The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

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Bobcat
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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#201 Post by Bobcat » 5 months ago

Some links I came across related to 607 vs 587 issue:

A chart showing timelines of Hebrew kings: Here.

A YouTube video on the subject:




A two part series from the Beroean Pickets site:

An online copy of Carl Olaf Jonsson's Gentile Times Reconsidered: Here.
(CI had a link to another PDF of this. If I can find it I will place the link here also.)


Bobcat

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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#202 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

A post from a thread on Reddit AcademicBiblical that discusses some of the differences between the MT, LXX and SP regarding the dating/chronology of some of the patriarchs: Here.

Linked here because there are some references in the discussion that I want to have cataloged. It is related to this thread in this post (which is post # 60) thru post # 68, & post # 70.


Bobcat

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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#203 Post by Bobcat » 3 months ago

A post from poster Vidqun (from an offsite forum) that has some historical data that I wanted to catalog for possible future reference:
The discrepancy in Daniel and Josephus, part and parcel of the Society's arguments, is easily explained.

Berossus vs. Josephus: Later writers quote Berossus as saying that after the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar extended Babylonian influence into all Syria-Palestine and, when returning to Babylon (in his accession year, 605 BCE), he took Jewish captives into exile, confirming that the 70 year period, as a period of servitude to Babylon, would begin in 605 BCE. That would mean that the 70-year period would expire in 535 BCE. Berossus also insists that Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his accession year. No cuneiform documents support this. Yet, the book of Daniel (1:1-3) mentions a minor deportation in the third year of Jehoiakim, which would correspond to the first year of Nebuchadnezzar (cf. Jer. 25:1; 46:2). As a minor deportation, it is not surprising that it does not feature on the list of Jeremiah 52:28-30.

The Jewish historian Josephus respected Berossus. However, he states that in the year of the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar would conquer all of Syria-Palestine “excepting Judea,” thus contradicting Berossus and conflicting with the claim that 70 years of Jewish servitude began in Nebuchadnezzar’s accession year.—Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews X, vi, 1 [10.86]. Furthermore, Josephus elsewhere describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and then says that “all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews X, ix, 7 [10.184]). He pointedly states that “our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus” (Josephus, Against Apion I, 19 [1.132]). Here he shares the misconception of a later editor and/or redactor of the book of Daniel, “fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years” (cf. Dan. 9:2).[1] The same goes for the second-century (CE) writer Theophilus of Antioch who believed the 70 years would commence with the destruction of the temple after Zedekiah had reigned 11 years. As seen, Jeremiah applied the seventy years to the Judahites’ Babylonian servitude, and not to the desolation of the land.


[1] Devastations vs. reproach. In the OG we have ὀνειδισμός, meaning “reproach” (singular). See NETS. This is viewed as an error in the transmission: Jer. 25:9 καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν and (I turn them) into a disgrace ולחרפות is read for MT ולחרבת and (I will turn them) into desolations. However, as seen, Dan. 9:2 is not drawn from Jer. 29:10, but Jer. 25:9-12. Here it could mean “reproach, disgrace, insult” (cf. Jer. 18:16; 19:8; Ezek. 5:13, 14). Specifically Jer. 25:9וְלִשְׁרֵקָ֔ה וּלְחָרְב֖וֹת עוֹלָֽם , “and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.” LXX καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν, ולחֶרְפַּת. See BHS footnote. KBLex, in accordance with the textcritical note suggests an emendation to לְחֶרְפַּת (“as a disgrace”). See J. Lust, E. Eynikel & K. Hauspie (2003). A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint: Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart. According to secular chronology, Jerusalem did not lie desolate for seventy years, but her reproach and humiliation could have started with Jehoiakim’s three year servitude, completing Jeremiah’s seventy year cycle (2 Kings 24:1, 2; cf. Is. 25:9, 11).

Bobcat

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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#204 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

I added a reference to Deut 11:3-4 (regarding the pharaoh of the exodus, and whether he died at the Red Sea) to the notes section (# 2) of this post. (If you use Chrome browser, this link may take you directly to that part of the post.)


Bobcat

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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#205 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

A link to a PDF of Josephus' Against Apion: Here. The link actually opens the PDF at the place where Josephus says the Temple lie in ruins for 50 years following its destruction by the Babylonians in 587 BCE.

Note the footnote at the bottom of the page that corrects Josephus' "fifty years" to its more accurate 49 years.

This has been cross-linked to the first post in this thread (the "OP"): Here.

This is related to the OP in two places:
(1) Carl Olaf Jonsson discusses the significance of the 49 years in his Gentile Times Reconsidered which is referenced here in the OP. (If you use Chrome browser, this link should take you directly to the relevant section of the OP. Otherwise, it will take you to the start of the OP. Look for the sub-title, Two More Examples.)

