end of that war, the successor “king” built a powerful empire. During the Cold War, the king of the north fought his rival in proxy wars and insurgencies in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. He persecuted genuine Christians, hindering—but by no means stopping—their activity. And his military and political offensives brought a number of lands under his control. This is exactly what the angel had prophesied: “He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration [the spiritual estate of Jehovah’s people], and there will be many lands that will be made to stumble.”—Daniel 11:41a.
17 Nevertheless, the king of the north did not achieve world conquest. The angel foretold: “These are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Edom and Moab and the main part of the sons of Ammon.” (Daniel 11:41b) In ancient times, Edom, Moab, and Ammon were situated between the domains of the Egyptian king of the south and the Syrian king of the north. In modern times they represent nations and organizations that the king of the north targeted but was unable to bring under his influence.

But, was the Angel repeating himself?

This was not something that the Angel did; only if Daniel asked for more information was more information given.

An example of this happening is here: -

(Daniel 7:19-26) “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper
claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet; and about the ten horns on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which
three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others. “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy
ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived
for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be
different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that
kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. He will speak words against the
Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time,
times, and half a time. But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely.

When Daniel asked for more information in relation to the King of the North and King of the South revelation, this was the response: -

(Daniel 12:8, 9) Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the
words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.

There was not even an attempt of re-explaining or putting things in another way to impart understanding to Daniel in regards this matter.
The information was not for Daniel, so why would the Angel try and explain things further by a reiteration?

I do not believe that this was a reiteration but rather a continuance.

The time of the end did not start in 1914 as the org teaches, but the 'last days' leading up to the time of the end did.
This can be clearly seen from examining Daniel 11:27 and Daniel 11:35.

Daniel 11:27 is what happened in 1914.
Daniel 11:35 is what happened after 1945.

Both these verses refer to the 'time of the end' as being something yet future.

(Daniel 11:27) “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed,
because the end is yet for the time appointed.

(Daniel 11:35) And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of
the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Yet the org says that this time of the end started in 1914???

This is because they have ‘continually’ tried to 'shoehorn' the words of Daniel 11:41-43 into a 1914 setting, implying that the time of the end started in 1914: -

*** g 4/08 p. 6 The Last Days—When? ***
When Would “the Time of the End” Start?
After he received a preview of events that would occur far in the future, the prophet Daniel was told: “During that time [“the time of the end” mentioned at Daniel 11:40] Michael
[Jesus Christ] will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.” (Daniel 12:1) What would Michael do?
The book of Revelation speaks of the time when Michael would be active as King. It states: “War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the
dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one
called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. On this account be glad, you
heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”—
Revelation 12:7-9, 12.

Bible chronology indicates that this battle, cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons, would result in great woe for the earth because of the Devil’s anger at knowing that
his time left for ruling the earth was short. His anger would increase during the last days until his total defeat at the war of Armageddon.—Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11, 15; 20:1-3.
After mentioning the outcome of that heavenly battle, the apostle John declared: “I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and
the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!’” (Revelation
12:10) Did you note the announcement of the Kingdom’s establishment under Christ? Yes, that heavenly Kingdom was installed in 1914. However, as Psalm 110:2 indicates,
Jesus would be ruling “in the midst of [his] enemies” until the time when Kingdom rule would exercise dominion over the earth as it has done in heaven.—Matthew 6:10.
Interestingly, the angel who told the prophet Daniel of the events to come also stated: “As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the
end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4) This provides additional evidence that we are now in “the time of the end.”
Knowledge of the meaning of these prophecies has already been made clear and is now being proclaimed worldwide.

*** it-2 p. 1103 Time of the End ***
The expression “time of the end” is also used in association with particular developments in connection with human government. Daniel 11:40 reads: “In the time of the end the
king of the south will engage with [the king of the north] in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships.”
Thereafter the prophecy discusses the actions of the “king of the north” and indicates that he will come to his end. (Da 11:41-45) Thus “the time of the end” here is evidently to
be understood as a period culminated by the destruction of “the king of the north.”
Lending confirmation to this is the fact that “the king of the north” is earlier portrayed as
persecuting God’s servants, those “having insight,” until “the time of the end,” that is, until his time of the end.—Da 11:33-35.

