CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

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Stranger
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#41 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

Bobcat wrote: 2 weeks ago Too bad that the WT, in attempting to conjure up some sort of hero image of Samson, loses sight of some really good lessons that could be learned from the account. Instead, they put their focus on what is really important to the WT, themselves, and the need for JWs to put all their loyalty in the organization.

Hi Bobcat,

Yes, it is to bad. WT goes to great extents to retain their deeply entrenched tradition perspectives. It just doesn't fit their business plan.


Stranger, (Deut 8:18)

Bobcat
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#42 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi Stranger,

Yea, too bad. If the WT were to focus on trying to see and explain God's Word correctly and not worry about themselves, lovers of God's Word would naturally hold them in respect. WT wouldn't have to repeatedly focus on loyalty to themselves. It would come naturally.

Instead, WT emphasizes themselves. And the end result is that more and more of those who wish to be loyal to God begin to see through the facade. WT ends up not having the very thing they are striving for. (Lu 12:21)


Bobcat

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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#43 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 2 weeks ago

Samson was single-minded in the pursuit of his objective, his fight against the Philistines... Samson needed a lodging place for the night in an enemy city, and it could be found in the house of a prostitute.
"The WT has to point this out because the wording of Jdg 16:1 clearly indicates that Samson visited the prostitute for the same reason most men who visit prostitutes do."

Image

Bobcat you almost made me die of laughter. :lol: WT is really becoming... creative.
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Stranger
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#44 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

FriendlyDoggo wrote: 2 weeks ago "The WT has to point this out because the wording of Jdg 16:1 clearly indicates that Samson visited the prostitute for the same reason most men who visit prostitutes do."

Samson is named with many a great prophets, if he be guilty shall these be guilty too (Heb 11:32) ?


Stranger, (Heb 12:3 KJV)

Bobcat
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#45 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi Stranger,

I think WT would use Heb 11:32 to 'prove' that Samson did no wrong. But looking at the same list in Heb 11:32 one could point out the very bad crimes of David (adultery, murder), and Gideon's less-than-perfect life (see here and here). Yet, despite these failings, they showed faith and gained a measure of approval from God. Despite their faith, they were, otherwise, sinners like the rest of us.

WT could have used an accurate accounting of Samson to show how God deals with all of us less-than-perfect individuals who try to show faith in him. Instead, they try to distort the real nature of Samson (for example) so as to create this 'perfect' hero of faith. Jonah is another example. One can find acts of faith in the Biblical record of him (one of the "prophets" of Heb 11:32). Yet, the Bible also accurately paints the real flaws of Jonah too.

In commenting on Heb 11:32, Constable's Notes says,
Each individual that the writer mentioned was less than perfect, as is every believer. Yet God approved the faith of each one.

Bobcat

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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#46 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat,
Bobcat wrote: 2 weeks ago WT could have used an accurate accounting of Samson to show how God deals with all of us less-than-perfect individuals who try to show faith in him. Instead, they try to distort the real nature of Samson (for example) so as to create this 'perfect' hero of faith.
Exactly the point I was trying to make, but it wasn't totally directed at the WT.

Just to add:
Instead of Delilah being a full fledged prostitute she was more so, a kept mistress, a (Philistine courtesan) so to speak. Would that be correct?


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AmosAU
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#47 Post by AmosAU » 2 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat, Stranger and all,

Re Samson, David, etc. I believe that they were very little different to us today. What is noteworthy, but often overlooked is that each were chastised by a loving God. Each repented of their sins/crimes and were ultimately forgiven. I see this as a very powerful example for us today, not to commit sin deliberately and repent with the thought that we will be forgiven. But rather that it is a deterent for us to willfuly sin.

There is so much information packed into the Tanach/OT that is truly vital for our instruction in our walk with YHWH.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#48 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi Stranger,
Instead of Delilah being a full fledged prostitute she was more so, a kept mistress, a (Philistine courtesan) so to speak. Would that be correct?

It's hard to say for sure. The account about her (Jdg 16:4-22) gives us no definitive background on Delilah. That's a good indication that the lessons to be learned in the account are in connection with Samson. And that is what made the CLAM talk about her so curious. Listening to the speaker go on and on about how she proved false to her marriage vows and what lessons we can derive from it. Not a word about Samson, except that he was betrayed so unfairly.

The whole talk (about 10 minutes) focused entirely on her disloyalty and how we can learn from it. It assumed that she was Samson's wife, and that she acted traitorously with Samson. Yet, as I posted in post # 40 (here; and see the links there also), the account says nothing about him marrying her. It says he loved her. Did she love him back? Or did she have other motives for being involved in the relationship? The account just doesn't say. Nor does it say what eventually happened to her. She just disappears from Biblical history.

It does say that she did accept the bribe that was offered to her. (Jdg 16:5) And she repeatedly tried to turn Samson over to the Philistines. (Jdg 16:6-14) Why he didn't catch on? It seems he did, and even toyed with her. (Jdg 16:15) But 'he loved her.' And eventually she wore him down in a way the Philistines never were able. (Jdg 16:16-17; Pr 22:3; Jas 1:14, 15) From the information the account gives, all that can be surmised is that Samson was a victim of his own desires. He tempted fate (so-to-speak), and eventually got burned.

He followed a pattern that seems to afflict anyone who gets involved in a pattern of sin. They get confident in themselves. But there is, eventually, a reaping of what we sow. (Gal 6:7-8)

But none of that was mentioned or even hinted at in the CLAM talk. For the WT, it was such a good opportunity to emphasize how we should be loyal to the "organization" and shun DFed ones out of 'loyalty to God' (which actually means loyalty to the WT). Like I said, what a wasted opportunity to actually point out some good lessons to be learned.


Bobcat


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Re: CLAM: Research, Notes, & Comments

#50 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote: 2 weeks ago Why he didn't catch on? It seems he did, and even toyed with her. (Jdg 16:15)
Hi Bobcat,

Because he loved her, I believe he was following marriage feast customs of presenting riddles to her. The question of whether she was or was not his wife, my only answer would be "I trow not".



Stranger, (Lu 17:9 KJV)

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