Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

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Get out of her
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Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#1 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

THE GREAT TRIBULATION YOU SAY?! Aren't you overreaching just a bit here? I mean sure I'll admit that I'm constantly witnessing all this exposure and intrigue and hearing persistent reports of all this alleged chaos, panic and confusion among the elites of satan's world, but I'M NOT experiencing any of it! Everything seems like business as usual on all fronts from MY perspective! Clearly this cannot be the foretold "great tribulation."

If we were to think in terms of things such as the Ten Plagues of ancient Egypt as a symbolic representation of the foretold "Great Tribulation," with the subsequent destruction of Pharaoh and his armies at the Red Sea representing Armageddon, (which I would strongly suggest we do), we might also consider the following questions:

Have we perhaps overlooked the fact that basically the whole idea behind the ten plagues of ancient Egypt was to bring God's vengeance on the harsh Egyptian task masters and their minions, as opposed to the all the slaves that they had long been oppressing? In fact weren't the Hebrews almost completely unaffected by these plagues? Ultimately the only real effect the Hebrews ended up experiencing was the benefits of a rather massive pillaging or looting of their enemies followed with a complete deliverance from their oppressive control. (Ex 12:35, 36) In fact particularly with respect to the repentant and obedient remnant of God's rebellious people who would in this case have already performed a SPIRITUAL exodus (spiritual "Judeans" who obediently "fled to the mountains"?) (Mt 24:15, 16) from "the great city which in a SPIRITUAL sense is called Sodom and Egypt where their lord was also impaled," (Re 11:8) God had long ago promised the following thing in Revelation 3:10:

"Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep YOU from the hour of test that is coming upon the whole inhabited earth."

Have we perhaps overlooked the fact that a "harvest" of the "firstfruits" is identified as being synonymous with a "conclusion of a system of things" just as demonstrated also with the conclusion of the Jewish system of things in 70-74AD? (Mt 13:39) In fact even a general harvest basically qualifies as such since the moment that the shepherding class is re-appointed ON THE EARTH, the first thing that they always do is begin a PUBLIC ministry. (Mt 28:18, 19) You see if there is a "FIRST resurrection," (as in- harvest of the "firstfruits"), then obviously there is a SECOND one. *(Re 20:6) In the case of this particular prophetic drama here of the ten plagues of ancient Egypt, this public ministry or "general harvest" (more specifically its effects), was symbolically represented not only with the manner in which the Hebrews finally plundered the Egyptians of things like their silver and gold, but also with the way they now took a "VAST mixed company" out of Egypt WITH them! (Ex 12:38)

*{We want to understand that the primary meaning or significance attached to these resurrections is a figurative or spiritual one. In other words the main thrust here is with respect to the renewal of the marriage covenant between God and mankind. For the spirit anointed ones who qualify as "discreet virgins" on this final foretold occasion, this means exactly what the Apostle Paul foretold for them at 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; namely an instant transformation into "incorruptible and immortal" spirit beings without experiencing a literal fleshly death at all. With respect to the rest of mankind on the other hand, this means that all who now avail themselves of this final provision of salvation by "exercising faith" in it will now be recognized by God as among his people or "seed of the woman." (Joh 3:16) (Da 12:2, 3) This as always means that even if they now experience a fleshly death, they can expect a literal resurrection into a paradise earth as God recognizes them as alive regardless. (Joh 5:28, 29) (Lu 20:38) }

Have we perhaps forgotten that a primary facet of the great tribulation is the EXPOSURE of all the things that satan's political, religious, and economic system is REALLY all about? (Re 17:16) Have we utterly failed to discern the extremely sharp increase of exposure, chaos, confusion, and even consistent reports of panic among all the world's elites in just the past few years? (2 Pe 3:10)

