John, you seem a bit paranoid. YOU are the first person to mention 1914 in this thread. But if anyone is interested in how significant 1914 AD is to God, I would invite you to read this post (and this one also, which are both in the same thread).To Bobcat
Well , I know you might not think I know anything about Chronology, but for the sake of anyone reading here who wants to know the truth about 1914 being a pivotal date, and 607 bce, the starting point....
But yes, 607 BCE has been, using your terminology, 'attacked' in this thread.
As far as history goes, I believe it is safe to say Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BCE, is that not so?
539 is the Cardinal starting point most all Biblical Dates are reckoned from?
Well, then, looking at 2 Chronicles 36:15-23, and the following account of Ezra 1, where the Jews bought Cyrus the inspired writings of Jeremiah and Isaiah, where Cyrus was named 200 years before his birth as the prophetic liberator, (see Isa. 44:24-28)...
And we have recorded historical writings, of the meeting with Cyrus in Ezra, where the Jews show him God used him to punish Babylon and free the Jews after 70 years..... just as Jeremiah prophesied ( Jer. 25:10-12.. and also see Leviticus 26 where it was foretold there would be 7 times and also the land would pay back its sabbaths by being subjected to a foreign kingdom 900 years before it occurred.)
So after assembling materials, go[l]d, silver, and food, an army specifically to empower this 70 year prophecy ON THE NOSE!
Up to this point in your post I agree with you. Yes, I agree that the 70 year prophecy was fulfilled, as you said, "ON THE NOSE". But here is where we begin to differ.
You cite 2Ch 36:15-21. Specifically, 2Ch 36:21 is where the 70 years is referred to:
Daniel also mentions the 70 years, and also attributes it to Jeremiah:The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah. (2Ch 36:21 NIV)
Both of these verses correctly attribute the prophecy about the "70 years" to Jeremiah. So where does Jeremiah speak about "70 years"? And to what was Jeremiah referring in connection with the 70 years?In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. (Dan 9:2 ESV)
There are only two places in Jeremiah where he refers to these 70 years. And they are both referring to the same thing:
Here is where we differ John. You apply the 70 years to Jewish exile. But these verses in Jeremiah apply them to the length of the rule of the Babylonians. They are related to the Jewish exile. But they are not the length of the Jewish exile. They are the length of Babylonian rule over Israel and "these nations". According to Jer 25:11 and Jer 29:10 the exile would only end after Babylonian rule ended."This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jer 25:11 NIV)
"For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place." (Jer 29:10 ESV)
or as the NET puts it:
"For the LORD says, 'Only when the seventy years of Babylonian rule are over will I again take up consideration for you. Then I will fulfill my gracious promise to you and restore you to your homeland." (Jer 29:10 NET)
As you correctly pointed out, Babylonian rule ended in 539 BCE. There is no dispute about that. So that leads us to the next logical question: When did Babylonian rule begin? More specifically, according to Jer 25:11, the 70 years of servitude to Babylon would be, not just for Judah, but also over "these nations." So the 70 years is not even necessarily the whole length of the dominance of the Babylonian empire, but refers to Babylonian dominance over Israel and "these nations". Who are included in "these nations"? Jer 25:9 says:
Judah and "these nations" would collectively refer to what is now called The Levant. But back to our now modified question: 'When did Babylonian rule over the Levant begin? Here is what Wikipedia (here) says about when Babylon overtook Assyria:So I, the LORD, affirm that I will send for all the peoples of the north and my servant, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. I will bring them against this land [i.e. the Jewish nation] and its inhabitants and all the nations that surround it. (Jer 25:9a NET)
Can we narrow that, "between 612 BC and 605 BC", a little further? This page (under the 1st sub-title) on OT history says this:Under Nabopolassar, a previously unknown Chaldean chieftain, Babylon escaped Assyrian rule, and in an alliance with Cyaxares, king of the Medes and Persians together with the Scythians and Cimmerians, finally destroyed the Assyrian Empire between 612 BC and 605 BC. Babylon thus became the capital of the Neo-Babylonian (sometimes and possibly erroneously called the Chaldean) Empire.
