The Final King of the North

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DeborahsTree
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Re: The Final King of the North

#81 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 years ago


I kind of think they are feeling an angst among the R&F. As if the Society's prophetic abilities have come to a standstill.
A gentle slow horror is moving into the JW congregations, especially in the U.S. and Europe.

The unthinkable is becoming more and more apparent...the current Governing Body is lost. They have no clear instructions from Jehovah. God is leaving them in the dark; clearly evident by their continual adjusting and poor decision making.

(Matthew 24:45) 45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

Brother Morris is not confident that Jehovah is with the Governing Body; the "food at the proper time" is being withheld from them. They are striking in the dark.

They have become an embarrassment!


Deborah

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#82 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

DeborahsTree wrote:
2 years ago
Bobcat wrote:
2 years ago


I kind of think they are feeling an angst among the R&F. As if the Society's prophetic abilities have come to a standstill.
A gentle slow horror is moving into the JW congregations, especially in the U.S. and Europe.

The unthinkable is becoming more and more apparent...the current Governing Body is lost. They have no clear instructions from Jehovah. God is leaving them in the dark; clearly evident by their continual adjusting and poor decision making.

(Matthew 24:45) 45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

Brother Morris is not confident that Jehovah is with the Governing Body; the "food at the proper time" is being withheld from them. They are striking in the dark.

They have become an embarrassment!


Deborah
Hello Deborah,

I read this only again yesterday ...Look my own servant will eat, but your yourselves will go hungry. Look my own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look my own servants will rejoice but you yourselves will suffer shame... Isa 65:13

Here's my bit of speculation concerning the king of the North.

This is the king of the North
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent ... ty_Council
Only these countries (allies of WW1&2) have veto rights. In other words, these countries control all decisions on world security issues.

Speaking of the king of the north and south, Dan 11:40 says ... in the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in pushing, and against him, the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and with many ships and will certainly enter into lands and flood over and pass through. And he will also enter into the land of decoration and there will be many lands that will be made to stumble ... and he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands and as regards the land of Egypt; she will not prove to be an escapee and he will actually rule over all the hidden treasures ... and all the desirable things of Egypt oil and the Lybians and Ethiopians will be at his steps... Dan 11:40-43 Recent history will tell you that the exempted countries mentioned in verse 41, including the Lybians and Ethiopians, have been taken over or are in the process of being taken over (by regime change) - to secure access to this hidden treasure, namely oil.

So the king of the north rules supreme until there are ... reports that will disturb him out of the rising sun east and out of the north... These reports come out of his own backyard, they are fellow permanent members of the security council itself, namely China and Russia. And the king of the North, namely the principal members of the team, GB & U.S. with NATO (the Nth American Treaty Org) in tow ... will certainly plant his palatial tents between the seas or the Mediterranean and the holy mountain of Decoration as it was known in Daniel's day. The prime minister of GB said at this point in time GB had no plans to move its Embassy to Jerusalem as President Trump had donehttps://www.timesofisrael.com/theresa-m ... jerusalem/. ... and he will have come all the way to his end and there will be no helper for him... Note it does not say he is conquered, which seems to indicate that although WW3 might be in the offing it will not come to that. My guess is that the U.S. petrodollar will collapse, which will mean a total collapse of the U.S. economy. Armies live on their stomachs - they need to be fed. Regardless of overwhelming odds, historical examples show wars being lost before they were started because of a lack of supplies.

It continues ... but during that time... the time of the end Dan 11:40 ...Michael will stand up, the great prince the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people... Dan 12:1 This would have occurred at some point in time between the WW1 and now. As to when exactly is anybody's guess, but many have woken up and knowledge has become abundant particularly with the advent of the internet, and religions are in turmoil, and separation work does appear to be in progress Dan 12:2,4, 9,10.

For what it's worth that's my 2c worth.

Love
LRW~

DeborahsTree
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Re: The Final King of the North

#83 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

I do not know who the King of the North is.

We must wait on Christ.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#84 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

DeborahsTree wrote:
2 years ago
I do not know who the King of the North is.

We must wait on Christ.
Hello, Deb's Tree,

I don't think anyone can say for certain; if there were incontrovertible proof, i.e. God personally telling each individual who the king of the north is, then it would hardly be fair, would it?

Are you saying that that is what you are waiting for? At Dan 12:9 Daniel is told that the words are made secret and sealed until the time of the end and that those cleansing themselves would be refined and that no wicked ones would understand but those with insight would understand.

What do you think is meant by that?

By asking you these questions I am not challenging you, I simply wish to understand your reasoning on the matter.

Love
LRW~

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#85 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

This is an index for what has been posted on this thread so far. It will be the basis for a complete index when the thread (and its research) is finished.