(2) Note # 5 towards the bottom of the OP also cites this Against Apion reference. (If you use Chrome browser, this link should take you directly to Note # 5.)

Bobcat

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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#206 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Seventy Years in Biblical Prophecy


Introduction

The purpose of this post is to address all the occurrences of seventy year prophecies that are in the Bible. Rather than rewrite what has already been researched on these prophecies, I will make hyperlinks to the discussion of each of these (with the exception of Isa 23:15-17) in the book, The Gentile Times Reconsidered. (Referred to from here on as GTR.)

Using these links, the reader may read the extensive research that can be found there, to whatever extent he or she wishes, and at his or her own leisure.

Also of concern in this post is whether any of these prophecies overlap. (For which, see poster ctron's thread on overlapping seventy year prophecies here.)

The sub-titles below will address the following Bible passages and topics in this order:
1. Isaiah 23:15-17 (Concerning Tyre)

2. Jeremiah 25:10-12 & Jeremiah 29:10 (Concerning Babylon)

3. 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 & Daniel 9:1-2 (Where the writers cite Jeremiah)

4. Zechariah 1:7-12 & Zechariah 7:1-5 (Concerning the restored Jews)

5. How Jeremiah and Zechariah Overlap

6. Additional Points of Interest (Related research and links)

1. Isaiah 23:15-17

Isaiah 23 is "an oracle about Tyre." (Isa 23:1) A good part of the prophecy describes how Tyre was the center of trade in the Middle East. (Isa 23:2) But a calamity from God was about to befall Tyre. (Isa 23:8, 9) "At that time" (when Tyre is dealt with by Yahweh) "Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years." (Isa 23:15)

Describing what historically befell Tyre, Constable's Notes states:
God’s agent in the destruction of Tyre was first Assyria, then Babylonia, and finally Greece. Tiglath-pileser of Assyria set up a military governor in Tyre in 738 B.C., and his successors imposed escalating restraints on the city because it stubbornly resisted foreign control. Alexander the Great finally wiped the city into the sea in 332 B.C. leaving it uninhabitable. Here Isaiah pointed to Assyria as the power God would use to cut back the influence of Tyre. Tyre came under attack at least five times from Isaiah’s day until its end. It’s invaders were Sennacherib (705-701 B.C.), Esarhaddon (679-671 B.C.), Nebuchadnezzar (585-573 B.C.), Artaxerxes III Ochus (343 B.C.), and Alexander (332 B.C.). Assyria had already done to the Chaldeans what the prophet foretold it would do to Tyre. Sargon II attacked Babylon in 710 B.C., and Sennacherib destroyed it in 689 B.C.

There is a relationship between this prophecy about Tyre in Isaiah 23 and the prophecies in Jeremiah and Zechariah. Writing about this on a StackExchange thread, a writer says:
God through his prophet Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
22 "And all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon and the kings of the coastlands which are beyond the sea; 27 “You shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, “Drink, be drunk, vomit, fall and rise no more because of the sword which I will send among you.”’ (Jeremiah 25:22, 27 NASB)
Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will be forgotten. True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"​, the Babylonian Empire, the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial and commercial power.

The prophecy of Jeremiah says:
8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9 behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 ‘Then it will be when seventy years are completed I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation,’ declares the Lord, ‘for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it an everlasting desolation. 13 I will bring upon that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book which Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations."

14 "For many nations and great kings will make slaves of them, even them; and I will recompense them according to their deeds and according to the work of their hands.)’”15 For thus the Lord, the God of Israel, says to me, “Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it. 16 They will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them.”17 Then I took the cup from the Lord’s hand and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it:" (Jeremiah 25:8-17 NASB)
Tyre , comes out from under Babylonian domination, and becomes a satrapy of the Medo-Persian Empire under, the King "Cyrus the Great." Cyrus is a tolerant ruler and allows Tyre to pursue her former activities to become a world commercial center, and compares her to a prostitute: "Then she will go back to her harlot’s wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth." (Isaiah 25:17b)
15b At the end of seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot: 16 Take your harp, walk about the city, O forgotten harlot; Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs, That you may be remembered. 17 It will come about at the end of seventy years that the Lord will visit Tyre. Then she will go back to her harlot’s wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms [a]on the face of the earth. (Isaiah 23:15b-17 NASB)

Will Tyre succeed? Yes, Zechariah 9:3 says:
3 "For Tyre built herself a fortress And piled up silver like dust, And gold like the mire of the streets. (Zechariah 9:3 NASB)

Why does God allow Tyre to succeed? The prophecy of Isaiah says: "her harlot’s wages will be set apart to the Lord". God maneuvers matters so that it is used for the purpose of the will of the LORD-GOD.
18 "Her gain and her harlot’s wages will be set apart to the Lord; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the Lord." (Isaiah 23:18 NASB)

The people of Tyre assist the Israelites that return from their captivity in Babylon, by supplying them with cedar timbers for rebuilding the temple. They also resume trade with the city of Jerusalem.​ (Ezra 3:7; Nehemiah 13:16.)

