The Final King of the North

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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#71 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Dajo1 sent me a copy of this link which has a discussion of the king of the north and south of Daniel 11:40-45.

I wanted to post it here for reference purposes. To me, the write-up in the link appears to be a sort of critique and hoped for (on the part of the writer) improvement on the WT's Daniel's Prophecy explanation of Daniel 11.

Where the explanation in the link (as well as the WT's explanation) differ from this thread could be summed up this way:

The WT explanation takes Dan 11:20-45 as a sort of running description of history from the time after Antiochus IV, and on up to the present and near future when Christ returns in fulfillment of Dan 12:1. The Daniel's Prophecy book places Antiochus IV within, and towards the end of, the fulfillment of Dan 11:13-19. (See dp, Chapter 13, pp. 228-29)

In contrast, this thread takes Dan 11:21-35 as being descriptive of the reign of Antiochus IV, and his "king of the south" rival. But the emphasis is squarely on Antiochus IV. It (this thread) then takes Dan 11:36-45 as being descriptive of a then future king (future from Antiochus IV), but with attributes much like Antiochus IV. And if you have been following the discussion in this thread, you will have seen an application in the first century to the reign of Nero based on Jesus' words at Mt 24:15 and their connection with Dan 12:11-12; 8:13-14 (and the fact that the three time periods in Dan 12:7, 11-12 actually fit events in the time of Nero and the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE, as well as the time period referred to in Dan 8:13-14).

And there is also the promise of yet another application of Dan 11:36-45 to another king with attributes much like Antiochus IV and Nero.


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#72 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi (or howdy) Stranger,
Following the religious pattern, I would agree with your assessment roundabout whereforth 33 CE or AD ? Could be a little later maybe, because as we know the Revelation is a mysterious thing.


Just for the sake of clarification, I would put Jesus' ascension in 33 CE (in fulfillment of Rev 12:5). The casting out of Satan would be after this (in fulfillment of Rev 12:7f; also see footnote 20 on Rev 12:7 here). But I would also place it before Nero's persecution begins in 64 CE, based on Rev 12:13. (Nero begins a long period of persecution of Christians by Roman emperors. Two centuries or more. See here. And also towards the latter half of this post.)


Edited to add: That reasoning above on Satan's being cast out of heaven would result in a window of from 33 CE to before 64 CE. If Satan had a direct hand in causing Nero's reign, with the purpose of persecuting Christians, then, the window narrows to between 33 CE and 54 CE (when Nero's reign starts). If Agrippina (Nero's mother) was part of a Satanic effort to get Nero into power, then, that would narrow the window down further to after 33 CE and before 49 CE (when she married Claudius, Nero's stepfather, which puts Nero in close proximity to the throne). (See this page and further down in it here.)

Looking at the history of Agrippina in the Wikipedia link about her above, it might even be plausible to narrow the historical gap even further, to say, somewhere between 33 CE and 40-1 CE. That would also allow for an up to 7 year (in earth time) war before the casting down. Seven years would not be a particularly un-Revelation-like time period. The wording of Rev 12:7-8 does indicate the war in heaven involved some sort of struggle. But I have no evidence to suggest how long the war lasted. I am simply guesstimating. (We really need Michael's e-mail address. :whistle: )

Of course, I am just postulating with the history to see what I can come up with. Agrippina was certainly the type of woman Satan had used in the past, such as Jezebel and Athaliah.

Further research that I find on Satan's ouster from heaven I will place in this thread.


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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#73 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

Incredibly researched post. Thank you Bobcat. I want to take a stab in the dark and ask a rhetorical question. Here is the question:
“Is the King of the North a person, an individual?” Yes
“Why”. Because of what we have learned about Nero
Is there a “King of the North” like person today? Yes
Who is that? Donald trump.
Why do you say that?
Because I typed 4 words into 4 different search engines and got similar results.
What were th 4 words?
Ok. Here they are:
“Is Trump like Nero”

The results were fascinating. Not to say it’s conclusive as no doubt I could type “is my dog like Churchill” and the results would be equally fascinating … more so since I don’t have a bulldog but my wife has a poodle.

That’s just a guess Bobcat. Based on that and some comments about him by Kosonen.
Thanks for posting that link to perimeno.ca I wasn’t sure if I should do that as I notice most links here are not to other persons webpages but mainly to - YouTube, gifs and jpegs, bible ref sites, media etc... I didn’t want to be promoting other sites with other views too casually.

Orchid61
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Re: The Final King of the North

#74 Post by Orchid61 » 2 years ago

The results were fascinating. Not to say it’s conclusive as no doubt I could type “is my dog like Churchill” and the results would be equally fascinating … more so since I don’t have a bulldog but my wife has a poodle.
Thank you Dajo for giving me a good laugh, after the tears I cried over that poor child with that vulture. Its all in our heavenly Fathers hands, I cannot wait for His Alarmclock to ring, and peace will be for The whole Universe.