Bear in mind that there is a prophetic pattern of "desolations" being delved out to all of God's ENEMIES, (as opposed to HIS people) and particularly those directly involved with the latest adulterous violation of his "woman" on each and every occasion there was an actual APPOINTING or RE-APPOINTING of genuine theocratic authority and power on the earth. (Zec 2:8) (Da 9:26, 27) For example we might recall not simply all the devastation the Egyptians suffered with the appointing of Moses and Aaron, but also all the desolations of the Canaanites which immediately followed the appointing of Joshua and Caleb. This is exactly why Jesus pointed out in Matthew 13:39 that a "harvest" (resurrection of the "firsfruits" or "discreet virgins") is actually SYNONOMOUS with a "conclusion of a system of things." Particularly in view of the fact that these desolations of satan's entire system of things always culminate in even outright literal "war," should not all the saber rattling we are now witnessing on even a global scale not indicate that we are about to enter even the FINAL PHASE of this great tribulation? This is not to suggest however that this would qualify as the final foretold Armageddon. Just as demonstrated also in the first century between 33 and 70CE, or even with the mass exodus of God's people out of ancient Egypt before the destruction of Pharaoh's armies at the Red Sea, there is always a GENERAL "harvest" or resurrection (mass conversion of the repentant ones) before God brings his full vengeance upon his enemies.

You see I can assure people that the timing of WW1 or the fact that it immediately followed the appointing of theocratic power and authority represented there in Revelation 11:11, 12 was no coincidence and PARTICULARLY in view of the fact that the 2,520 calculation assigned to the "seven times" had already pointed directly to that very year of 1914. However it should not be overlooked that there were actually TWO back to back apostasies of God's nation represented in that very same account. (Re 11:13) (Zec 14:5) This actually accounts for MANY things that would otherwise remain confusing and obscure to us, and among them is the fact that WW2 or yet ANOTHER "conclusion of a system of things" almost immediately followed the initial "day of Jehovah"! (Mt 13:39) (2 Th 2:2) Yes, it seems clear that there were "SEVEN" "days of Jehovah" (2 Th 2:2) that were foretold for the 2, 520 year time frame ALONE!

Once again we want to bear in mind however that just as demonstrated also in the first century, (after 33CE) an extremely powerful PUBLIC ministry is embarked upon by these newly appointed theocratic shepherds, and it is exactly this that now accounts for a GENERAL "harvest" (SECOND as opposed to "first resurrection") (Re 20:6) or a MASS exodus out of this figurative or "spiritual Egypt" which would include even that of a "vast mixed company." (Re 11:8) (Ex 12:38) In other words, regardless of how intensely things might soon heat up even from an actual military perspective at this time, the prophetic patterns strongly indicate that (as Jesus himself said), "the end is not yet." (Mr 13:7) These events would only mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Mt 24:9) Just as pointed out also there in verse 29 and 30, it would be "immediately after the tribulation of those days" that even "all the tribes of the earth" (yes the SAMARITAN or Ephraim/FLOCK entity or "TENS of thousands as opposed to merely "thousands") would now "SEE the sign of the son of man" and even begin "beating themselves in lamentation" upon witnessing the tremendous "power and glory" associated with this "coming." (Ge 48:19) (De 33:17) What exactly is being conveyed here in these verses here of Matthew?

Its important to understand that what would now be a completely NEW level of theocratic authority and power on the part of what would now be God's APPOINTED shepherding class as opposed to merely anointed, who up until this point possessed ONLY the authority to minister to their fellow anointed ones, would suddenly now begin a PUBLIC ministry that would make even the one that was launched in 33CE pale by comparison. Why? The scriptures make it exceedingly clear that on this final foretold occasion involving NOT the "seven times" or its accompanying "seven headed wild beast," but rather the "EIGHTH king" or "IMAGE of the wild beast," these newly appointed theocratic shepherds will no longer qualify merely as sinful and imperfect Apostles, but even PERFECT as well as "incorruptible and immortal" "kings and priests!" (1 Cor 15:51-53) (Re 5:9, 10) The manner in which Jesus himself embarked on a brief ministry to his followers AFTER his resurrection may very well comprise a prophetic picture of this event. We might recall that he would both materialize as well as dematerialize right in their midst while tending to their needs. What a very powerful public ministry this will be, and it is the tremendous success it will achieve that is now covered next right here in verse 30 of Matthew 24:
…"then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation…"