Incidentally, and as an aside, there are numerous words, phrases and ideas in Isaiah 23 that also correspond to the description of Babylon the Great in Revelation 18. But that is beyond the scope of this post.


2. Jeremiah 25:10-12 & Jeremiah 29:10

The prophecy in Jeremiah 25:10-12 prominently features the kingdom of Babylon. But there are other nations, including the kingdom of Judah, who are directly affected by what the prophecy says will happen. The prophecy gives a seventy year span of time during which nations in the Levant, including the Jews, would have to serve the king of Babylon.
This link will take you to the main discussion in GTR that describes how and when that was fulfilled. (Depending on how fast your internet connection is, this link may take a few seconds. It will load the PDF and then turn to the appropriate page.)

The prophecy in Jeremiah 29:10 also relates to the kingdom of Babylon and what will happen to it after its seventy year grant of dominance is finished. There is also an issue concerning whether the text should be translated as "for Babylon" or "at Babylon" that is addressed.
This link will take you to that portion of GTR where this is discussed.

3. 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 & Daniel 9:1-2

2 Chronicles 36:20-23 and Daniel 9:1-2 are the two places in the Bible where the seventy years from the book of Jeremiah are cited as references. As you will see in the GTR discussions of these verses, they are sometimes referenced by those supporting the WT's view of a 607 BCE destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. GTR addresses all these issues.
This link will take you to the discussion of 2 Chronicles 36:20-23.

This link will take you to the discussion of Daniel 9:1-2.

This link will take you to additional discussion of these two passages in the appendix of the book.

Post # 19 in this thread is an example of how 2Ch 36:20-23 is used to support the 607 BCE destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. This is exactly how WT uses it also. Post # 21 has my reply to that argument which is basically how the issue is addressed in GTR.

4. Zechariah 1:7-12 & Zechariah 7:1-5

Both Zechariah 1:7-12 and Zechariah 7:1-5 refer to "these seventy years" in connection with what happened to the, by then, repatriated Jews in the days of the prophet Zechariah. Both of these passages give a date reference in connection with Persian king Darius Hystaspes (c. 522-486 BCE; Zech 1:1; 7:1), as well as referring to two fasts the restored Jews were holding to. (Zech 7:5) These reference points are enough clues to date what "these seventy years" are referring to.
This link will take you to the discussion of Zechariah 1:7-12 in GTR.

This link will take you to the discussion of Zechariah 7:1-5.

And additional discussion of these verses occurs here.

5. How Jeremiah and Zechariah Overlap

If you familiarized yourself with the sub-title above on Zechariah you will see that those two passages provide a sort-of backdoor approach to proving that Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 587 BCE.

With that understanding, it is possible now to lay out the overlap between the seventy years of Jeremiah and "these seventy years" referred to in Zechariah. The overlap would look something like this:

. . . . . . . . . . |<-----------------Overlap------------------>|
. . . . . . . . . . 587 BCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 539 BCE

|<--------------------------------------------------------------->|
609 BCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 539 BCE (70 years for Babylon - Jeremiah)

. . . . . . . . . . |<------------------------------------------------------------->|
. . . . . . . . . . 587 BCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 517 BCE ("these 70 years" - Zechariah)

. . . . . . . . . . |<------------------------------------------------>|
. . . . . . . . . . 587 BCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 538 BCE (Josephus' 50/49 years)

See the link to Against Apion and the footnote that corrects the 50 years to 49 in post # 205 in this thread.

Post # 36 in this thread has a year-by-year breakdown of the kings of Babylon starting from Nabonidus and going backwards to Nebuchadnezzar. See also "Additional Note # 1 below for a similar chart in GTR.

6. Additional Points of Interest
1. There is a really good chart in GTR in the appendix that overlays the years of Babylonian rulers, the years of Judean kings, and secular years, all in one chart. It can be found starting here. Discussion about the tables actually starts at page 345 in the book. The tables start on page 350.

2. Post # 205 in this thread shows where the Josephus Against Apion citation is used in the OP of this thread.

3. Just for comparison, the first post in this thread posits this breakdown of the 390 & 40 days/years of Ezekiel chapter 4:
|<----40---->|<-----------------------------------390----------------------------------------->|
968 BCE . . .928 BCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 538 BCE

968 BCE = Solomon marries Egyptian princess, start of his apostasy
928 BCE = Jereboam sets up calf worship in 10 tribe kingdom
538 BCE = End of 390+40 years; Cyrus frees Jews

4. See post # 208 below for a link to Tadua's review of the 2021 Regional Convention video on Daniel. The review has some very useful chronological discussion and a chart presentation towards the bottom of the page.


