Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

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johnamos2.0
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Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#11 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

by Kerry Huish
The Apostle Peter quoted those words of Joel in a partial fulfilment @ Pentecost.
No doubt about that...Peter did quote from there and apparently holy spirit was pour out at that time.
My question to you though was based on the context of the book Joel since you cited Scriptures from there.
It says: "After that I will pour out my spirit"

What is the 'after that' referring to?
What happens first in Joel's account, that afterward is when 'spirit is said to be poured out''?

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#12 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

by Bobcat
And before you ask, no, I do not believe "Armageddon" is a literal place on a map. It has symbolic meaning.
My use of the word and understanding of it is connected to the 'day of Jehovah' or 'great day of their wrath'. Either way it takes place at the time that Jesus arrives and the type of destruction that occurs at that time will be completely divine and only affects those that have the 'mark', the so-called goats.

That is a separate event from the GT. The GT takes place just prior to Armageddon. The GT is the 42 month period of authority that the 8th king is said to be giving. It also parallels the time period of the calamity brought on by the Northerner in Joel as well as Gog's attack and the KOTN and KFIC and MOL and attack by the digesting thing and the attack on Ariel and the nations trampling the holy city, etc.

This is why I was asking in your reply to if we are already experiencing the GT you said NO based on the fact that the "gathering of the kings and their armies to the place that is called Armageddon in Hebrew" has not yet occurred."

I would have thought you would have said something along the lines of; 'NO because the 10 kings still have not given their power and authority to the wild beast, making it the 8th king and it is at that point we are said to be in the GT.'

Hopefully that will soon happen:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5657

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#13 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
1 week ago
by Kerry Huish
The Apostle Peter quoted those words of Joel in a partial fulfilment @ Pentecost.
No doubt about that...Peter did quote from there and apparently holy spirit was pour out at that time.
My question to you though was based on the context of the book Joel since you cited Scriptures from there.
It says: "After that I will pour out my spirit"

What is the 'after that' referring to?
What happens first in Joel's account, that afterward is when 'spirit is said to be poured out''?
Lets imagine you were there at Pentecost and had witnessed the spirit being poured out.

You seen Peter stand up and quote Joel 2 in connection with the spirits outpouring.

But rather than rejoice at the outpouring, you question Peter with the words: -
johnamos2.0 wrote:
1 week ago
It says: "After that I will pour out my spirit"

What is the 'after that' referring to?
What happens first in Joel's account, that afterward is when 'spirit is said to be poured out''?
What answer do you think Peter would give you?

Do you not know what the 'locust plague' represents? Who was it that was stealing the food from God's people, stripping them naked and holding them captive, right up until the time when Peter spoke these words?

If you knew who it represented back then, then you should have some idea of who it represents now.

If you do not know who it was back then, then neither am I telling you whom it is now.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#14 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

Other than the fact that Peter quoted from Joel in regards that holy spirit would be poured out (Peter brought that to their attention to show that they were not drunk but instead it was that they were filled with holy spirit.), Joel had NO past fulfillment on the Jew's nor on the 1st century Christians. It awaits a future fulfillment and that can be easily shown by verse 2 in ch 3.

And as far as you crying about questioning Peter's words, why do you not feel the same in regards to yourself in ignoring Joel's words? Even more so being that they are really Jehovah's words.

Here is what was said:

'After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh,'

Do you have a reason for not wanting to answer that in the context of the book of Joel, what is said to happen FIRST before spirit will be poured out? :?: To say, 'AFTER THAT' it would have to mean that something took place first before the spirit is said to be poured out.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#15 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
1 week ago
Do you have a reason for not wanting to answer that in the context of the book of Joel, what is said to happen FIRST before spirit will be poured out? :?: To say, 'AFTER THAT' it would have to mean that something took place first before the spirit is said to be poured out.
Yes, I have reasons for not wanting to discuss spiritual matters with you...

One of them being that Joel's locust plague is off thread topic, you seem to be developing a rather bad habit of hijacking threads and taking them where you wish.

The other is Matthew 7:6

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#16 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

by Kerry Huish
One of them being that Joel's locust plague is off thread topic, you seem to be developing a rather bad habit of hijacking threads and taking them where you wish.
So let me get this straight, you are accusing me of hijacking a thread on the topic of the GT by me bringing up Joel's locust plague account :?:

1. The locust plague/calamity brought on by the Northerner, is the GT period, so I would say that I am right on topic with speaking about it.

2. You are the one 2 years ago that brought the book of Joel into this thread.
by Kerry Huish » 2 years ago
Q. Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

A. No

The GT starts with an outpouring of holy spirit upon ALL, not just upon a select few as we currenty behold.
When the spirit becomes operative upon a person in this way, they are also brought into judgment.

(Joel 2:28-32) After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said, The survivors whom Jehovah calls.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#17 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

According to Daniel, the Great Tribulation starts with the standing up or intervening of Michael.

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Notice, that this time of distress is a direct result of Michael standing, not of any of the escapades that occurs prior.

Just prior to this, the King of the North over powers the King of the South and invades the Land of Israel - according to Daniel 11:40-45.
Only after this has occurred does Michael stand. When Michael stands, Christ 'visible' presence starts and Joel 2:28 has its final fulfilment.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

This 'presence' or 'being alongside' has already been occurring for a select few since Pentecost 33CE, the powers of this coming system have already been 'tasted' by some.

Matthew 28:20 And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

When the spirit is poured out upon ALL flesh, the eyes of everyone will be opened, a great awakening will occur as people realize that they are being gathered for judgment.

Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

Speaking of the spirits arrival on a global scale, said Jesus: -

John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Jude 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

This day will come as a thief in the night for a great many.
Some will shine very brightly during this time, others, not so much...

Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#18 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

[Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”]

[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

[Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]<<>>[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

[Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’]

[Ezekiel 38:16 And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land,]

[Joel 1:6 For a nation has come up into my land, mighty and without number. Its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its jaws are those of a lion. …9 Grain offering and drink offering have ceased from the house of Jehovah; The priests, the ministers of Jehovah, are in mourning. 10 The field has been devastated, the ground mourns; For the grain has been devastated, the new wine has dried up, the oil has failed.]

[6-1-81 WT p.30 – Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples.]

[Ezekiel 38:13 Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]

[12-15-75 WT p.743 – The religious systems of Christendom* have constructed magnificent buildings throughout the earth. They have also amassed great wealth in other forms. In many lands, these vast holdings are, by reason of their claimed sacred status, exempt from the assessments and taxes imposed upon businesses in general. Christendom’s* “holy place,” however, will soon be invaded and destroyed…The religions of Christendom* will be deprived of their field of operation, losing control of everything. No respect will be shown for any of their claimed religious rights.]

* Based on the following change from the WTS that means that the used of the word Christendom above should be replaced with JW's (or 'God's people' whom ever they are).

[Restored At Last! p. 239we no longer refer to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem.]
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/110 ... p=par#h=26

[Restored At Last! p. 187-188 – The nations will “devise an evil plan.” They will seek to vent their long-standing rage and hatred on Jehovah’s worshippers, who will seem vulnerable, as if “living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” The nations will also be eager to “take much spoil and plunder” from those “who are accumulating wealth.” (Ezek. 38:10-12)… The nations may try to disrupt our way of life and stop us from carrying out our worship. To that end, perhaps they will try to interrupt the flow of spiritual food, prevent us from meeting together, break up the unity we enjoy, and stop us from zealously proclaiming God’s message.]

[Quote from “What the Future Holds” talk; speaking about Gog’s attack – “What’s the point? Brothers, we should expect them to despoil us of our human rights. We should expect them to confiscate all of Jehovah’s belongings and close down and take possession of all our branches, factories, depots, kingdom halls, assembly halls, everything. Don’t make any mistake about it. We are all in this together. We have a common enemy.”]

[Joel 1:10 The field has been despoiled, the ground has gone to mourning; for the grain has been despoiled, the new wine has been dried up, the oil has faded away. 11 Farmers have felt shame; vinedressers have howled, …the harvest of the field has perished.17 Dried figs have shriveled under their shovels. Storehouses have been laid desolate. Barns have been torn down, for the grain has dried up. 18 O how the domestic animal has sighed! How the droves of cattle have wandered in confusion! For there is no pasturage for them. Also, the droves of the sheep have been the ones made to bear guilt. 19 “To you, O Jehovah, I shall call; for fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness, and a very flame has consumed all the trees of the field. 20 The beasts of the field also keep longing for you, because the channels of water have dried up, and fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness.”]

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#19 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

Think about it....

In the 1st Century, the pouring out of the spirit came 1st, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem.
It was not that Jerusalem was destroyed then the spirt was poured, was it...

At the conclusion of the entire system of things its the same, 1st the spirit is poured out upon ALL flesh then follows the destruction of the harlot.
It is not that the harlot is destroyed then the spirit is poured, is it...

If we have mistakenly concluded that the 'Word is not in order' then really we are blind guides... Matthew 15:14

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#20 Post by johnamos2.0 » 1 week ago

This 'presence' or 'being alongside' has already been occurring for a select few since Pentecost 33CE, the powers of this coming system have already been 'tasted' by some.
[20 teaching+ them to observe+ all the things I have commanded YOU.+ And, look! I am with YOU+ all the days until the conclusion* of the system of things.”*+]

[20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name,+ there I am in their midst.”+]

No the presence/being alongside is related to his future coming at the time the dead and living are raised to him. That is not to say that he is not with them/us in spirit since 33 c.e. and until his coming as the above Scriptures show.

[23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits,+ afterward those who belong to the Christ at his presence. (coming)]

[15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence (coming) of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s+ voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.+ 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds+ to meet the Lord+ in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.+]

[2 However, brothers, respecting the presence (coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,]
According to Daniel, the Great Tribulation starts with the standing up or intervening of Michael.
No, according to Matthew, Luke, and Mark, Jesus comes AFTER the GT.
Just prior to this, the King of the North over powers the King of the South and invades the Land of Israel - according to Daniel 11:40-45.
Only after this has occurred does Michael stand.
Yes that is correct. This is what I pointed out in another post of reading what happens in chapter 11 to understand what is said in chapter 12. Invading the land of Israel is the time of distress and then/after Michael will stand up.

Here is a clearly way to read that account:

The Worst Trouble the World Has Ever Seen - The Message (MSG)
[Dan 12 1-2 “‘That’s when Michael, the great angel-prince, champion of your people, will step in. It will be a time of trouble, the worst trouble the world has ever seen.]

[Note- The 'it will be a time of trouble' is in reference to the KOTN's activity in chapter 11. If Jesus/Michael stepped in at the beginning of the GT to save his people then why would it be necessary to cut short the GT on account of his people.]

[Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short… 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
____________________________

Why would spirit be poured out first on a people that have to first be cleansed/punished :?: The time that the nations trample the holy city, Gog's attack, etc...is in connection to cleansing/punishing to bring about a repented people in order for spirit to be poured out on them.

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