This is actually a very positive thing being portrayed here in prophetic symbolism. What's really being pictured here is a great measure of repentance on the part of the "great crowd" of "other sheep." Among the things they will be beating themselves up over will be on account of realizing that they had long been deceived into both viewing and even treating these very same shepherds as if they were the "apostates" that ones such as their "governing body" had always said they were. These theocratic shepherds for their part will NOT EVEN BEGIN to call them to account for this as they recognize that such treatment was simply part of the tests and trials that ALWAYS come with the "baptisms of holy spirit and fire" or refining and cleansing that the "holy ones" must "endure in these prophetic time frames. (Mt 3:11) (Re 14:12) Yes, what we are dealing with up until now would be the "splitting of the great city into three parts" or otherwise the destruction of a now "fallen" as opposed to "standing" Babylon the Great." (Re 16:19 18:2) (Da 7:4) Among the prophetic dramas that were used to prophetically typify these things was the destruction of the ancient city of Jericho. But that's another topic.

Agape love;
Sol

Kerry Huish
Posts: 411
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#3 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 years ago

Q. Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

A. No


Why can we say this?

Because anyone 'currently' spirit anointed is already tasting these powers of this system to come.
In saying 'to come' means that it is not yet here.

(Hebrews 6:4, 5) For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,

The GT starts with an outpouring of holy spirit upon ALL, not just upon a select few as we currenty behold.
When the spirit becomes operative upon a person in this way, they are also brought into judgment.

(Joel 2:28-32) After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said, The survivors whom Jehovah calls.”

There has been an ongoing partial fulfillment of this upon a select few since 33 AD

(1 Peter 4:17-19)  For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good.

Until the full number of brothers has been completed, only a select few are experiencing these 'coming' powers...

When the GT starts, the spirit is further poured out upon ALL, then and only then would the global judgment have began.

(Matthew 13:47-50) “Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. When it was full, they hauled it up onto the beach, and sitting down, they collected the fine ones into containers, but the unsuitable they threw away. That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.

(Matthew 25:31-33) “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

The GT is the time when God reveals himself and EVERYONE will have to have to know and EVERYONE will render an account...

(Micah 4:3) He will render judgment among many peoples And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away.. . .

(2 Thessalonians 1:6, 7) This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels

(Revelation 1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Happy is the one who responds to the spirits leading and finds safe passage out of judgment.

(Revelation 7:14-17) . . .“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”


Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Bobcat
Posts: 3840
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#4 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Interesting thread that I seemed to have missed when it came out.

My answer would be: No.

My reason would be: The "gathering of the kings and their armies to the place that is called Armageddon in Hebrew" has not yet occurred. According to Rev 16:15 this happens during the 6th bowl. It is during the 7th bowl that the "great earthquake" takes place (which I take as a synonym for the "great tribulation" of Rev 7:14 (which is also described in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet).


Bobcat

Get out of her
Posts: 1034
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#5 Post by Get out of her » 2 weeks ago

Daniel12 asks:
So is there going to be a great tribulation, or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?
In stark contrast to my initial post on this thread, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that a much more expanded and in depth consideration of this topic would be in order.

It is by no means a question of whether or not there will be a "great tribulation." We would do well to understand things such as the fact that this scriptural term has also been referred to throughout the Bible with OTHER expressions such as –"the breakdown of the daughter of my people," the "strikings" or "chastisings of the shepherd," and even "the pangs of distress upon a pregnant woman that she will by no means escape." (Jer 8:11) (Le 26:18, 23, 24) (Mt 26:31) (1 Th 5:3) Just as already pointed out also there in Leviticus however, the figurative "woman" in question here was foretold to experience "SEVEN" of these "births" or manifestations of genuine theocratic power and authority on the earth during the period identified as the "appointed times of the nations" ALONE"! (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) As ANY mother can testify, the process of giving birth is VERY "distressing"!

