The AntiChrist

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Stranger
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Re: The AntiChrist

#21 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote,
I'm glad the rains have come. My goodness, the heat seemed so intense last week. I used a weed trimmer for about an hour last week and ended up sick for three days.
Beware of the (conium maculatum), every year dozens of people die or are sickened by weeds they didn't know would cause them harm.

"It's a very competitive world, and no plant could survive without producing some defense mechanism." (http://www.wssa.net.)

Incidentally, thanks for the offered help with the refrigerator. The problem was a small piece of styrofoam that blocked the fan in the top freezer that distributes cool air to the lower section.
You're most kindly welcome, and if you ever need help with anything, (trucks, cars, small machinery or large, I'm open 24/7 and have a mobile unit standing by, fully equipped.) "Those busch league pilots, just can't get the job done."




Stranger, (Gal 3:25)<>(Gal 3:25 KJV)

tslawson1
Posts: 51
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#22 Post by tslawson1 » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote:
52 years ago
For me, this topic started on this thread (starting here). But because it started veering a bit off-topic there, I wanted to give it its own thread. This topic is also related (to some extent) to the king of the north thread (here). But again, to keep that thread from moving into a non-topic direction I wanted to create a new thread for the subject of "AntiChrist."

There is an interesting dichotomy between the WT view of "AntiChrist" and how it is viewed in non-WT circles. For the WT, the AntiChrist is more or less a religious entity, represented by a class of persons. For those of non-WT persuasion, "AntiChrist" seems to be more of an end times politico-religious world leader. An individual who takes over rulership of the world and leads it into the great tribulation at Christ's return.

I hope, in this starting post, to lay out what the Bible specifically says about this subject, as well as possibly related - or mistakenly related - ideas on this topic.


What the Word Antichrist Means

Antichrist is Strong's # 500 and is a compound of anti (Strong's # 473) and Christos (Strong's # 5547). AMG's The Complete Word Study Dictionary - NT defines it as, "literally an opposer of Christ or one who usurps the place of Christ, found only in John's epistles and collectively meaning all who deny that Jesus is the Messiah and that the Messiah is come in the flesh (1Jn 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2Jn 1:7).

I think some feel it must mean "in place of" rather than "against" or "opposing." But Jesus' words at Lu 11:23 make the difference somewhat moot. Someone trying to 'replace' the real Christ would be acting 'against' the real Messiah's interests. And John's description of "antichrist" and "many antichrists" does not emphasize the idea of 'replacing' so much as 'denying' the real Christ and 'deceiving' Jesus' followers. (1Jn 2:19, 22; 4:3; 2Jn 1:7) The discussion in 1Jn 2:18-27 may also be seen as describing the "many antichrists" as false anointed ones. In those verses, being anointed is put in contrast with those who "went out from us." And the 'anointing' teaches truth, whereas, the antichrists spread lies about the Christ.


What John Had to Say

The apostle John is the only Bible writer who specifically mentions the term "antichrist." So it would be interesting to see what he actually says about the topic. The following verses are the only ones that actually use the term antichrist:
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort. (1Jn 2:18-19 NWT)

22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. . . 26 I write you these things about those who are trying to mislead you. (1Jn 2:22, 26 NWT)

But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. (1Jn 4:3 NWT)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2Jn 1:7 NWT)
Those are all the specific Biblical statements about "antichrist." Although acknowledging that there are related verses on this topic, what can we pick out about "antichrist" from just these verses? Several things can be derived:


1. "You have heard that [the] antichrist is coming." Although, Biblically speaking, John's readers only first saw the term "antichrist" in John's letters, they obviously had heard the topic discussed before John wrote. So this lends itself to the idea that earlier NT writings were considered to have discussed this idea. We'll come back to that later. (Incidentally, "antichrist" in 1Jn 2:18 is anarthrous. This is why I put brackets around "the." Here are a number of renderings that render it both ways. The older NWT does not have "the." The newer one does.)


2. "Even now many antichrists have appeared." This phrase shows that what they heard was "coming" had, by then, already begun to arrive. This also touches on the definite article that I bracketed in point "1." "The antichrist" might suggest or allow for an individual who was expected to fulfill this role. But John leaves off the article, suggesting, or at least allowing for, "antichrist" to be a collective term under which many individuals would operate in that role. 1Jn 4:3 also carries the idea that they knew antichrist was coming, and was already in the world.


