CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

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Stranger
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#11 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
At any rate, part of my idea is to interest visitors to this sight with hopes of opening up their thinking processes.
Hi Bobcat,

I've always heard that great minds think alike. ;)
Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
I had never given any thought to this before. This page at Wikipedia lists various views on the subject. The most interesting is regarding Jesus' allusion to it at Jn 1:51. I'll have to put that on my research list.

Stranger, (Heb 6:9)

Bobcat
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#12 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Good job Stranger! You have been successful (with me).


Bobcat

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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#13 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

For the CLAM that starts Feb 3, 2020, below are links to reference material related to that meeting:
The Bible reading is from Genesis chapters 12 thru 14. This is part of what has been called the "Abraham Narrative." This narrative has a chiastic or symmetrical structure to it. The literary structure (and some of its ramifications) can be seen in this post.

In Gal 3:6-14 Paul refers to Gen 12:2; 18:18 (where Jehovah says that the nations would be blessed by means of Abraham's seed). According to WT theology, these nations that are blessed are not part of Abraham's seed, but merely gain blessings thru that seed (Jesus and the 144,000) But according to Paul (Gal 3:6-14, 16-17, 26-29) the Galatian Christians are both part of the nations that are blessed by Abraham's seed (Jesus), and also become part of Abraham's seed via their faith in Jesus.

The Galatian Christians are also part of the New Covenant as shown in Gal 4:21-31. (See this thread for similar thoughts in connection with the "great crowd" of Rev 7:9-17.)

[I'll add more references as I get time.]

Bobcat

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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#14 Post by Bobcat » 8 months ago

For the CLAM for the week of 8/17/2020 here are a few points of interest:
1. A post on Ex 17:6 & Num 20:8, where Moses is told to strike the rock in Exodus, but speak to the rock in Numbers: Here. There is a PDF linked to in the post that goes into the discussion. It really shows the fine detail that is embedded into Exodus by Moses who was very familiar with the territory of the wilderness trek. (See also post # 17 below.)


2. Regarding "blot out" (or "wipe out" in the NET) in Ex 17:14. The word is defined here. The same word is used at Gen 6:7 in connection with what Jehovah was going to do with mankind by means of the flood. Mention of Gen 6:7 was made in this post which discussed the power of water and its effect on man-made structures.


3. Pilate's wife having a dream and telling Pilate to not have anything to do with Jesus was in the book study part of the meeting. The Society always says that the dream was "evidently" of divine origin. But never gives a reason why they say so.

I was inclined to think the opposite. I'm still looking for the post in which I said so. But after further consideration I am also inclined now to think it was of "divine origin." The reasons involve Acts 3:13 and the fact that in the book of Matthew every other mention of dreams is always assumed to be of divine origin based on the context. Acts 3:13 gave me the thought that God was especially trying to highlight the guilt of the Jews in connection with Jesus' murder. If I can come up with any verse that carries a related thought to Ac 3:13 I will include it.


Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#15 Post by menrov » 8 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
8 months ago

3. Pilate's wife having a dream and telling Pilate to not have anything to do with Jesus was in the book study part of the meeting. The Society always says that the dream was "evidently" of divine origin. But never gives a reason why they say so.

I was inclined to think the opposite. I'm still looking for the post in which I said so. But after further consideration I am also inclined now to think it was of "divine origin." The reasons involve Acts 3:13 and the fact that in the book of Matthew every other mention of dreams is always assumed to be of divine origin based on the context. Acts 3:13 gave me the thought that God was especially trying to highlight the guilt of the Jews in connection with Jesus' murder. If I can come up with any verse that carries a related thought to Ac 3:13 I will include it.

Bobcat

Hi, if the dream was of divine origin, why not give the dream to Pilate? Particularly in those times, it was not a real custom to listen to your wife (right :whistle: ). In particular as this had to do with His Son.

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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#16 Post by Bobcat » 8 months ago

Hi Menrov,

Hope you are doing well during this pandemic.

As to why God would give the dream to Pilate's wife (supposing the dream was of divine origin) and not to Pilate, I can only guess.

Acts 2:23 shows that it was God's determination and purpose to have Jesus "executed." Also, a number of times Jesus describes that time as his "hour" to be delivered up. So, if God did give Pilate's wife the dream it would not have been for the purpose of preventing the fulfillment of what was going to happen to Jesus.

Acts 3:13 was the verse that gave me the thought that the Jews were being highlighted in their responsibility for the killing of Jesus. The Romans are blameworthy too. But not to the extent of the Jews. I suspect that Jehovah knew Pilate well enough to know that he would cave in to the pressure. Pilate seemed more concerned with other things than just the unfair execution of an innocent Jew. (Mt 27:17, 18, 22, 23, 24) From Pilate's point of view, the Jews were probably just another low life nation of subjects to Rome. And from the point of view of the Jews, Pilate was just another despised Gentile, a lower class of person than the Jews.

