The Final King of the North

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Kosonen
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Re: The Final King of the North

#91 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 years ago


Hello Konsonen,

Okay, gives us your short version. I've got a candidate in mind for the 10 horned-beast of Dan 7:7, but see as coming after the events of Dan 11:36. But you go first and I will give you my 2c worth (and that's all it is at this stage) after you've had your say.
Hi coccus ilicis,
The ten horned beast represent the Roman empire. Do you agree with that? And the 10 horns represent kingdoms that evolved from the Roman empire, like Spain, France, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany, Austria-Hungaria, UK etc.
And the final eleventh horn is the last strong empire who has its origins in the Roman Empire. That is USA. Because it was Europeans that were previously the Roman empire that formed the USA.
But the eleventh horn with eyes and a arrogant mouth will persecute the saints the final 3 and half year before God's kingdom begins its rule, so the eleventh horn must be the final dominant world power that originates from the beast, the Roman empire.
If we believe that the end will come within a few years, then Donald Trump in particular could fullfill the role of the eleventh horn that speaks arrogantly. And that would mean that soon he would turn against the saints and against Jesus and God. I think he will.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+

This scripture is talking about the same period and the same king and the same persecution as Daniel 7:30,31 and Daniel 12:7,11,12
Dan 11:30“He will go back and hurl denunciations* against the holy covenant+ and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+
“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.

Dan 12:7 “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time.* As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end,+ all these things will come to their finish.”
Dan 12:11 “And from the time that the constant feature*+ has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,+ there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation* and who arrives at the 1,335 days!

So Daniel 11 verses 30 to 45 should all happen within about 3 and half years. Because the time, times and half a time begins in verse 31 and that time period ends with God's Kingdom begining to rule the earth.

So we see the similarity of the eleventh horn that speaks arrogantly with the king of the north in Daniel 11. Because of that we can conclude that both visions deal with the same "king".

In addition Daniel the prophet got at yet un other time visions about empires and of the final days about wich we can read in Daniel chapter 8. And here again I see that the fierce-looking king is the same entity as the arrogant eleventh horn and the king of the north.

Daniel8:23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion,* a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings* will stand up. 24 His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way,* and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.+ 25 And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security* he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

And again the eleventh arrogant horn/fierce-looking king/king of the north is the same beast that is described in Revelation 13:11-13 wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon.+ 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast+ in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed.+ 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.

But these scriptures have not yet got their fulfillment. But I think it is very possible that this will begin to happen this year. I really hope that. I really want the end to come to this system of things and God' kingdom to begin its rule after the final 3 and half years.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#92 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

Kosonen wrote:
2 years ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 years ago


Hello Konsonen,

Okay, gives us your short version. I've got a candidate in mind for the 10 horned-beast of Dan 7:7, but see as coming after the events of Dan 11:36. But you go first and I will give you my 2c worth (and that's all it is at this stage) after you've had your say.
Hi coccus ilicis,
The ten horned beast represent the Roman empire. Do you agree with that? And the 10 horns represent kingdoms that evolved from the Roman empire, like Spain, France, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany, Austria-Hungaria, UK etc.
And the final eleventh horn is the last strong empire who has its origins in the Roman Empire. That is USA. Because it was Europeans that were previously the Roman empire that formed the USA.
But the eleventh horn with eyes and a arrogant mouth will persecute the saints the final 3 and half year before God's kingdom begins its rule, so the eleventh horn must be the final dominant world power that originates from the beast, the Roman empire.
Hello again,

I had initially thought something similar but in recent years have thought that the beast of Dan 7:7 might picture the industrial revolution ... and see a fourth beast, fearsome and unusually strong. And it had iron teeth, big ones. It went of devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet and it was something different from all the others that were prior to it... Dan 7:7.

The industrial revolution took the world by storm - the smoke of great steamships and thousands of miles of steel rail snaking through the countryside changed the world like nothing before it had done. Every nook and cranny was affected as people left their homes to seek their fortune elsewhere.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/boo ... eview.html
...Of course, Darwin doesn’t for a moment deny the vital importance of the capitalist ethic in the whole process, readily acknowledging that the British Empire “was a largely private-enterprise empire; the creation of merchants, investors, migrants and missionaries, and many others”. Yet there’s no tone of sneering negativity; indeed in examining the period of the Empire’s greatest strength, which he puts from the 1830s to 1940, he argues that “the British were able to build a world empire because they exploited the opportunities of global connectedness more fully than their rivals”...

Connections formed by money. Not just money but an organized network providing money where and when it was needed.
...The need for loans to finance Britain’s participation in the anti-French war of the League of Augsburg (1688-97) lay behind the establishment of a national Bank of England and the institution of a national debt see https://www.ft.com/content/269241e0-b84 ... 00779e2340.