3. "From which fact we know that it is the last hour." This phrase shows that the appearance of these many "antichrists" was indicative of a particular era or time frame. Regarding "the last hour," Constable's Notes says,
Throughout the New Testament the writers regarded the present inter-advent age, after the Incarnation and before the Lord’s return, as the last hour or the last days. This is the final period before the Lord Himself breaks into history again.
On John's use of the term "hour," Robertson's Word Pictures points out that this is a "common idiom in John's Gospel (Jn 2:4; 4:21, 23; 5:25, 28; 7:30 etc.)" (Vol VI, p. 411) In all these places the term "hour" has a similar meaning to how we would use the word "time." Thus, John's "the last hour" would be equivalent to Jude's "the last time" (Jude 1:18), which also equates with Peter's "the last days." (2Pe 3:3)

The upshot of all this is that John was expecting the appearance of "antichrists" to be a significant development of the inter-advent era. An era that now stretches across nearly 20 centuries.


4. "They went out from us." "They," agreeing with "many antichrists," would again suggest that John understood, not some particular individual, but many individuals that would be a part of an 'antichrist class,' as it were, just going by what John has written so far. The fact that "they went out from us," that is from Christianity, would also locate this phenomenon as an inter-advent development. It would also mean that John saw this development as an apostasy from what he considered to be the true Christian faith.


5. "They went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort." This phrase shows that there was some divine purpose in allowing this situation to develop. Not only was the situation foreseen, but God and Christ foresaw something useful that would come out of it. (Compare 2Th 2:10-12)


6. "Those who are trying to mislead you." (1Jn 2:26) And, "For many deceivers have gone out into the world." (2Jn 7) These two phrases help show that this apostasy was not simply disaffected people leaving John's religion, but that there was an intelligent purpose behind the operation of "antichrist." It suggests that there was a mastermind, and a master plan, behind this development. And that it was intended to adversely affect the main body of true Christians.

All these factors should help us to identify other scriptures that form the prophetic description of this development.


Another "AntiChrist"

Before concluding this post, it seemed appropriate to mention that there is at least one other individual that rightly deserves the term "antichrist." In fact, he could correctly be seen as "The AntiChrist." And yet, based on the verses quoted from 1 John, this person would not be included among the "antichrists" that John talks about. Who would this be?

It would be none other than Satan the Devil. From the very beginning of his rebellion he was foretold to be a staunch opponent of "the seed of the woman." (Gen 3:15) He is described as having been continually bent on eliminating that seed. (Rev 12:3-4) And when he failed in that endeavor (Rev 12:5), he went after those who became the 'seed of the woman' via their faith in the Christ. (Rev 12:13, 15, 17)

I mention this because this leaves open the possibility for some to confuse the activities of the foretold "antichrist" and "many antichrists" that John speaks of, with some of the foretold activities of this spirit 'antichrist.' Indeed, the two are very much related. (Compare 2Th 2:9)


Bobcat

Bobcat,

I find many points of similarity in my speculation on the identity of the AntiChrist. Something that GK Beale turned me on to is the use of the Greek word for hour (ὥρα) and John’s use of it in his epistles and Revelation and its connection with the “man of lawlessness”.
John picks this word up from the end times prophecies in Daniel in speaking about the king of the north’s activities against God (Daniel 12:36) and Daniel’s people (Daniel 12:1-3)! I give some context for the use of ὥρα but note especially 11:45 where it say “and the hour of his end will come and there will be no one to help him” and 12:1 where it speaks of the attack of the king of the north on holy mountain of decoration and refers back to “that hour” when Michael stands up in protection of Daniel’s people!

And you’ll remember that it is for one hour that the wild beast (UN?) is given authority to act against Babylon and Christ’s followers!

And note that the “man of lawlessness” is described in the terms of what the “king of the north” does in elevating himself above every god, seating himself on God’s throne.