Part One:
  • Synopsis of the structure of Dan 10-12.
  • Discussion of Dan 11:1-20.
  • Dan 11:21-35 applied to Antiochus IV.
  • Dan 11:36-45 referring to some mystery king.
Part Two
  • Sifting Through the Evidence
  • Clues Arguing for a Dual Fulfillment
  • A First Century Fulfillment
  • Does Nero Fit the Description?
  • How the Events of Nero's Time Were Fulfilled
Part Three
  • Introduction
  • Looking for the Ultimate Conflict
  • The Very Beginning of the Ultimate Rivalry

Additional research:
  • 1290, 1335, 2300 days, 3 1/2 times & Mt 24:15 all relating to Nero - See post # 57
  • Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Link to, Post # 115
  • Chart merging Rev 16, Mt 24, Dan 11-12, & timeline - Here
  • Cry of peace, Nero's "Golden Day" - See posts # 19, 21, 47
  • Discussion of Cyrus/Darius being given angelic support in Dan 11:1 - See post # 39, last 2 pars.
  • Eratosthenes a spherical earth, Link to, See post # 112
  • Further observations on Part Two - See post # 10
  • Further observations on an ultimate fulfillment - See post # 17
  • Gog of Magog and Rhos, See post # 99
  • How Nero was a "final" king of the north - See post # 14
  • King of the North, discussions, See posts # 71, 76 (Preterist view); WT view of, See post # 78
  • Links to PBS and BBC articles on Nero - See post # 35
  • On Satan and human personalities, Satan's being cast out - See post # 69, 72
  • Order of events during the GT - See post # 80
  • Post in reference to Treaty of Versailles - See post # 59, 64, 65
  • Roman-Parthian War of 58-63 CE, Links to, See post # 116

Further research on:
  • Dan 11:25-26, WT's view of, See post # 117
  • Dan 11:37, and Nero's 'women' - See post # 31; Nero's attitude towards religion - post # 109
  • Dan 11:38, "a god of fortresses," and the Domus Aurea - See posts # 39, 108
  • Dan 11:41, the "beautiful land," See post # 118
  • Dan 11:43, and a number of end notes - See post # 53, 55

The index will be expanded and amended as needed.


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#86 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 years ago
This is an index for what has been posted on this thread so far. It will be the basis for a complete index when the thread (and its research) is finished.

Part One:
  • Synopsis of the structure of Dan 10-12.
  • Discussion of Dan 11:1-20.
  • Dan 11:21-35 applied to Antiochus IV.
  • Dan 11:36-45 referring to some mystery king.
Part Two
  • Sifting Through the Evidence
  • Clues Arguing for a Dual Fulfillment
  • A First Century Fulfillment
  • Does Nero Fit the Description?
  • How the Events of Nero's Time Were Fulfilled
Additional research:
  • Further observations on Part Two - See post # 10
  • How Nero was a "final" king of the north - See post # 14
  • Further observations on an ultimate fulfillment - See post # 17
  • Discovery of a "cry of peace," Nero's Golden Day - See posts # 19, 21, 47
  • Chart merging Rev 16, Mt 24, Dan 11-12, & timeline - Here
  • Links to PBS and BBC articles on Nero - See post # 35
  • 1290, 1335, 2300 days, 3 1/2 times & Mt 24:15 all relating to Nero - See post # 57
  • Post in reference to Treaty of Versailles - See post # 59, 64, 65
  • On Satan and human personalities, Satan's being cast out - See post # 69, 72
  • Some links to other discussions of the KotN, and the WT view - See post # 71, 76 (Preterist view), 78 (WT)
  • Order of events during the GT - See post # 80
Further research on:
  • Dan 11:37 and Nero's 'women' - See post # 31; Nero's attitude towards religion - post # 109
  • Dan 11:38, "a god of fortresses," and the Domus Aurea - See post # 39
  • Dan 11:43 and a number of end notes - See post # 53, 55
Part Three
  • Introduction
  • Looking for the Ultimate Conflict
  • The Very Beginning of the Ultimate Rivalry

The index will be expanded and amended as needed.

Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

Thank you for posting this, all this research must have taken quite some time and effort.

One problem of trying to understand who the king of the north is by working through the series starting at Dan 11:2 is that the record of early history is patchy, flawed and biased. Man is not very good at recording his own history, you need only look at modern examples by reading what happened during the wars of the last century, i.e. the Korean war, U.S. history records are quite different from what is recorded by the other side. The other thing to take into account is not all the kings may be listed.

So I used a different starting point. I started from the end and worked backward and forward from there. Dan 11:40 clearly states ... in the time of the end... What I have provided is a picture of who has ruled the roost for nigh on a century. This starting point, the time of the end is secure as it is mentioned in other places in Daniel and appears to refer to the complete end. If we are indeed in that time then my speculation has substance. If not then we must wait for another period yet future that fits the picture.

Thank you again
LRW~

DeborahsTree
Posts: 1014
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#87 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 years ago
DeborahsTree wrote:
2 years ago
I do not know who the King of the North is.