*** w84 11/15 pp. 23-24 “The Time Left Is Reduced” ***
Deep in “the Time of the End”
9 Jesus Christ foretold that during his invisible presence people would be preoccupied with the affairs of life. They would be distracted, as people were in the days of Noah and of
Lot. “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed,” said Jesus, referring to the time of his invisible presence, when destruction would be executed
upon this wicked system.—Luke 17:26-30.
10 Consider also the prophecies recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Jesus foretold things utterly beyond the control of man—such things as pestilences and great
earthquakes. Moreover, there has been an “increasing of lawlessness” since 1914. Today’s news, particularly in big cities, often is nothing more than a chronicle of crime and
corruption. There is more to this than rising crime statistics, for a spirit of disregard for legal restraints now prevails, and the love of the greater number definitely is cooling off.—
Matthew 24:12.
11 Moreover, “anguish of nations” now is evident because men do not know the way out of their multiplying difficulties. (Luke 21:25, 26) Then, too, there has been a dwindling in
the number of those of “this generation” of 1914, which is not to pass away before the fulfillment of all that Jesus foretold for our time. (Matthew 24:34) This is another clear
indication that this system’s end is near.
12 Much additional evidence could be presented to prove that we are deep in “the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:4) But no doubt the greatest proof that we are near the end of this
system is the worldwide Kingdom-preaching work being done by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Never before has such a thing occurred. Indeed, in 205 lands around the globe more than
2,650,000 witnesses of Jehovah are zealously doing the fine work of spreading the heartening message that Christ has been ruling in Kingdom power since 1914. And Jesus
declared that when this good news of the Kingdom has been preached in all the inhabited earth, then “the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.

This 'shoehorning' can be further seen from the way they have translated Daniel 11:40: -

(Daniel 11:40) “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing,. . .
The way they have translated this indicates that it is after the time of the end starts that this pushing takes place.

But the translation is incorrect.
It should read: -

(Daniel 11:40) “At the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing…
Rendering in other translations: -

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-40.htm

New International Version
"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

New Living Translation
“Then at the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the king of the north. The king of the north will storm out with chariots, charioteers, and a vast navy. He will invade various lands and sweep through them like a flood.

English Standard Version
“At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.

Borean Study Bible
At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships, invading many countries and sweeping through them like a flood.

New American Standard Bible
"At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through.

King James Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Christian Standard Bible
"At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood.

Contemporary English Version
At the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the kingdom of the north. But its king will rush out like a storm with war chariots, cavalry, and many ships. Indeed, his forces will flood one country after another,

Good News Translation
"When the king of Syria's final hour has almost come, the king of Egypt will attack him, and the king of Syria will fight back with all his power, using chariots, horses, and many ships. He will invade many countries, like the waters of a flood.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood.

International Standard Version
"'At the time of the end, the southern king will oppose him, and the northern king will overrun him with chariots, cavalry, and many ships. He'll invade countries, moving swiftly and sweeping through.

NET Bible
"At the time of the end the king of the south will attack him. Then the king of the north will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and a large armada of ships. He will invade lands, passing through them like an overflowing river.

New Heart English Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south attack him. And the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall invade countries, and pass through like a flood.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow, as he passes through.

New American Standard 1977
“And at the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them, and pass through.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But at the end of the time the king of the south shall lock horns with him, and the king of the north shall raise up a storm against him with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships, and he shall enter into the lands and shall overflow and pass over.

King James 2000 Bible
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south attack him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

American King James Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

American Standard Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
And at the end of the time he shall conflict with the king of the south: and the king of the north shall come against him with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and they shall enter into the land: and he shall break in pieces, and pass on:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And at the time prefixed the king of the south shall fight against him, and the king of the north shall come against him like a tempest, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with a great navy, and he shall enter into the countries, and shall destroy, and pass through.

Darby Bible Translation
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and overflow and pass through.

English Revised Version
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Webster's Bible Translation
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

World English Bible
At the time of the end shall the king of the south contend with him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass through.

Young's Literal Translation
'And at the time of the end, push himself forward with him doth a king of the south, and storm against him doth a king of the north, with chariot, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he hath come in to the lands, and hath overflowed, and passed over,

There is just one other translation that renders the text as ‘In’

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"In the end times the southern king will attack him. The northern king will rush at him like a storm with chariots, horses, and many ships. He will invade countries, overwhelm them, and pass through their land.

Actual Interlinear: -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/11-40.htm
nt.png
nt.png (158.04 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
Does it really matter if it’s 'In' or 'At'?