Google the City of London
...Is the City of London a sovereign state? "The City" is, in fact, a privately owned Corporation - or sovereign state - occupying 677 acres in the heart of the 610 square miles "Greater London" area. ... "The City" is not a part of England and is not subject to the Sovereign nor under rule of Parliament.

The earliest money movers were traders, Jews, and crusaders who used their connections to move money in the form of promissory notes - a bit like cheques. This was honed to a fine art by the German Jewish Banker Nathan Mayer Rothschild who moved his operation from Germany to England - to the City of London, which appears to still be the central location of the international banking cartel. This is where this little horn sprouted and from there uprooted three of the 10 horns of the Dan 7:7 beast, namely

America
http://www.lovethetruth.com/books/pawns/05.htm
Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-L3BuC ... -L3BuCiV7w
The Eustas Mullins segment in the video is a bit over the top, but the essentials are there.
Germany
https://thedaysofnoah.wordpress.com/201 ... rld-war-1/
If we believe that the end will come within a few years, then Donald Trump, in particular, could fullfill the role of the eleventh horn that speaks arrogantly. And that would mean that soon he would turn against the saints and against Jesus and God. I think he will.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+
In your scenario, this would be a possibility, but Trump, like all presidents since the American civil war, is a puppet put in place by money movers that control the purse strings - it's the world-wide corporate banking cartel that calls the shots, their frontmen come and go. Trump's moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem (disputed territory occupied by Israel) and saying Jerusalem should be recognized as Israel's capital shows the direction the little horn is heading. Like any king, it needs religion, money, and power to rule. Religion is the final string to its bow. Jerusalem is home to the three main religions that sprouted from Abraham - hence the need to have Jerusalem recognized as the capital Is of Israel.

Rothschild and his gang of NWOrists don't worship the rock of Deut 32:4,18,31. Their rock is the trading rock Tyre/Rock (but that is another story).
This scripture is talking about the same period and the same king and the same persecution as Daniel 7:30,31 and Daniel 12:7,11,12
[Dan 11:30“He will go back and hurl denunciations* against the holy covenant+ and act effectively, and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+
“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.
But the king of Dan 11:30 is not the little horn, nor the same as the king of the north of Dan 11:40

Dan 11:32 continues ...and those who are acting wickedly against the covenant he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words and regards to those who have insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many and they will certainly be made to stumble ... for some days ...and some of those having insight will be made to stumble in order to do a refining work ... until the time to the end, because it is yet for the time appointed This occurred in the 4th century when Constantine handed down his ruling on the Nicene Creed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The end was still future. Dan 11:40 starts the period of the end ... and in the time of the end.... This brings it up the modern period when the king of the north has already become a puppet of the little horn of Dan 7, and Dan 12:1 continues this dialogue talking about this same period .. and during that time...

As for the rest, other than the identity of the little horn, we are on the same page.

The little horn of Daniel 8 is a completely different kettle of fish/horns that needs to be looked at separately as it starts to grow when the 4 Greek generals following Alexander the Great have fought themselves to a standstill Dan 8:23 and deals mainly with the religious aspect. I suggest we leave that until we have thrashed out this one.

PS: When the little horn of Daniel 7 begins to grow it uproots 3 horns,10-3 = 7 horns, + 1= 8. The little horn is an 8th head/beast in its own right Rev 17:10,11 (could be the same little horn). And according to Dan 11:44 Russia is now flexing it's own muscle – or is it? One ought not to forget that Russia and China are part of the 10 horns of seven-headed beast that hand over their authority to the beast for one hour in order to unseat the harlot Rev 17: 12 – 14, 17,18.

What a tangled web we weave Isa 25:7
LRW~

Kosonen
Posts: 311
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Re: The Final King of the North

#93 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Hi coccus ilicis,

You are right that Donald Trump is sort of a puppet. That is actually very much in accord with the Bible. Because it says that Babylon The Great dominates the kings of the earth.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

But I will stick to what I wrote about the time span:
"So Daniel 11 verses 30 to 45 should all happen within about 3 and half years. Because the time, times and half a time begins in verse 31 and that time period ends with God's Kingdom begining to rule the earth."

And the three horns that fell before the newcomer, the eleventh horn. Well I think that has not yet happened. But there are now political instability in UK because of Brexit, and in France because of the Yellow Vests and Merkel in Germany seem to be in trouble also. So I think that could finally result in those horns being humiliated before USA.

All this should quite soon culminate, so we will see how it will play out.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#94 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

Kosonen wrote:
2 years ago
Hi coccus ilicis,

You are right that Donald Trump is sort of a puppet. That is actually very much in accord with the Bible. Because it says that Babylon The Great dominates the kings of the earth.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

But I will stick to what I wrote about the time span:
"So Daniel 11 verses 30 to 45 should all happen within about 3 and half years. Because the time, times and half a time begins in verse 31 and that time period ends with God's Kingdom begining to rule the earth."