As I find additional related points of interest I will include them here.

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#207 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

The 2021 WT Regional Convention on Saturday morning makes mention of Jonah's visiting Nineveh and the surprising repentance of the Ninevites. The talk describes how Jonah didn't expect the Ninevites to repent, but that God knew their hearts. All this is true, but ...

What is also surprising is how WT's corrupted chronology prevents the WT from knowing that the Ninevites were already primed for repentance before the arrival of Jonah.

One can read about the details in the OP of this thread: Here. If you use Chrome browser the link may take you directly to the appropriate part of the post. Otherwise, look down in the post to the sub-title, An Example Showing How Non-WT Dating Works Better.


Bobcat

Notes:

1. As an additional reference to Assyria's condition when Jonah arrived to announce pending destruction, consider what the NAC-Amos, Obadiah, Jonah commentary (Billy K. Smith & Frank S. Page) says about the condition of Nineveh and the Assyrian Empire in the years leading up to Jonah's arrival:
Given the knowledge of Jonah's general period of ministry, we can ascertain that the story occurred during a time of Assyrian weakness. In the first half of the eighth century B.C., especially between the death of Adad-nirari III (810-783 B.C.) and the crowning of Tiglath-Pileser III (745-727 B.C.), Assyria was fighting to defend itself against the Arameans and Urartians. The Assyrian Eponym Chronicles records that Assyria's troubles were aggravated by famine (in 765 and 759 B.C. and perhaps the years between) and internal revolts (763-760 and 746 B.C.), all of which explains the "increasing impotence of the Assyrian monarchs towards the middle of the eighth century BC."

According to G. Roux, "for thirty-six years (781-745 B.C.) Assyria was practically paralysed." W. W. Hallo observes that "even the central provinces maintained only a tenuous loyalty to Assyria, for the various governors ruled in virtual independence." This could explain the otherwise unknown expression "king of Nineveh" (rather than "king of Assyria" found elsewhere) in Jon 3:6. Nineveh was at this time virtually the extent of the king's domain. It also could explain the unusual phrase in Jon 3:7, "By the decree of the king and his nobles." As J. P. N. Lawrence has demonstrated, the precarious position of the king may have necessitated his acknowledging in his decree the power and influence of surrounding provinvial governors."

The Chronicle also mentions that during the reign of Ashur-dan III (771-754 B.C.) there was a full eclipse of the sun (in 763 B.C.), which some have suggested would have increased Nineveh's receptivity to Jonah's preaching if it occurred not long before he arrived. The period finally culminated in a revolution that installed on the throne the famous Tiglath-Pileser III. He reestablished Assyrian supremacy, annexing the Aramean kingdoms and subjugating Israel and Judah (cf. 2Kn 15-16) [pp. 204-05] ...

Nineveh was in a time of national crisis. In the middle of the eighth century their sense of well being would have been extremely low as a result of famine, enemy attacks, and internal revolts. There was even a full eclipse of the sun in 763 B.C. Assyrians worshiped many gods and believed that a single careless act could offend one of them and cause serious trouble. This caused a great deal of uncertainty. As Walton explains, the people of Nineveh would have been looking eagerly for understanding of their situation from the omens. God had apparently been using these factors to prepare them to receive Jonah's message. "Even if Jonah's prediction was not the interpretation of omens that had been read prior to his arrival, it would be normal for the Assyrians to react to his message by checking the omens to see if they agreed." [p. 263]

This is the situation in Assyria and Nineveh when Jonah arrives sometime in around the first half to middle of the eighth century BCE. That is, if one goes by the dating used by non-WT sources. But, if one uses WT's corrupted dating scheme, which has the false date of 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction as a foundation, then, Jonah arrives in Nineveh in the latter half of the ninth century BCE, before Assyria experiences all of these troubles. Leaving one to wonder why the Ninevites were so willing to repent. This is part of the legacy of WT's false chronology.


2. This post has several links related to the eclipse of the sun in 763 BCE.


3. This post has a quote from Edwin Thiele's The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings showing how some try to subvert the dating of the 763 BCE eclipse so as to establish alternate chronologies. Thiele does not mention the WT specifically, but the WT is among those who dispute the dating of that eclipse. And not surprisingly, they are also among those who propose a non-standard (and self-serving) chronology.


4. For some discussion of second fulfillments of prophecy, including that of the book of Jonah, see this post.

Bobcat
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Re: The 390 & 40 Days of Ezekiel Chapter 4

#208 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

A link to Tadua's part 1 review of the Daniel video in the 2021 Regional Convention: Here. There is a good bit of chronological discussion in the review and a very helpful chronological/scriptural chart towards the bottom of the page. (Thanks to poster Marina for the link.)

I will try to add a link to part 2 when it becomes available.


Bobcat

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