Love to all,
Maria :waiting:

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#75 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Thanks Dajo,

And I am very glad you gave me the perimeno link. It gave me an opportunity to explain the different directions the WT (and perimeno) took in their approach to the prophecy and the direction I am taking.

On President Trump: See this post and this one.

Last night on CNN, the lady host was interviewing some congressman (republican, I think) about the president. He said (when the lady gave him a chance - most of it was her commentary), but he said the most worrisome thing about what is happening in Washington is the fact that the stability of the present world hinges on a reliable and steady USA.

That view is disintegrating before our eyes. We are near an epic change in the political structure of the world. I don't think it will be good for anyone who depends on government subsidies and pensions, especially in the USA. But we will see. Those who are described in Lk 16:9 will come out well. We are likely to see the end of the reserve currency status of the dollar. (E.g. here)

Having had a couple of months of learning and consideration since the linked posts above, I would stay with those opinions.

Part Four should be soon. You will see more clearly where I am going.

I am off of work for the holidays. So I will be able to give more time to finishing part four. They wanted me to work during the plant shutdown, but the HR manager said, 'No! Bobcat has worked hard enough. Let him enjoy his family now.'

The beloved wife does have some 'honey-do' work for me, but not a great deal. (Oh yea, and the gran are coming. That means play time!)


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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#76 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

For reference purposes, here is a preterist commentary on Dan 11:36-45.

The gist of it is that it applies Dan 11:36-45 to the whole line of Caesars from Augustus to Nero. As such, it makes for a very plausible sounding fulfillment. I don't think the authors of this fulfillment see any further fulfillment past Nero.

It also has some interesting historical quotes in it. That was another reason I wanted to book mark it. And it may have solved something about the 'reports out of the north' in Dan 11:44 that I was still pondering (in connection with Nero).


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AmosAu2
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Re: The Final King of the North

#77 Post by AmosAu2 » 2 years ago

Hi Bobcat,

Thanks so much for providing this link to the Preterist website. The article that is linked is excellent. :thumbup:
I hope many others take the time to read it.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#78 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

In case you missed it, in part 2 of the Annual Meeting broadcast, Anthony Morris gave his/their take on the king of the north. Starting at about the 52 minute mark (AM III's talk starts about the 49:30 mark in the broadcast):
The question arises, Will we have one or more times in the future or even now when we can say, “This is it,” and have that same exciting fervor because of Bible prophesy? Well, let’s begin with this one here. Find Daniel chapter 11 and we’re going to read verse 40 or half of it:
“In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing.”
So the Governing Body has been prayerfully considering recent events, and we know that in 1991 the Soviet Union came to an end. So who is “the king of the north”? Well, after prayerfully considering it, and the matter of the “pushing,” we’re assuring you that what we see, after prayerfully considering it, is that it’s Russia and its allies, the king of the north.

Now, here’s some reasoning: The Soviet Union disbanded; Russia came up from the rubble of the Soviet Union, along with its allies. And here are some of the facts: Two things have become apparent. Russia and its allies are continuing to engage in a pushing with the king of the south. We’ll get to that “pushing” point shortly. And the second, they are taking the lead in persecuting and opposing God’s people. Now, notice what the “pushing” includes: Electronic espionage, computer attacks, trade wars, and that’s what they call them, and the hostile flooding into surrounding territory. These are recurring features of the news headlines. You’re aware of them. So someone asks if the king of the north has been inactive? Well, no. It appears he’s never been this busy with the pushing the king of the south.

SOO, THIS IS IT. At this point, we’re confident to share with you that Russia and its allies are the king of the north. And they’re engaged in this pushing. In fact, last month [September 2018] they had the largest war games, Russia did, since the Soviet Union was in existence way back in the ‘80's. And, they had their allies with them in the war games. So we’re confident. THIS IS IT. This is the king of the north, and that’s what’s involved at this time with the pushing-locking horns with each other. So is there going to be another time related to Bible prophecy where the faithful slave will be able to say to you, “This is IT”?

. . .

“So, when they do destroy Babylon the Great and all of this is taking place on earth, you brothers are not going to need a breaking news update. Around the globe you’re going to say, "This is IT. The great tribulation has started."
Someone else typed this up, but the formatting and some of the spelling needed a bit of mending.

I don't want to tip my hand yet. But one obvious problem with the above explanation is that, in Dan 11:40 it is the king of the south who pushes. The king of the north responds by storming (militarily) against him. In the 1st century fulfillment, it was the Parthians (under King Vologases) who engaged in "a pushing" by putting Tiridates on the Armenian throne (by force of arms) in violation of a treaty with the Romans. Nero responded with a very successful, large scale military campaign (under General Corbulo) into Armenia and forced Tiridates to flee. The Romans then placed their own approved man (Tigranes VI) back on the Armenian throne.

This was the 1st century fulfillment of Dan 11:40. Of course, the WT does not recognize Dan 11:36-45 to have a 1st century fulfillment.

Another problem is that the future great earthquake does not start with an attack on Babylon the Great. (See chart here, and this post.)