Anyways, that was my thought. The NT (in a general way) seems to present the idea that if the Jews (who had God's Law) are guilty/blameworthy, then, it goes without saying that Gentiles are also. So, by highlighting the Jews culpability, the Gentiles naturally fall under that also.

Previously, I was thinking that Satan was the one who had the motive to prevent Jesus from being killed (see the 3rd paragraph in this post). But this dream of Pilate's wife is only mentioned in Matthew. And every other occurrence of dreams in Matthew is spoken of as if it is from God. So since the one in Mt 27:19 gives no indication otherwise, that was weighing in favor of Matthew also assuming it was from God.

It is also interesting that in this particular case the dream is given indirectly to Pilate, via his wife. In every other occurrence of dreams in Matthew, the dream is given directly to the one needing to take action (Joseph and the Magi). From Pilate's perspective, I think it would be reasonable to say that he would have viewed himself as having made reasonable efforts to prevent an injustice. That is, reasonable from his perspective as a Roman governor dealing with a subject peoples (the Jews). (Mt 27:12-14, 17-18, 21-23). And it could also be reasonably said that he did follow his wife's advice regarding her dream. (Mt 27:19, 24)

If you see any argument in favor or against I would be glad to hear it. My view isn't written in stone at this point. I simply feel that the weight of the evidence at this time falls on the divine origin side of things.


Bobcat

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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#17 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

For the CLAM of week 4/12/2021 the meeting covers Numbers 20 & 21. Num 20:8 is where Moses is told to SPEAK to the rock to bring out water for the Israelites in the wilderness. Previously, in Ex 17:6, Moses was told to STRIKE the rock to bring out water. Jehovah became angry with Moses in Num 20:12 after Moses struck the rock.

Here is a short PDF (7 pages) that discusses rock formations in those areas and why Moses failed on that occasion.

This post and this one also discuss this topic.


Bobcat

Stranger
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#18 Post by Stranger » 3 weeks ago

Bobcat wrote:
3 weeks ago
Here is a short PDF (7 pages) that discusses rock formations in those areas and why Moses failed on that occasion.
Hi Bobcat,

One could compare those rocks to Bibles, knowing the difference between the bad ones and the good one, it could be a matter of life or death. Moses lost his mouthpiece and Aaron lost his Life because of it. (Ex 4:10-17) (Nu 20:28-29) 'According to one Jewish tradition, the rebels criticize Moses with these words:'

"Moses knows the properties of this particular rock! If he wishes to prove his miraculous powers, let him bring out water for us from this other one".


Stranger, (1Cor 10:4)

Bobcat
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#19 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

Hi Stranger,

I did some research on this topic (Ex 17:6 & Num 20:8) and, just as you cited 1Co 10:4, there was some symbolic drama related to this. It was interesting to see various explanations for how Moses' failure fits into this drama (that is, if it does).

As 1Co 10:4 shows, the rock pictures the Christ. And Paul expands on the drama and its meaning throughout 1Co 10:1-13. Moses part (and failure) in the drama might possibly be covered in 1Co 10:12-13. Some webpages have posited the idea that Moses role in this might be related to Christian religious leaders who draw too much attention to themselves, just as Moses and Aaron did in Num 20:8. That is an interesting idea. And it could possibly be applied to the religious leadership of many different denominations, including one based in New York. One could also see how it could possibly be applied to the Jewish religious leaders, especially near the time when the Messiah arrived in the 1st century. Most of them ended up being barred (as it were) from becoming followers of Christ and 'entering into God's rest' as described in Heb 4:1-11, ostensibly because they were more concerned with honoring themselves. (Jn 5:41-44)

It's interesting that Moses is not allowed to enter the Promised Land because of failing to honor Jehovah on the occasion in Num 20:8, 12. Yet throughout the rest of the Bible Moses is held to be an example of faithfulness. (Heb 11:23-28; Note how Moses is given more text in Heb 11 than probably anyone else.) So this caused me to think that Moses failing to get into the Promised Land might be symbolic of something in particular. (Compare Heb 3:12-19) In effect, Moses being barred from the Promised Land was more to fulfill a prophetic drama rather than a statement about his character.

At any rate, I'm at work at the moment. So I'll have some time to mull over it.

Hope your day goes well.


Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#20 Post by menrov » 3 weeks ago

You wonder why one act that is considered as being incorrect or offensive by God is a strong enough reason not to allow Moses to enter the promised land. All his good acts are not sufficient to offset this one so-called offense. If the story is real, this would sound very unrighteous and unfair. in particular when taking the circumstances under which the so-called offense was committed.

On the other hand, if the whole story is symbolic, it could mean that after death of Christ, all have eternal life unless you lose it (a view in contrast to WT view that is that you need to deserve / work for eternal life and who knows, you might get it).

Again, who is to tell what is symbolic or real in the scriptures.

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