The "seven strikings of the shepherd" were in fact also referred to as "baptisms of holy spirit and FIRE," and particularly since the spiritual deaths that create the NEED for these rebirths disqualify people as belonging to Jehovah, rest assured it is no coincidence that these very testing and trialsome spiritual cleansings and rebirths THEMSELVES were prophetically pictured as something like a prideful Babylonian king or a leprous Syrian army chief experiencing "plunges into the Jordan River" precisely "SEVEN TIMES." (Mt 3:11) (Mal 3:2, 3) (Da 4:23, 32) (2 Ki 5:1, 10:14) Yes the great spiritual awakening we are considering on the part of King Nebuchadnezzar there in Daniel Chapter four after "seven times had passed over him" is simply among a seemingly endless stream of various ways the scriptures have symbolically represented the VERY SAME PHENOMENON found also in accounts like 2 King Chapter 5 or for that matter ones such as at Romans 11:25, 26 which are in fact DIRECT REFERENCES to this scriptural phenomenon:

"For I do not want you to be ignorant brothers of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel, until the full number of people of the nations comes in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved, and as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices out of Jacob." (Ro 11:25, 26)

Did we just now fail to grasp the SETTING we are considering here with these words of the Apostle Paul, and therefore the rather staggering IMPLICATIONS of these words?! These books and letters found in the New Testament were always written to fellow spiritual SHEPHERDS of the ones doing this writing! The time frame here was around the year 56 CE or otherwise during the period when mankind was experiencing the FIFTH of the "seven" foretold "births" of Jehovah's nation! If even the APOSTLES that existed during the greater portion of the first century would be experiencing a "dullness" of spiritual "sensibilities" in comparison to the theocratic shepherds of the Millennial Reign, or (as Paul says)-" the last trumpet," what would this imply with regard to the spiritual "sensibilities" of the completely "devastated" anointed "virgins" and "widows" that are currently anticipating the FINAL foretold birth of the kingdom! The "kingdom of the son of his love" was in FULL SWING in the year 56 CE! (Col 1:13) (Eze 38:8)

In other words, in comparison to what ones like the prophet Daniel foretold in connection with the theocratic shepherds of the Millennial Reign who would "shine like the brightness of the expanse,… like the stars to time indefinite," even the Christian Congregation of the first century that we are always championing in our discussions would be almost as if no spiritual cleansing and rebirth of Jehovah's nation had occurred AT ALL! (Da 12:1-3) (1 Cor 15:51-53) It would be as if the spiritual "leprosy" of this figurative Syrian army chief was not actually cleansed with ANY of his baptisms, until after he had completed ALL SEVEN of them! (2 Ki 5:14) But you see if the spiritual "prostitution" involved in a broken holy marriage covenant has once again reduced the anointed ones into completely "desolated" spiritual "widows and virgins," we can be absolutely CERTAIN that the "birth pangs" involved with transforming them into theocratic spiritual shepherds that would make even the first century APOSTLES pale by comparison would indeed be a "GREAT TRIBULATION"! (Isa 1:21) (Da 9:27b) (Re 8:1)

Bear in mind the complete "breakdown" of what a broken holy covenant had now reduced to kind of promiscuous "DAUGHTER of Jehovah's people" that Jeremiah was witnessing at the time of his writings was occurring well over two and a half MILLENNIUMS ago. (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) But when we realize that this figurative "woman" being spoken of here in chapter 15 was foretold to ultimately experience "SEVEN" of these births in the time frame of the "seven times" that foreign kings or world powers would be hosting God's people in a state of "captivity and exile" ALONE, we should be reminded of the reason why Jehovah always appoints two prophets or "witnesses" on the earth towards the end of these periods, just as he did with Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the case of the FIRST of these "seven" foretold settings. (Jer 15:9) (Da 4:23, 32)

Let's not forget that that if a broken holy marriage covenant results in a "divorcing" from Jehovah and transforms even the ANOINTED into a "leprous" FOREIGN entity, then would not a rather DISTINCT type of ministry now be required to once again "CLOTHE" or cover them once again with the blood atonement of the Christ? (Jer 3:8) (Mt 25:36) And if great spiritual famines or "food shortages" are always a part of these "tribulations," (not to mention LITERAL ones), do e imagine Jehovah would allow the REPENTANT ones to now STARVE to death spiritually? (Mt 25;35) Yes at least in the case of the ones who would be inclined to repent over the "apostasy" or even spiritual adultery that RESULTED in these "pangs of distress" that always precede ANOTHER foretold "birth" of Jehovah's kingdom or "day of Jehovah," our loving God has no intention of allowing them to remain in their "leprous" and foreign spiritual condition. (Joh 6:51) (Mt 3:1, 2) (Lu 21:11) (2 Th 2:1-4)