καὶ ἀκοὴ ταράξει αὐτὸν ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν καὶ βορρᾶ, καὶ ἐξελεύσεται ἐν θυμῷ ἰσχυρῷ καὶ ῥομφαίᾳ ἀφανίσαι καὶ ἀποκτεῖναι πολλούς.
(Dan. 11:44 LXX1)

καὶ στήσει αὐτοῦ τὴν σκηνὴν τότε ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν θαλασσῶν καὶ τοῦ ὄρους τῆς θελήσεως τοῦ ἁγίου· καὶ ἥξει ὥρα τῆς συντελείας αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ἔσται ὁ βοηθῶν αὐτῷ.
(Dan. 11:45 LXX1)


καὶ κατὰ τὴν ὥραν ἐκείνην παρελεύσεται Μιχαηλ ὁ ἄγγελος ὁ μέγας ὁ ἑστηκὼς ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ λαοῦ σου· ἐκείνη ἡ ἡμέρα θλίψεως, οἵα οὐκ ἐγενήθη ἀφ᾿ οὗ ἐγενήθησαν ἕως τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης· καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ὑψωθήσεται πᾶς ὁ λαός, ὃς ἂν εὑρεθῇ ἐγγεγραμμένος ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ.
(Dan. 12:1 LXX1)

καὶ σὺ βάδισον ἀναπαύου· ἔτι γάρ εἰσιν ἡμέραι καὶ ὧραι εἰς ἀναπλήρωσιν συντελείας, καὶ ἀναπαύσῃ καὶ ἀναστήσῃ ἐπὶ τὴν δόξαν σου εἰς συντέλειαν ἡμερῶν.
(Dan. 12:13 LXX1)

Here’s something I wrote that discusses the connection of Daniel 11:44-12:3 with Jesus’ Great Prophecy especially Matt 24:15-31 that I believe proves Jesus was drawing from these verses:

I believe that at Matthew 24:15-31 Jesus is drawing from Daniel’s prophecy at Daniel 11:44 - 12:3 and is applying it to the eschaton. His role in it are point for point found at Daniel 11:44-12:3. Also these same events are spoken of at Revelation 6:9 - 7:13 including the event of a celestial phenomena as in Matthew.

At Revelation 6:9 - 7:13 we find a celestial phenomena, a great earthquake/tribulation a resurrection, an evident attack on the fellow slaves of those who have been resurrected and given white robes. This attack is strongly implied in that they cry out urgently for God to act on behalf of their brothers who are about to be killed. This same motif appears in Rev 16-17. So unless Revelation was written at an early date (this view is held by preterists) before the destruction of Jerusalem then these events depicted in Daniel 11:44-12:3, Matthew 24: 15-31 and the book of Revelation had their fulfillment in the 1st century they point to a future fulfillment.


A comparison of the prophesied events at Daniel 11:44-12:3 which are connected with Michael and Jesus’ application of those same events to himself at Matt 24:21-31 strongly hint that Jesus is Michael and that these events, though having a minor fulfillment in the 1st century they have their complete fulfillment in the future.

I believe that the below comparison of Daniel 11:44-12:3 with Matthew 24:15-31
shows that this is the where Jesus is drawing from in for his explanation of the events at the consummation of the last days, also called the the eschaton.

Matt 24:15-31 describes these events:
1.) A desolating military force will take a menacing position in the “holy place”.
2.) A time of great tribulation.
3.) A saving of God’s chosen ones. (therefore by implication an attack upon these very ones)
4.) A coming of the Son of man with great power and glory.
5.) The gathering of the chosen ones to heaven.

At Daniel 11:44-12:1 the prophet describes these four events:
1.) The king of the north will bring forth his military force to annihilate “many” planting his military force between the grand sea and the holy mountain of decoration.
2.) A time of distress the likes of which has never occurred before.
3.) All who are written down in the God’s book will escape.
4.) Michael the great prince of Israel will stand up in a new and glorious sense.
5.) A change from humans to glorious spirit beings.

Jesus speaks of a “gathering” the chosen ones from the four winds to heaven. Daniel describes it as “shining brightly as the expanse of the heavens” and “like stars forever”. The Jews viewed shining beings as divine and the stars in some contexts as spirit beings.

Shining brightly in the expanse of heaven and like the stars forever and ever is clear language of a heavenly resurrection and glorification of these ones to heavenly life. Jesus makes this clear in his kingdom parable of the sower of fine seed as recorded by Matthew. We both see this as an event that takes place at the yet to be fulfilled parousia of Christ with his angels. Obviously then when the parousia occurs is important to pinpointing the resurrection of the holy ones to heaven.

Note that at Matthew 13:43 Jesus draws from Daniel 12:3 when describing the reward of his faithful disciples.