And the three horns that fell before the newcomer, the eleventh horn. Well I think that has not yet happened. But there are now political instability in UK because of Brexit, and in France because of the Yellow Vests and Merkel in Germany seem to be in trouble also. So I think that could finally result in those horns being humiliated before USA.

All this should quite soon culminate, so we will see how it will play out.
Hello Konsonen

Yes, I agree on that the next three and half years being crucial. The problem we puny humans have is that Satan imitates and deceives at 2thess 2:9,10, and it says ...For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie2 Thess 2:11. That means that God not only allowed the deception from the very beginning but aids and abets it to draw the man of lawlessness out. At Ezek 38:4 it says ... and I shall put hooks in your jaws and bring you forth with a military force... It indicates Jehovah is drawing out those who would, given the right circumstances, follow Satan. Dan 12:9,10 also shows it's a means of separating one from another. But Satan uses powerful deceptions and he has a limited period of time to do this (Dan 12:7).

And even though the ones having insight will understand much, they can't necessarily interpret events as they occur on the ground. That is why it says ... happy the one who arrives at one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days... Dan 12:11. In other words, the holy/clean ones, being the primary target means that some of them may cave in and believe the deception. This aligns with what Jesus said concerning the great tribulation being cut short on account of the holy/clean ones, and that the deception of the false anointed ones would be so persuasive so as to ...mislead if possible even the chosen ones... Matt 24:24

So we'll have to keep our wits about us and be prepared for whichever way the cookie crumbles. The Dan 11:30 scenario might still be future, but then again it also fits 4th-century events. I think the trick is to keep an open mind until we know for sure as it is impossible to see the wider ramification when one is in the midst of events. Only after it's all over does one see the complete picture.
LRW~

Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#95 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

.. adding a little to this thread and the “relevance” to the “This Is It” talk by the shaky AM lll. (although his confidence much improved in the Feb Broadcast).
I have a friend who is very much still attached to WT – he is a MS. Anyways his pet topic is the KoN etc and he has to drive over 2 hrs each day to work and he listens to Dan 8 and Dan 11. ..repeatedly...
He has often spoken to me about how he feels that Dan 11:32 onward is all literal, physical so to speak
he has always rejected the idea that Israel is now “Spiritual” and I have tended to encourage that viewpoint when he expresses it – and, he has felt that Turkey, Iran and Russia – being sorta Northish of Israel, must fulfill that role.
When I asked him what he thought about the latest illuminating talk, he was genuinely confused.
He said he could “understand how WT might feel that way” but thought it was rather narrow.
Further discussions were interesting and based around the two main points:
1. That Russia was the King of the North.
2. That Russia entered into the “Land of The Decoration” when they “invaded” the “Spiritual Estate” (a WT term) of Jehovah's Witnesses and took possession of all WT property and halls etc (God's only people).
However, he further reasoned that it can't be both ways: We then had an “either” “or” type of discussion that, if we took the WT “This Is It” thingy, then it would definitely have to be a spiritual thing. Think, “Jerusalem above” Gallations 4:26 and Hebrews 12:22 “heavenly Jerusalem”.
On the other side it would be literal ie the literal land of Israel would be entered into by some other literal real King.
What is left out though (if it is spiritual) is the KoN gaining control of the gold and treasures of Egypt.
Love to you all. Have a good week.

Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#96 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

... and if Egypt is literal. Then Egypt it be!

But if "Egypt" is symbolic of "the world" or more specifically the USA, then she/he could be taken over by the KoN BEFORE an Eighth King might be the (seemingly) final solution! One hour this Eighth King has … and the eighth king is not the king of the north.

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#97 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

An interesting two page article on (attempting to locate) the geographical location of Eden and the garden God made within it: Page 1 and page 2.

This was part of the research I did on this topic. And I wanted to catalog it here.

Armenia is thought by some to be the location of Eden and the garden. Moses said it was "in the east in Eden." (Gen 3:8) He also refers to the Tigris and Euphrates. The presumption being that Moses was using "in the east" from a point of reference in the wilderness (or possibly the promised land) that Israel traveled through. The article discusses the problems (several) that there are. Of course, there is still the possibility that it was located in the eastern regions of Armenia. And there would be great prophetic irony in its being located there, But, alas, positive proof is lacking.

There would be a very interesting irony if it were located there, vis-a-vis the final fulfillment of Dan 11:40-45. Unfortunately, there is no way to be dogmatic about it. The damage the flood did, and different possibilities about whose perspective is being used (regarding "in the East") make it difficult, if not impossible, to pin down at this time. (In case you do not remember, Armenia was the land that the Romans and Parthians were struggling over in 58-66 CE.)