What we would do very well to understand here however is that during these foretold periods of a broken "holy marriage" or "kingdom covenant," when it comes to the "two witnesses" or "appointed slaves" that Jehovah lovingly and mercifully furnishes for the REPENTANT ones among the anointed, one of the primary OBJECTIVES of these two prophets is to humbly accept even ALL of this great reproach and humiliation upon THEMSELVES. (Re 11:3) (Mt 24:45) (La 1:1, 2, 4) (Isa 54:1-4) (Mt 25:1, 2) It is only in this manner that all the "guiltiness" and spiritual "leprosy" involved in this "sin of the priest" can be REMOVED from the earth by the priestly SACRIFICE of this "son of man." (Le 4:3, 10) (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) (Isa 53:3-5, 10-12) (Mt 20:28) (Eze 2:1) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12)

In other words, the tremendous GLORY, POWER, and HONOR that is at least LARGELY enjoyed by divinely appointed theocratic shepherds in the foretold settings of a BIRTH of Jehovah's kingdom is matched only by the tremendous HUMILIATIONS and REPROACHES that at least one or "TWO" of Jehovah's prophets must succeed in bearing when this same nation has experienced a spiritual DEATH! The trials and "TRIBULATIONS" involved with lovingly, persistently, and patiently CONTINUING to offer the spiritual "food" and "clothing" that Jesus' "brothers" so desperately need in these time frames to experience the next foretold BIRTH while they at the same time would generally prefer to CRUCIFY or "BEHEAD" these prophets is in fact the most pivotal PORTION of these foretold "chastisings" or "great tribulations." (Lu 9:9) With these thoughts in mind along with the fact that these "two witnesses" in accounts like Revelation 11 were foretold to appear on the earth also well AFTER the first century, did we just fail to take note of the scripture there in Ezekiel I cited in the previous paragraph?

Rest assured it is no coincidence that Ezekiel was one of the prophets that Jehovah could apply the term- "son of man" to. (Eze 4:1) We would do well to carefully consider the SETTING that the ministry of both himself and Jeremiah occurred in. ("two witnesses") It was one involving the great humiliations, reproaches and TRIBULATIONS that ALWAYS come from one of the foretold spiritual DEATHS of the "barren woman" as oppose to one of the "seven BIRTHS" she would experience. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 1:21 54:1-4 66:7, 8) This scriptural term is simply ANOTHER way the scriptures distinguish the "two witnesses" from the theocratic shepherds that exist on the earth AFTER a birth of God's nation. In other words this symbolic expression points to the fact that the specific ministry THEY are engaged in will soon result in another BIRTH of Jehovah's nation on the earth. However in stark contrast to the "DAUGHTER of Jehovah's people" that is always born from the spiritually adulterous relations involved in the BREAKING of the holy marriage covenant," the ministries that involve the RENEWING of these covenants and the "inaugurating" of them with blood always result in the birth of a "SON, a MALE who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod"! (Jer 8:11) (Re 12:5) This "son," now being "caught away to God and his throne" (even if more in a SYMBOLIC sense on occasion), is obviously at this point NOT a man, but is nonetheless a "son OF man." At the same time however, he is also now simultaneously a "son of GOD." Any and all of the "body of the Christ" who would now REMAIN on the earth for a time as genuine theocratic shepherds of the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant would now only be "adopted" as such a "son" upon remaining faithful until their fleshly death. (Ro 8:23) (1 Cor 12:12)

In the case of Jeremiah and Ezekiel on this FIRST of the "seven" occasions these foretold "plantings and harvests" of the holy nation would be associated with "captivity and exile" to "seven" FOREIGN "kings" or world powers, the spiritual death in this case was due to the unfaithful or even adulterous conduct of "king Jehoiakim" and the manner in which his actions resulted in Jehovah's "woman" crawling into bed with Pharaoh Necho of ancient Egypt. (Ge 41:22-24) (1 Cor 15:23) (2 Ki 23:31-35) (Re 17:9, 10) Compare (Jer 1:3 3:8) The first BIRTH by contrast foretold for these "seven times" occurred with the divine appointing of the Prophet Daniel and his three "Hebrew companions" inside ancient Babylon. (Da 2:47-49) Just as prophetically pictured with Joseph AND the Pharaoh he served under in ancient Egypt, Daniel and his companions would now serve alongside an "anointed shepherd" or "servant of JEHOVAH" by the name of NebuchadRezzar (as opposed to NebuchadNezzar) as GENUINE theocratic shepherds of God's people until the time that the holy covenant Jeremiah and Ezekiel had assisted Jehovah with renewing would be violated AGAIN. (Jer 25:9) (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 5:1-4) Yes, Jehovah ALWAYS assigns a new name to someone he takes ownership of; just as a man does when he takes a wife. (Ge 17:5, 15) (Re 2:17) The "DIVORCE" that always ensues after spiritual adultery has been committed is no longer in effect until if or when this spiritual "harlotry" is committed again. (Jer 3:8) (Re 17:1)