Matt 13:43
At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their

Daniel’s “people” are those who escape the attack of the “king of the north” and who are written down in the book. They are the ones who  are bringing many to righteousness. The events in 66-70 CE is minor fulfillment of the “disgusting thing” standing in a “holy place” but the Christians who escaped from Jerusalem weren’t gathered to heaven by the angels as Jesus descendants nor caught away in clouds in the air to Jesus as Paul wrote.

Note how Daniel 12:1-3 can be seen as the text from which both Jesus and Paul drew from at 1 Thess 4:13-16 and Matthew 24: 29-31:

And during that time (the great tribulation) your people will escape (the GT is cut short for the sake of Christians), everyone who is found written down in the book.  2 And many of those asleep in the dust (those sleeping in union with Christ - 1 Thess ‪4:13-16‬) of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt. 3 “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. 


This begs the questions:

1.) If Jesus came in the complete fulfillment of Matt 24:15-31 at 70 CE then when did the heavenly resurrection take place? 

2.) If Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem then wouldn’t Matt 24:15-31 would have both a minor and major fulfillment.





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Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#23 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Greetings tslawson1 (Tim),
This begs the questions:

1.) If Jesus came in the complete fulfillment of Matt 24:15-31 at 70 CE then when did the heavenly resurrection take place?

2.) If Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem then wouldn’t Matt 24:15-31 would have both a minor and major fulfillment.

I see you still come occasionally to take a look at things. And I am glad for that. You always made some thoughtful posts.

On question 1: On this post and this post I made a sort of indexed list of posts in that thread where I posted material on various parts of Mt 24.

Links 1 thru 5 in the second index above discuss Mt 24:30. Links 6 thru 8 in the second index are all about how Dan 12 is related to Mt 24. In its 1st century fulfillment, Dan 12:2-3 would equate with Mt 24:31. (Compare also how the parable of the wedding banquet in Mt 22:1-14 supports this sequence of events - here.) In Mt 24:30, Jesus' "coming on the clouds of heaven" is an allusion to Dan 7:13. The "coming" is to his Father to receive kingly power and authority, not to earth. In the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE, the unfaithful Jews would "see" Jesus' authority as king when they experienced the destruction he foretold upon Jerusalem and its temple. (On when, exactly, Jesus received kingdom power, see this post.) That war was when Dan 12:1 took place. But the literal resurrection did not follow. Only a figurative one did in the centuries that have followed. (Cmp. Jn 5:25; Eph 2:1-2; 4:18) Some coming to life as true Christians, some to false. (Cmp 2Th 2:1-12)

But Jesus' allusion to Dan 12:2-3 in the parable of the wheat and weeds would hint that there was to be a further fulfillment of Dan 12 at the end of the age. (Mt 13:42-43) Following the GT there would be a literal resurrection with 'the wise bringing many to righteousness. (Dan 12:3) And an eventual outcome as described in Dan 12:2.

On question 2: See the chart in this post. It compares Mt 24 with Rev 16:16-21. It shows that there is a very similar flow of events between the 1st century fulfillment of Mt 24 and Rev 16. But there are differences. (E.g. fleeing in the 1st century, not in Rev; BtG gets destroyed in Rev 16, but not in the 1st century.)

I don't know why I missed your post, but browsing around in past posts brought my attention to it.

I hope this post finds you doing well (esp. with a pandemic going on).


Bobcat

Harpo
Posts: 19
Joined: 2 weeks ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#24 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

Some people say the end-time anti-Christ is not a man but a spirit, that the man of sin is never called "the anti-Christ" in the bible.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (THE) antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word THE was omitted in the KJV and other translations. The interlinear shows the word THE is in the original text. 1st John is the only place in the bible where the man of sin IS CALLED THE ANTI-CHRIST! The NIV has it right...

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

The first word ANTI-CHRIST in 1 John 2:18 has the word THE before it and is SINGULAR. The second word anti-Christ without the word THE is plural. This is how it's written in the Greek Interlinear...

Little-boys-and-girls LAST HOUR it-IS AND according-AS YE-HEAR that THE INSTEAD-ANOINTED IS COMING AND NOW INSTEAD-ANOINTEDS MANY HAVE-BECOME WHICH PLACE WE-ARE-KNOWING that LAST HOUR it-IS.