Yes...

At the time of the end can encompass the moments just before and leading up to the time when the end starts.
In the time of the end encompass the moment after the end had started.

In this matter the organization has been misleading.
The time of the end starts when the Great Tribulation starts, when Michael stands up according to Daniel chapter 12.
What happens between the Kings of the North and South in Daniel 11 occurs BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts.

Yes, I believe that the last days of this system started when Jesus became King in 1914 and Satan was evicted from heaven.

The last days, the time of the end, the conclusion of the system of things and the harvest have all been merged together by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Despite this misleading and in considering Daniel 11:40-43 as being a continuance rather than a reiteration, I have to wonder if the events we now behold are all linked.

(Daniel 11:40-43) “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood. He will also enter into the land of the Decoration, and many lands will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand: Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the Amʹmon·ites. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not escape. And he will rule over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps.

Yes, we have witnessed a great pushing and shoving in recent times.
The result of this pushing – according to the angel in Daniel 11 – is that the King of the North will react, push back and push back hard.
He even goes as far as to gain mastery over the King of the South, ruling over Egypt, but he will not be allowed to break him.

This is because of what was also said regarding the King of the South in Daniel chapter 8: -

(Daniel 8:23-25) “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

So who is going to be this King of the North...?

Russia, China, Iran, North Korea or someone else?

The King of the South is pushing the whole region in one way or another.
What is looked for in order to clearly identify the King of the North is the push back and the further foretold invasion of Israel.

(Daniel 11:41) He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon.

This Land of the Decoration refers to the land of Israel.

(Ezekiel 20:6) In that day I swore that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt to a land that I had searched out for them, one flowing with milk and honey. It was the most beautiful of all the lands.

It was not until 1948 that Israel gained state recognition and became a modern day restored land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The USA has already tried to 'curry favor' with Israel by moving its embassy to Jerusalem, publicly recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
Israel is strategic and a very important ally to the west, the loss of relations would be disastrous.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-mid ... -jerusalem https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42246564

After the King of the North pushes back and enters Israel - what next?

(Daniel 11:42, 43) And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy•ans and the E•thi•oʹpi•ans will be at his steps.

Yes, the prophecy foretells some very bad times ahead...

It mentions Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the sons of Amʹmon - historical enemies of Israel that no longer exist as nations today.
These are symbolic of modern day enemies of Israel that join with and work with this invading King.

Once this invasion has been completed, Michael then stands up resulting in the start of the Great Tribulation which disturbs this campaign that the North has been on.

(Daniel 11:44, 45) “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

(Daniel 12:1) “During that time Miʹcha•el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.

In fact, it is Michael standing that halts or disturbs the King of the North in doing what he is doing.
It is this event that will force both Kings to work together in their opposition of the Messianic Kingdom.

(Isaiah 2:4) He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

(Psalm 46:9) He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.

(1 Thessalonians 5:3) Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

(Revelation 19:19)And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.

Yes, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that a cry of peace and security will occur before the Great Tribulation begins.
However, they do not know who the THEY are that declare such...

Both the Kings of the North and South have been at war since their creation, trying to gain mastery or agreeable terms.

However, the prophesy in Daniel paints no picture of such a peace between these two Kings ever occurring before Michael stands.
Again, remember what the Angel said regarding their equitable arrangement and when exactly this would succeed: -

(Daniel 11:27) “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed.

Yes, prior to WW1 both Kings were giving the impression of being at peace with each other, but it was a lie.
According to the Angel, in the time of the end, this lie or peace would succeed, at the time appointed.

So in conclusion and where we are at...

I firmly believe we are seeing the initial fulfillment of Daniel 11:40 happening before our very eyes.

May we all endeavor to put right the things that need putting right in order to be found standing and enduring (as opposed to failing & falling) before the Son of Man.

(Matthew 7:24-27) “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

(Luke 21:36) Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

Kind Regards

Kerry Huish
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#2 Post by John S » 1 year ago

Hi Kerry, I respect your long hours of work on this beautiful piece of examining Daniel.

Thats a book I dont dally in too much as The King of the North /South history is a mystery to me.

But I do know that Christ and the spirit born sons of the Kingdom, his brothers, are the focus of the last days prophesies, as those who bear witness to Jesus come under the attack of Satan at the very end when Satan returns to earth ,having been defeated in the war of Heaven.