And finally, Dan 11:36-45 speaks of an individual, not a block of nations.


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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#79 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

So yes, Tony Morris 3 did say that THE “This is it” moment will be the Peace and Security (supposedly the real one) and then BTG will be turned on and the ordinary JW will not need them to be informing them that “this is it”.
He said they came came to this conclusion – the GB did – after much prayerful consideration.

Bobcat, I've been pondering the charts and comparisons with your other posts and they are impressive to say the least! I started to write a post up to comment my observations but got completely sidetracked. The scenario that the gb envisions is:
1. Cry of peace and security
2. BTG turned on
3. Great tribulation
4. Armageddon
This seems out of whack
A possible scenario could be big civil war. collapse of powers. big trouble. solution. KoN. totalitarian rule. btg destroyed.

There is that event involving the big earthquake and a city being split into 3 parts. That could be literal. (I haven't read the posts yet but I'm sure there's some here suggesting that city is not BTG.)
Another thing that struck me as interesting was that Dan 11:36-45 indicates, as you noted, that the King is an individual and not a bloc af nations. This is a departure of sorts. However, the clue seems to be with the 1st century fulfillment and NERO being an individual..

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#80 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Dajo,
o yes, Tony Morris 3 did say that THE “This is it” moment will be the Peace and Security (supposedly the real one) and then BTG will be turned on and the ordinary JW will not need them to be informing them that “this is it”.
He said they came came to this conclusion – the GB did – after much prayerful consideration.
I kind of think they are feeling an angst among the R&F. As if the Society's prophetic abilities have come to a standstill. Some think they might have been holding off to see if the Russian authorities would relent a bit against the JWs. And since the Russians haven't they have decided to release what they think. It may be a combination of both. Or who knows.

The scenario that the gb envisions is:

1. Cry of peace and security
2. BTG turned on
3. Great tribulation
4. Armageddon
This seems out of whack
A possible scenario could be big civil war. collapse of powers. big trouble. solution. KoN. totalitarian rule. btg destroyed.
One thing I will say is that this thread led me to agree with the idea of a 'cry of peace and security.' Although, the WT does not yet understand what the cry will be about specifically. It was this thread, and especially looking for a fulfillment in Nero's time that led me to this discovery. Here is the initial post on that. And I think there are a couple more posts a little further down that elaborate on what I found. It opens up how it will happen in the future.

So the WT is, to a certain extent, correct on there being a "cry of peace and security" in the future. Although, they do not understand the why or how of it. Not yet, anyways.

This seems out of whack ...
Yes, their understanding of the order of events of the GT is "out of whack." For example, in your list above you have "Armageddon" as the number 4 event. But notice that "Armageddon" is, first of all, a "place" that kings and their armies are gathered to. (Rev 16:16) And secondly, this happens during the 6th bowl, not the seventh. (Rev 16:17) It corresponds with Mt 24:15 in the 1st century order of events. This post is one (of several) that elaborates on this subject.

There is that event involving the big earthquake and a city being split into 3 parts. That could be literal. (I haven't read the posts yet but I'm sure there's some here suggesting that city is not BTG.)
That would be me. This thread was dedicated to explaining the reasons why in excruciating detail. It is crucial to placing all the events of the GT in their proper order.

Rev 16:17 has the pouring out of the 7th (and final) bowl of God's anger. It has Jehovah saying, "It is finished!" Rev 16:18 refers to the "great earthquake" that follows. Then Rev 16:19-21 details the order of events:

Rev 16:19a - And the great city split/became into 3 parts. (A reference to the "great city" of Rev 11:8, the one that resembles Jerusalem. The splitting/becoming into 3 parts is an allusion to Ezek 5:1-4.)

Rev 16:19b - And the cities of the nations fell. (Corresponds to or parallels the Roman civil war of 68-69 AD and Lu 21:25-26 & Mt 24:29)

Rev 16:19c - Destruction of Babylon the Great. (No correspondence to the 1st century)

Rev 16:20 - And the islands and mountains are removed. (This is the "battle" of Armageddon. But all the events of the great earthquake happen at the symbolic "place" of "Armageddon." Rev 16:20 corresponds with Rev 19:19-20.

Rev 16:21 - Great hailstorm. (Corresponds with Rev 19:21; 6:15-17)

To be fair to the Society, they are trying to prepare JWs for what is ahead. So many are going about life as Luke 17:26-30 describes. The WT is definitely not like these.

Another thing that struck me as interesting was that Dan 11:36-45 indicates, as you noted, that the King is an individual and not a bloc of nations. This is a departure of sorts. However, the clue seems to be with the 1st century fulfillment and NERO being an individual..
Yes, seeing the 1st century fulfillment is necessary for understanding the later fulfillment. You can't fully understand the one without the other. And the way the WT explains Dan 11 (from about Dan 11:20 and forward) prevents them from understanding. They see some of the trees of the forest. But cannot comprehend the whole forest. I think it is meant to be that way.


Bobcat

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