By the way, this topic (i.e. this thread) is by no means dead. Just so you know.


Bobcat

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Stranger
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Re: The Final King of the North

#98 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

bobcat wrote,
By the way, this topic (i.e. this thread) is by no means dead. Just so you know.
Hi Bobcat,

In Ezekiel chapter 38 verse 2 it mentions the prince of Rosh in a lot of different translations (Ezk 38:2 ASV), IYO, is that an ancient name or maybe symbolic term for Russia?



Stranger,

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#99 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Stranger,

Just to save some writing effort, this thread has the answer to your question. But don't go there yet, until you read what follows:

And please don't take the link as an effort to put you off in any way. I started the thread in that link wondering why the WT would come up with an interpretation of "coalition of nations" for "Gog." If one reads Ezek 38:1-7 in the NWT, "Gog" is addressed with 2nd person singular pronouns (just as it is in the Hebrew text). And Ezek 38:7 specifically says that "you" (referring to Gog - see footnote 4 in the NET here) will be the "leader" or overseer of the "coalition of nations" described in Ezek 38:5-6.

Since that time I also have noticed that every time Gog is mentioned by the WT, "coalition of nations" is also mentioned along with it, as if, we would forget that explanation if they did not keep mentioning it. They are using repetition as a programming method.

There was one bump in the road for me. Rev 20:7-10 definitely equates "Gog and Magog" with "those nations in the four corners of the earth." So there was a sort of quandary or dilemma regarding 'who's who in the zoo.'

Around post # 27 in the thread I linked to above has the answer I was looking for.

So anyways, with that as a backdrop, "Rhos" or "Rosh" is the LXX's rendering of "head" (as in "head chieftain" in the NWT) from Ezek 38:2. They translated "head" as a proper name. (Incidentally, the KJV is very much influenced by the LXX. For example, see the discussion about that here. Yet the KJV does not render "head" as a proper name. But some other translations do. It may be the influence of the LXX. Either way, they are taking "head" as a proper name.)

The link to footnote 4 in the NET above also explains how Russia gets involved in the discussion. Incidentally, an invasion of Israel by Russia was Hal Lindsey's explanation of how things would go down in his book, The Late, Great Planet Earth. He envisioned all this going down in the 1980's (40 years, or one generation, after Israel became a sanctioned nation in 1948). I haven't heard much about Lindsey since then. He was probably taken aback by the breakup of the USSR just like the WT was. I could imagine Lindsey's dismay at watching the events of Reagan's and Gorbachev's time unfold. And seeing the USSR dissolve before his eyes. His explanation of how things would unfold probably seemed all so 'cut and dried' until the latter half of the 1980's. Alas, such are the pitfalls of trying to be a "faithful and discreet slave" who gives "food at the proper time."

But at any rate, around post # 27 in my thread above I posted what I had found that answered my question. In Rev 20:7-10 John is alluding to the LXX rendering of Ezek 38. He is doing that because he is writing to the 7 gentile congregations listed in Rev 1:4, 11. If one sees it that way, that is, with "Gog and Magog" referring to "those nations in the four corners of the earth," then, guess who plays the role of "Rhos" or "Rosh"? The answer is right there in Rev 20:7-8.


Bobcat

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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#100 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

Bing Search engine brings up:
multiple references to Rosh being of a Jewish origin

Google top search:
Rosh (Hebrew: ראש‎, "head" or "leader") may refer to: Rosh (biblical figure), a minor Biblical figure, mentioned in the Book of Genesis and possibly a nation listed in Ezekiel. "The ROSH", Rabbi Asher ben Jehiel (1250–1328) a prominent Talmudic scholar. Rosh Hashanah, the day of the Jewish New year

duckduck: brought up...
BibleHub International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
ROSH (2)
(ro'sh; Rhos, variant (Q margin) kephales; Vulgate (Jerome's Latin Bible, 390-405 A.D.) capiris):

1. Rosh and Its Renderings:

This name occurs in the prophecies against Gog in Ezekiel 38:2, 3 and 39:1, where the King James Version has "Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal." This translation is due to ro'sh being the common Hebrew word for "head" or "chief" (compare the Greek variant and the Vulgate), and is regarded as incorrect, that of the Revised Version (British and American), "Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal," being preferred.

2. Identification with Russia:

The identification of Rosh is not without its difficulties. Gesenius regarded it as indicating the Russians, who are mentioned in Byzantine writers of the 10th century under the name of Rhos. He adds that they are also noticed by Ibn Fosslan (same period), under the name of Rus, as a people dwelling on the river Rha (Volga). Apart from the improbability that the dominion of Gog extended to this district, it would be needful to know at what date the Rus of the Volga arrived there.

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