You, like others who have visited and shared the WT Society’s view, that “Jehovah’s people” , are the ones who are privileged to be the sole recipient of prophecy’s fulfillment.

But that is not Christ’s teaching is it?

To those who persecute Jesus’ brothers at the end, the witnesses of Jesus, who number many millions today among churches near and far...Jesus had this to say:

“.... He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:45,46

So I recommend JW s everywhere widen out in your expressions to include not only JW’s virtually a handful, compared to 8 million, who are spirit born ....but the many millions of Christians who are spirit born in all religions and out worldwide.

Kosonen
Posts: 350
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#3 Post by Kosonen » 1 year ago

Hi Kerry Huish, I am glad that you try to understand Daniel 11 and 12 and I am glad that you don't blindly believe what the WT organization puts out. Yes, we should use our 'power of reason' in our service to God. (Romans 12:2)

And as you remarked, the 'apostacy' and the 'cleansing and whitening' is downplayed, contrary to the prophecy in Daniel 11:32-35. And as you pointed out this is to continue until the end.

So we have some common ground, you and me. And I would appreciate if you could understand my reasons why I understand that Daniel 11:31 and forward has not yet got its fulfilment.
Actually the last part of Daniel 11:30 has not yet been fulfilled in my opinion, when it says: "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

First of all I see a pattern in the book of Daniel. Daniel gets foreknowledge about kingdoms on 4 separate occasions. And every time the description becomes more and more detailed. But they are more or less about the same kingdoms.

The first vision was as stated in Daniel 2:1 "In the second year of his kingship, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar had a number of dreams, and he was so agitated that he could not sleep."

The second vision was as stated in Daniel 7:1 "In the first year of King Bel·shazʹzar+ of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay on his bed."

The third vision was as stated in Daniel 8:1 "In the third year of the kingship of King Bel·shazʹzar, a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that appeared to me previously.

The fourth revelation Daniel got "In the third year of King Cyrus+ of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel,"(Daniel10:1) And this revelation was the most detailed spanning from chapter 10 to 12.

Here we can talk about the light getting brighter. Because for every new vision or revelation, Daniel gets more detailed information, especially about the "time of the end".

Thus the final evil prominent figure in all the 3 last visions/revelations should depict the same.

Daniel 7:11 “I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12 But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

Daniel 8:25 "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things."......45 And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

Can we agree that these scriptures are about the same "king"? The time period is the same, and the character of the king/horn is essentially the same, arrogant, exalting himself, speaking against God and Prince of Princes, Jesus Christ.

And in all these visions/revelations this king/horn is eliminated in a divine way. So, that means that their destruction is still in the future. That exludes Nazy Germany or Hitler or Soviet Union from the equation, because they were not destroyed in a divine super human way.

Daniel 7 is also very clear that the 3 and half year persecution of the "holy ones", of anointed christians will happen during 3 and half years up till the destruction of that arrogant speaking horn. And shortly after that God's kingdom begins its rule, Jesus Christ together with "people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One", the anointed 144000.

Daniel 7:25 "He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

Then again in Daniel 12:6 we get the confirmation that the end will be preceded with a 3 and half year persecution period of the holy ones, the anointed: "Then one said to the man clothed in linen,+ who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever:+ “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time.* As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end,+ all these things will come to their finish.”

And Daniel 12:11,12 gives more details about that final time of persecution: “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days.
12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!

To me it is evident from all these visions and revelations that they deal with the same king/horn and are about the same time of about 3 and half years and it is about the same persecution of the holy ones. Naturally the 12th chapter in Daniel is about the end of this system. Because the happy thing that will happen at the 1335th day from when the constant feature had been removed and the disgusting thing had been placed. What exactly will happen the 1335th day is not revealed. Could it be the destruction of Babylon the Great? Or something else around that time? We can not know before it happens.

Because of all that and other reason I can not believe that the constant feature was already removed in 1919 or during the second world war. And really the constant feature was never removed since WT organization was founded. And the disgusting thing can thus not feature Ligue of Nations or UN. Instead we should patiently wait this to happen in the near future.

To understand what the disgusting thing really represent, we have to look what it represented in the first fulfillment Jesus talked about. It should be something similar once again. Idols representing beasts would better fit "the disgusting thing".
How to defile a place of worship?
If Hitler had placed Swastikas on the German Bethel, would that not had defiled it? Hitler required that the Swastika was worshiped. It was the image of that beast.
Now every country has its own image of its beast, the flag. And would we not feel disgust if the state forced us to adorn our places of worship with flags of the country we live in?