We must wait on Christ.
Hello, Deb's Tree,

I don't think anyone can say for certain; if there were incontrovertible proof, i.e. God personally telling each individual who the king of the north is, then it would hardly be fair, would it?

Are you saying that that is what you are waiting for? At Dan 12:9 Daniel is told that the words are made secret and sealed until the time of the end and that those cleansing themselves would be refined and that no wicked ones would understand but those with insight would understand.

What do you think is meant by that?

By asking you these questions I am not challenging you, I simply wish to understand your reasoning on the matter.

Love

I've been associated with the Witness religion most of my life. Baptized over 50 years ago, lived through the 1975 debacle, trusted in leadership who were only human, lived a life half-lived because they claimed to "know" what no man or woman could know....the mind of God.

They trusted in numbers, chronology, dates, assumptions, in thinking God's spirit was with them and only them, always guessing but never truly KNOWING! They did not know because God was not telling them; but, no matter, they would go ahead anyway. From Russell to Rutherford, to Knorr and the present Governing Body they insisted on thinking they could light the darkness of the future. They failed to trust in God. They failed to listen to Christ...

At present there are too many unknowns to make even an educated guess on who the King of the North will turn out to be in the end. The world is in flux, the "sea" is being whipped up by the internet's social media there is no telling where they will go or what they will do. There is no knowing where a powerful King of the North will rise.

But that's not the point. The point is we do not know; so it's better to keep our religious powder dry until we do know. Otherwise we can mislead ourselves and others.

I do not know; so I wait on God.


Deborah

Kosonen
Posts: 311
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#88 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

To understand who is the final king of the north in Daniel 11, it should help if we are able to identify the beast with the ten horns in Daniel 7. And finally a last eleventh horn that has a mouth and eyes and speaks arrogantly appears on that beast. The actions of that last horn are very similar to the king of the north.

Daniel 11:36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods+ he will speak astonishing things.

Is it not clear that these different visions Daniel got at different times actually showed him the same king in the end time?

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coccus ilicis
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Joined: 4 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#89 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

DeborahsTree wrote:
2 years ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 years ago
DeborahsTree wrote:
2 years ago
I do not know who the King of the North is.

We must wait on Christ.
I've been associated with the Witness religion most of my life. Baptized over 50 years ago, lived through the 1975 debacle, trusted in leadership who were only human, lived a life half-lived because they claimed to "know" what no man or woman could know....the mind of God.

They trusted in numbers, chronology, dates, assumptions, in thinking God's spirit was with them and only them, always guessing but never truly KNOWING! They did not know because God was not telling them; but, no matter, they would go ahead anyway. From Russell to Rutherford, to Knorr and the present Governing Body they insisted on thinking they could light the darkness of the future. They failed to trust in God. They failed to listen to Christ...

At present there are too many unknowns to make even an educated guess on who the King of the North will turn out to be in the end. The world is in flux, the "sea" is being whipped up by the internet's social media there is no telling where they will go or what they will do. There is no knowing where a powerful King of the North will rise.

But that's not the point. The point is we do not know; so it's better to keep our religious powder dry until we do know. Otherwise we can mislead ourselves and others.

I do not know; so I wait on God.
Deborah
Hello Deb'sTree
I understand that the time to understand and act and how to act comes to each of us at different times. But don't bury your own ability to read scripture and reason and things out for yourself.

Timing also plays a part. What the JWs taught made sense at the time of their inception and when we were baptized we believed. I do not regret my time spent as a JW - I learned many things of value. But there came a time when I realized that they were stuck in a doctrinal groove and unable to do more than go around the same old track, and that's when I knew I had to leave and do my own study.

The only commission we have, if we have any, is to teach what Jesus taught
...Arise! O woman and shed forth light... Isa 60:1
If we love and promote Jesus (Rev 12:17) we can take the above words to heart personally. Even though we ourselves make mistakes and get things wrong we know this is God's work, not ours. And when we see where we've erred we retract, it's no big deal - we're just laborers hired at the 11th hour (Matt 20:6,7)

Never fear our 2c worth is worth investing if we lose it we put in another 2c worth and then again until we get it right (Matt 25:24-27).

Love
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Final King of the North

#90 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 years ago

Kosonen wrote:
2 years ago
To understand who is the final king of the north in Daniel 11, it should help if we are able to identify the beast with the ten horns in Daniel 7. And finally a last eleventh horn that has a mouth and eyes and speaks arrogantly appears on that beast. The actions of that last horn are very similar to the king of the north.

Daniel 11:36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods+ he will speak astonishing things.

Is it not clear that these different visions Daniel got at different times actually showed him the same king in the end time?
Hello Konsonen,

Okay, gives us your short version. I've got a candidate in mind for the 10 horned-beast of Dan 7:7, but see as coming after the events of Dan 11:36. But you go first and I will give you my 2c worth (and that's all it is at this stage) after you've had your say.
LRW~

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