Sometimes it's difficult to determine whether a passage is referring to the end-time anti-Christ or the false prophet. Regardless, BOTH are referred to as HE. Personal pronouns are used to describe them so they are people possessed by the spirits of the evil ones.

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#25 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (THE) antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word THE was omitted in the KJV and other translations. The interlinear shows the word THE is in the original text. 1st John is the only place in the bible where the man of sin IS CALLED THE ANTI-CHRIST! The NIV has it right...

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

The first word ANTI-CHRIST in 1 John 2:18 has the word THE before it and is SINGULAR. The second word anti-Christ without the word THE is plural. This is how it's written in the Greek Interlinear...

I'm not sure what interlinear you are using but both occurrences of antichrist in 1Jn 2:18 are anarthrous (without the article - I pointed this out in the OP). On the other hand, the occurrences of antichrist in 1Jn 2:22; 4:3; 2Jn 1:7 are all articular (with the article).

Edited to add: The Nestle-Arland (NA27) and UBS4 texts (which are usually considered the most up to date - although there are newer versions) as well as WH (1881) all lack the article in the first occurrence of antichrist in 1Jn 2:18. The Byzantine, Greek Orthodox and the TR all have the article. So maybe the interlinear you are using was based on one of the latter. (See here.) (All the texts agree on the article before antichrist in 1Jn 2:22; 4:3; 2Jn 7.)

See further on these variant readings in post # 27 below.


Bobcat

Harpo
Posts: 19
Joined: 2 weeks ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#26 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

It's in the Textus Receptus. The first word 'anti-Christ in 1John 2:18 is singular and does have the article. (the second word has no article and is plural.) Several other translations also show the word 'the'. The NIV translators, whose translators had more and 'earlier' documents to go by due to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, HAS the article. The same is true with the New KJV, NLT, and Youngs literal Translation, they all use the article for the same reason. The article IS in the earliest manuscripts. I did check the other verses you've quoted and the article IS in those verses.

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInt ... f/1jo2.pdf

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#27 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

I'm afraid our opinions differ on that, not that it is such a big deal.

Regarding 1Jn 2:18, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Bruce M. Metzger, 2nd Edition, p. 641) says:
The reading that best explains the origin of the other readings appears to be ὅτι, which is strongly supported by א* B C Ψ 1739 al. The conjunction is lacking in a few witnesses (A L 1881 al), thus making a more direct statement. The definite article, which is not present in א* B C Ψ 1739 al (showing that the word was understood as a proper name), was supplied by scribes in a number of witnesses, including א A L 1881 al, in order to identify Antichrist more forcefully.

(al = alia or "other witnesses")

See here for a listing and explanation of the symbols associated with the above referenced textual readings.


Bobcat

Kosonen
Posts: 321
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#28 Post by Kosonen » 1 week ago

Paul-Henri Spaak (Secretary General of NATO, 1957-1961)—We do not want another committee, we
have too many already. What we want is a man of sufficient stature to hold the allegiance of all people,
and to lift us out of the economic morass into which we are sinking. Send us such a man, and be he god
or devil. We will receive him (What in the World Is Going On?, by David Jeremiah)

Marina
Posts: 2213
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#29 Post by Marina » 1 week ago

Thanks for that quote Kosonen. Very interesting.

Watchtower is tending toward things in India. They are also drawing closer to the governments. Do they have ambitions like the Theosophists to bring about a new messiah or at least a Governing Body member who is Indian or Tibetan or Nepalese?

The new Governing Body member could then get rid of the other 8 and become Big Brother Krishna Urdoo III or Shepherd Tensing. Just there to help you go up to the mountain of the house of the Himalayas where he can bully you into walking in his paths or throw you under an avalanche.

The Theosophists based their hopes on Krishnamurti (you see him at the end of this video with a bow and arrow). I have said a few times that most if not all Watchtower's false teachings go back to Theo Sufism. And Sufism is a kind of Islam. The Theosophists want to bring about a one world religion and they are involved with the UN via their Lucis Trust (Lucifer Trust). Using the NIV translations Jesus can get reframed as Lucifer. How anti-christ is that!

Marina

Stranger
Posts: 2010
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: The AntiChrist

#30 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

Marina wrote:
1 week ago
I have said a few times that most if not all Watchtower's false teachings go back to Theo Sufism. And Sufism is a kind of Islam.
Are you saying that all JW's are unknowingly Islamic?


Stranger

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