Logically in the end time the disgusting thing is only once placed on or in a holy place, in a sanctuary and fortress, representing WT headquarter buildings. And the constant feature is removed also only once. After that the apostacy gets free reins, but individual JWs cut off from the headquarters are cleansed, whitened and refined and guided by the help of local anointed, by "those having insight among the people".

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#4 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 year ago

Kosonen wrote:
1 year ago

Daniel 8:25 "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things."......45 And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.

Can we agree that these scriptures are about the same "king"? The time period is the same, and the character of the king/horn is essentially the same, arrogant, exalting himself, speaking against God and Prince of Princes, Jesus Christ.
I cannot agree that these scriptures are talking about the same King.

Dan 8:25 is talking about the King of the South.
This can be seen from an examination of the context, particularly Dan 8:9

Dan 11:36 is talking about the King of the North.
This can be seen from an examination of the context, particularly the verses leading up to Dan 11:36

I will agree that ALL of Daniel chapter 12 is yet future.
What we disagree on if where we are at with Daniel 11.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kosonen
Posts: 350
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#5 Post by Kosonen » 1 year ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
1 year ago
I will agree that ALL of Daniel chapter 12 is yet future.
Do you mean that there will be a 3 and half year time of persecution, especially of the anointed, the holy ones before Armageddon, a period that has not yet begun? As stated in Daniel 12:6,7

And what do you say about Daniel 8:23-25? You said it is the king of south, USA. Could Donald Trump play that role in the future?

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#6 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 year ago

Kosonen wrote:
1 year ago
Do you mean that there will be a 3 and half year time of persecution, especially of the anointed, the holy ones before Armageddon, a period that has not yet begun? As stated in Daniel 12:6,7

Yes.
Kosonen wrote:
1 year ago
And what do you say about Daniel 8:23-25? You said it is the king of south, USA. Could Donald Trump play that role in the future?

Maybe...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

goghtherefore
Posts: 128
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#7 Post by goghtherefore » 1 year ago

Hi Kerry Huish

Regarding your teaching: "Never before has such a thing occurred. Indeed, in 205 lands around the globe more than
2,650,000 witnesses of Jehovah are zealously doing the fine work of spreading the heartening message that Christ has been ruling in Kingdom power since 1914."

Can you offer a scripture reference for this statement? Thanx.

(It seems to me the "good news of the kingdom" is the gospel of our Lord Jesus which includes much more than what witnesses teach!)

Currently my view of fullillment of Daniels prophecy includes and entity described in scripture of a beast that receives a death stroke that gets (in time) healed. jw.orgs teaching on this is, imo, does not have a ring of truth....(my hearing ain't what it used to be).


goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Stranger
Posts: 2241
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#8 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

goghtherefore wrote:
1 year ago
(It seems to me the "good news of the kingdom" is the gospel of our Lord Jesus which includes much more than what witnesses teach!)

Hi GTF,


I second that emotion! :thumbup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv9cWgkpIZ4

Stranger (Acts 4:12)

goghtherefore
Posts: 128
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#9 Post by goghtherefore » 1 year ago

8-)
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Where we are at...? Daniel 11 & 12.

#10 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 year ago

goghtherefore wrote:
1 year ago
Hi Kerry Huish

Regarding your teaching: "Never before has such a thing occurred. Indeed, in 205 lands around the globe more than
2,650,000 witnesses of Jehovah are zealously doing the fine work of spreading the heartening message that Christ has been ruling in Kingdom power since 1914."

Can you offer a scripture reference for this statement? Thanx.

goghtherefore
You mean regarding the WATCHTOWER teaching?

You seem to have misquoted part of my thread where I was quoting from a watchtower publication, illustrating their wicked 'shoehorning' of their 'time of the end' teaching into a 1914 setting?

From my understanding, you have spent enough time as a witness to know exactly thier scriptural reasons for why they beleive Christ was enthroned in 1914...

Rather than take another thread off topic.
And if you are actually interested in scriptural reasons for 1914, then I addressed this here: -

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3048&p=37479&hilit= ... 914#p37479

The reasoning presented there does not use any number crunching, like the watchtower, nor any sort of pyramid measuring, like Russell...

Please leave this thread on topic.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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