Yes we very much need to appreciate that this spiritual "prostitution" violates the holy "COVENANT" that always establishes even the very EXISTENCE of Israel on the earth, and by extension Jehovah's TRUE people! (Isa 1:21) (Eze 23:1-4) This is the very REASON that even in the case of the repentant ones among the ANOINTED, as opposed to something intended for spiritual Jews or Christians, the "baptism of holy spirit and fire" now required in these very tragic settings to cleanse them from their spiritual "leprosy" is identified in the scriptures as being experienced by something like a "king of NINEVEH" or a "SYRIAN ARMY CHIEFTAIN"! (Jon 3:6) (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) If we are actually true CHRISTIANS in these times in which we are eagerly anticipating another "birth" or "coming of the kingdom" and its corresponding "bowl of the anger of God," ("Armageddon") there would of course never be any NEED for one of these rather "fiery" spiritual cleansings or "baptisms" always associated with it. (Mt 3:11) (Mal 3:2, 3) In other words even coming to learn and genuinely confront our true identity in these prophetic time frames is a "GREAT TRIBULATION" that "few" even among the anointed in these settings will "discreetly" navigate or overcome! (Mt 22:14 25:1, 2) The vast majority even of the ANOINTED ones in these time frames are actually "STUMBLED" even over just this one challenge ALONE! (1 Pe 2:8) (Mt 13:57) But are we really grasping the points here?

Among the things that make these "birth pangs" or "tribulations" involved in another foretold manifestation of Jehovah's kingdom on the earth so very "GREAT" or challenging is the veritable OCEANS of "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrines" that always IMMEDIATELY begin flooding the ENTIRE EARTH the MOMENT that these "holy covenants" are violated with spiritual adultery on the part of the anointed ones they are formed with. It is as if what WAS a great river of life giving water that Jehovah was furnishing through ones like the prophet Joseph and the very benevolent Pharaoh he served with is now suddenly a great river of BLOOD, and what WERE up until that moment priceless scriptural truths out of the mouth of Jehovah are now suddenly much better describes as "unclean inspired expressions that look like FROGS coming out of the mouth of the dragon, the wild beast and the false prophet." (Re 11:6 16:13) (Ex 7:19 8:6)

Yes the great "PLAGUES" involved in the prophetic drama we are currently considering here in ancient Egypt and which are in fact well reflected and elaborated on also in Revelation are simply yet ANOTHER way in which these foretold "great tribulations" have been illustrated or prophetically pictured for us throughout the scriptures. Genuinely or divinely appointed theocratic shepherds have the "AUTHORITY" and POWER to change such divine blessings into CURSINGS for the reason that that they are placed in a POSITION in which upon "LEAVING the holy covenant," a "DISGUSTING THING" is immediately "PUT IN PLACE" of what now HAD BEEN an anointing of JEHOVAH as opposed to a counterfeit substitution from the "serpent." (Re 12:14) (Da 11:30-32) (1 Cor 3:16, 17) In other words the earth is now once again dealing with the ANTICHRIST as opposed to the CHRIST. (Strong's #473 #5547) Another "GREAT TRIBULATION" has begun, and rest assured it is no coincidence they are associated with "SEVEN seals, SEVEN trumpet blasts, SEVEN bowls of the anger of God, and even "SEVEN kings" or world powers. (Re 16:11 7:9, 10)