So if one were to use 612 (the fall of Nineveh) as the date for when Babylon replaced Assyria as the dominant Biblical world power, then, 609 BC is a very conceivable date for Babylonian influence in the Levant (Judah and "these nations"). Historically, it was only at the death of Josiah in 609 that Babylonian influence became a worry for Israel. Israel briefly became a vassal to Egypt after Josiah's death. But the purpose of that Egyptian vassalage was to receive protection from expanding Babylonian influence. Using 609 BC as a starting point for Babylonian influence in the Levant, this would make the servitude of Judah and "these nations" to Babylon, collectively, right at 70 years, or, from 609 to 539. Just as Jeremiah foretold. Judah officially became a Babylonian vassal state around 605 BC. So Judah itself actually served the king of Babylon for about 66 years. But that is really no problem, because the prophecy said that the Jewish nation and "these nations" would collectively serve Babylon for 70 years. Which, collectively, they did. Just like you said, right "ON THE NOSE."The end of the Assyrian Empire unfolded largely during the reign of Josiah, and his death in 609 occurred as the Assyrian Empire was breathing its last. So in a real sense the era of the reign of Josiah marked the transition between these two empires [i.e. Assyria and Babylon].
And what about when 2Ch 36:21 said, "The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested"? When one uses 587 BC as the date for the fall of Jerusalem and when the land was depopulated, well, look at what happens to the math:
I simply copied this from the opening post of this thread. But the quoted material itself is from a footnote in Gentile Times Reconsidered.Two More Examples
Another couple of examples to show that the 587 dating of Jerusalem's fall works best can be seen from footnote 37 on pp.222-23 of Gentile Times Reconsidered (here):
The two examples here would be (1.) The fact that the land was mostly depopulated from 587 to 538 (i.e. 49 years) equates with the Mosaic Law's did not allow selling off ancestral property for more than 49 years. And (2.) If one counts from 930 (the break in the kingdom) as the start of failing to observe the Sabbath year provision, then, the 49 years of exile (from 587 to 538) equates with will the Sabbath years that had to be paid back by the Israelites. (2Ch 36:21 NET) The year 587 (rather than 607) fits quite nicely in the fulfillment of Mosaic Law provisions.The actual length of the land’s sabbath rest was 49 years, from the final desolation and depopulation in 587 B.C.E. until the return of the exiles in 538. Perhaps it is just a coincidence, but this was also the maximal period during which a Hebrew could be deprived of the proprietorship of his ancestral inheritance, according to the law of land tenure. If he became so poor that he had to sell his land, it could not be sold beyond reclaim. If it could not be bought back, the purchaser had to return it to him at the next jubilee.—Leviticus 25:8-28.
If the 49 years of sabbath rest corresponded to the exact number of sabbatical years that had been neglected by the Israelites, the whole period of violation of the law would be 49 x 7 = 343 years. If this period extended to 587 B.C.E., its beginning would date from about 930 B.C.E. Interestingly, modern chronologers who have carefully examined both the Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence, usually date the division of the kingdom to 930 B.C.E. or thereabouts. (F. X. Kugler, for example, has 930, E. R. Thiele and K. A. Kitchen 931/30, and W. H. Barnes 932 B.C.E.) As this national disaster resulted in a massive break away from the temple cult in Jerusalem by a majority of the people, it is not unreasonable to think that an extensive neglect of the sabbatical years also dates from this time.
Using 587 as the fall of Jerusalem and the depopulating of the land (which has a huge amount of evidence to support it, just like 539), and 538 as the year of Cyrus' decree freeing the Jews, you get 49 years. 49 is the exact number of sabbath years that would have been missed starting with the split in the kingdom in 931 BC (when Jeroboam abandoned the Mosaic Law and the sabbath year arrangement; 931/30 - 587 = 344/343; 344/343 / 7 = 49.)
Moreover, the Law only allowed a person's ancestral property to be deprived for 49 years. After that it had to be returned to him. And thus, the nation was removed from its property for 49 years (587 to 538). After which it was returned, just as the Law stated.
But when you use 607, you deprive Jehovah of the credit for sticking so closely to the provisions of the Law. You don't want to do that, do you, John? The only reason you stick to 607 is because you want to stick to 1914 AD, and 607 just happens to be the date you get when you count back 2520 years from 1914. So that is your only basis for 607. It makes your contrived math work. There is nothing historical about the date 607. Its only value is to make people think that you know how to do math. You deprive Jehovah of the credit in all these things above so that you can look like you know how to do math and to make your pet 2520 year doctrine work. That is what 607 really boils done to. (Contrast Rom 3:4)
On the subject of whether I think you know chronology: I am not concerned about how much chronological knowledge you have. I'll leave that for others to judge. But, like you, much of what I included in this post was for others who might read it. We've been over this topic before and I don't hold out much hope of persuading you.
I will say this, though: Your posting and/or writing style leaves a little to be desired. Especially when you want to take on someone's viewpoint in a rather technical topic. Your style is a bit rambling and not particularly precise. Which is your choice, of course. But that style doesn't work too well when you are trying to tackle a technical topic like chronology. That's my opinion of course. So take it of leave it as you see fit.