But even ASIDE from the extremely "desolating" effects of this great river of spiritual "blood" or even "vomit" in of ITSELF, the challenge now of completely OVERCOMING or DISCARDING all the false teachings we have been programmed with our entire lives with is ALSO a great test or "tribulation." (Da 11:31) (Isa 28:8) (Mt 15:9) For this very reason the teachings of the "son of man" that ALWAYS arrives in the LATTER part of these "Great tribulations" sound like a FOREIGN LANGUAGE or even a "NEW song" to the anointed "virgins" and "widows." (Eze 33:32, 33) (Re 14:3) But you see the exact MANNER in which these "great tribulations" were "typified" for us in the prophetic drama of the "ten plagues" should help us understand that WE OURSELVES have ALREADY been experiencing the devastating effects of the FINAL foretold "great tribulation" for MANY YEARS NOW. The ONLY part of this phenomenon that we have NOT YET experienced during this "LAST" foretold "trumpet" is precisely what is being pictured with the very LAST of these '"ten plagues." (1 Cor 15:51-53) What exactly is this?

Jehovah willing, let us by all means pick up the discussion on this particular point beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

Kerry Huish
Posts: 411
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#6 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

Answer is still NO.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#7 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

by Bobcat
My reason would be: The "gathering of the kings and their armies to the place that is called Armageddon in Hebrew" has not yet occurred. According to Rev 16:15 this happens during the 6th bowl. It is during the 7th bowl that the "great earthquake" takes place (which I take as a synonym for the "great tribulation" of Rev 7:14 (which is also described in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet).
If you concluded that the GT has not began because the kings have not been gathered together for Armageddon, then does that mean that you think the GT is Armageddon?

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#8 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

by Kerry Huish
The GT starts with an outpouring of holy spirit upon ALL
(Joel 2:28-32) After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh,
NO, the GT does not start with the outpouring of holy spirit. In Joel's account the calamity on God's people brought on by the Northerner is what the GT is referring to. It is not until after that calamity (GT) that spirit is poured out.

(Joel 2:28-32) After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said, The survivors whom Jehovah calls.”

After what :?:

Kerry Huish
Posts: 411
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#9 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
by Kerry Huish
The GT starts with an outpouring of holy spirit upon ALL
(Joel 2:28-32) After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh,
NO, the GT does not start with the outpouring of holy spirit. In Joel's account the calamity on God's people brought on by the Northerner is what the GT is referring to. It is not until after that calamity (GT) that spirit is poured out.
We shall see...

The Apostle Peter quoted those words of Joel in a partial fulfilment @ Pentecost.

Acts 2:14-21

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Bobcat
Posts: 3840
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

#10 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
by Bobcat
My reason would be: The "gathering of the kings and their armies to the place that is called Armageddon in Hebrew" has not yet occurred. According to Rev 16:15 this happens during the 6th bowl. It is during the 7th bowl that the "great earthquake" takes place (which I take as a synonym for the "great tribulation" of Rev 7:14 (which is also described in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet).
If you concluded that the GT has not began because the kings have not been gathered together for Armageddon, then does that mean that you think the GT is Armageddon?

Hi John,

For the record, Rev 16:15 in your quote of my post is a typo. It should have read Rev 16:12.

Rev 16:12 begins the pouring out of the 6th bowl. The 7th bowl is poured out starting at Rev 16:17. Thus, the action described in Rev 16:16 happens during the 6th bowl. (The aorist tense of the verb, "gathered ... together," also suggests that conclusion.)

But regarding your question, the "great tribulation" (which I take the "great earthquake" of Rev 16:18 to be the same thing), but "the great tribulation" is an event. "Armageddon" is a place. And according to the sequence presented in Rev 16, the kings and their armies are gathered to that place (Greek topos, from where we get the English word "topography") before the "great earthquake" begins.

And before you ask, no, I do not believe "Armageddon" is a literal place on a map. It has symbolic meaning.

To put that another way, Rev 16:16 is to the great earthquake, what Mt 24:15 was to the first century "great tribulation." The scales of size are different. Rev 16:16 is worldwide; Mt 24:15 was very local.

I'll leave it at that because I am going to be covering that eventually in my other thread.

Incidentally, in case you are interested, here is a thread on the origin of the term "Armageddon."


Bobcat

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