The Final King of the North

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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#21 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

In connection with the pronouncement of peace throughout the Roman Empire in 66 CE, I found this wikipedia article on Tiridates I (here).

It turns out that this declaration of peace by Nero came in late May of 66 CE. It was Nov 14/15 when Cestius Gallus unexpectedly withdrew from Jerusalem and subsequently suffered heavy losses to Jewish forces at the Beth-Horon pass. (On Cestius Gallus see here. See this post for dating details.)

At any rate, the 'cry of peace and security' (to borrow that phrase) was followed fairly quickly by the start of the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE. (Compare "instantly" or "sudden" in 1Th 5:3.) Gessius Florus (the then Roman procurator) robbed the Jewish Temple of a huge amount of wealth in July, 66. The daily sacrifice was stopped in protest by the priests. (Dan 8:13; 12:11) Many see this as THE event that started the war between Rome and the Jews. As pointed out in the previous paragraph, the second foretold event, the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' took place in Nov 14/15, 66 CE. (Mt 24:15; Dan 8:13; 12:11)

See this follow on post for yet additional discussion of this.


Edited to add: Further research strongly suggests that this Golden Day, as it came to be called, occurred in May (late May) of 66 CE. As I understand it, Nero intended the day to be earlier in May, but bad weather caused him to move the day to late May. Nero wanted everything to be perfect for that day.

For reference purposes, this page has much of the post exilic history of the Jews on up to the Roman times.


Bobcat

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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#22 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

That Wikipedia article is revealing. It would appear that what we read at 1 Thess 5:3 was what occurred when peace prevailed at that time throughout the Roman Empire .. but that then enabled their full attention to turn to the rising problem of, and in, Judea. In 66. Great spotting!

Orchid61
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Re: The Final King of the North

#23 Post by Orchid61 » 2 years ago

Bobcat:

Tiridates 1 addressed the emperor:

My Lord, I am a descendant of Arsakes and the brother of the Kings Vologases and Pacorus. I have come to you who are my god; I have worshipped you as the [sun];[34] I shall be whatever you would order me to be, because you are my destiny and fortune.

To which Nero replied:
You have done well by coming here to enjoy my presence in person. What your father has not left to you and what your brothers did not preserve for you, I do accord to you, and I make you King of Armenia, so that you, as well as they, may know that I have the power to take away and to grant kingdoms.[35]

Interesting!

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#24 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Maria,

And all the while Nero is savaging Christians who were his scapegoats for the fire in Rome. Oh, the irony!

Compare Acts 12:1, 20-23 and footnotes 53 and 82 here (for Ac 12:20, 23 respectively).

As for Nero, he had no idea what the near future held for himself and his empire.

Oh, yea. Just remembered, there is something quite similar to this (Nero, not Herod) in the book of Daniel. (Teaser alert!)


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#25 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

This is an attempt to merge Rev 16:19-21, Mt 24:15-31, and Dan 11:40-12:2 into 4 parallel columns that also show a relative (1st century) timeline. (Of course, Rev 16:19-21 is not fulfilled in the 1st century, and so it is there just for comparative reference at this point in time.)

This 'chart' (below) is an attempt to add to the chart in this post.

I would imagine that this post will not work too well on small screens like smart phones. You will probably need to see it on a computer screen or decent size tablet.

Revelation . . . . . . . Olivet . . . . . . . . . . . . .Daniel . . . . . . . . . . 1st Century

Rev 6:2-8. . . . . . . . . Mt 24:6-7 . . . . . . . . . . Dan 11:40 . . . . . . . . 58-63 CE, Mt 24:6-7 describes 33-66 CE

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 11:41; 12:7 . . . . 64 CE, after July . . . . . . 3 ½ times ┐

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 11:42-43

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 8:25; 1Th 5:3 . . . 66, late May, "The Golden Day"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 8:13; 12:11 . . . . .66, July, Florus robs Temple, burnt offering stopped

Rev 16:16 . . . . . . . .Mt 24:15 . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 12:11-12; 8:13-14 .66, 14/15 Nov . . . . . . . . 1290, 1335, 2300 days ┐


No counterpart . . . . Mt 24:16-20 . . . . . . . . . Dan 12:1b . . . . . . . . .66, Nov, 'Flee in haste' (i.e. see here)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 11:44 . . . . . . . . .66, Dec/67, Jan, 'Reports out of East & North'

Rev 16:19a . . . . . . .Mt 24:21. . . . . . . . . . . . Dan 11:45a; 12:1 . . . . 67, Spring, Vespasian campaign starts in Galilee

Rev 16:19b . . . . . . .Mt 24:29, Lu 21:25-26 . . .Dan 11:45b . . . . . . . . 68, Jun, Nero dies. . . . .3 ½ times ┘

Rev 16:19c . . . . . . .No counterpart . . . . . . . No mention of (but see Isa 2:18-21)

Rev 16:20-21 . . . . . Mt 24:30 . . . . . . . . . . . .Dan 12:11-12 . . . . . . .70 CE, 14/15 Jun, 29/30 Jul . . .1290, 1335 days ┤

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Fall of Masada . . . . . . . .Dan 8:13-14 . . . . . . . .73, 8 Apr . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2300 days ┘


I understand this (just below) to be a 'bridge' of sorts between the 1st century GT and the future "great earthquake of Rev 16:17-18. Or, to put it another way, It represents the 1st trumpet (Rev 8:7), the effects of which go on until the blowing of the last (7th) trumpet. I put it below Masada just for the sake of clarity. It represents the expansion of the gathering of the "chosen ones" beyond the "inhabited earth," i.e. the Roman Empire (of Mt 24:14) to the rest of the earth.

Rev 8:7; 14:6-8 . . . .Mt 24:31. . . . . . . . . . . .Dan 12:2 . . . . . . . . . .Jn 5:25; Rom 6:13
Rev 18:4; Isa 2:1-4


No counterpart . . . .Mt 24:32-35 . . . . . . . . . Dan 9:24-27 . . . . . . . .To happen within "this generation"

Just as an observation, there are many elements within the book of Daniel (as can be seen above) that could have gone into producing the main points in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, especially the 1st century fulfillment of Mt 24:4-35. For example, the wording of Dan 9:24-27 presents the idea that the ones seeing the arrival of "Messiah the Leader" in Dan 9:24 would also see the destructive end foretold in Dan 9:26-27. It does not say "this generation" in Dan 9:24-27, but the idea is there.

As I am understanding it, Dan 12:2 would have to be figurative in its post-Nero setting, in line with Jn 5:25 & Rom 6:13 (and a number of other verses that compare becoming a Christian to coming to life). See also Mt 13:47-50 for the idea of a Christian era 'net' that collects both good and bad. Dan 12:4 looks like it would relate to the public preaching and teaching of Christians which results in Dan 12:2-3.

In a future fulfillment, Dan 12:2 would be more literal. And Dan 12:3-4 would continue to describe Christians.

The Roman-Parthian battle of 36 CE and war of 58-63 CE would be examples of "kingdom rising up against kingdom" a la Mt 24:6-7.

Look at the links at the bottom of this post for detailed discussions on the 3 ½ times of Dan 12:7; the 1290 & 1335 days of Dan 12:11-12; and the 2300 days of Dan 8:13-14.

On Rev 16:21 and a supposed 'hailstone message' as promulgated by the WT, see this post and the one immediately following.

(In case you are wondering, the strange angular characters found in this post are extended ASCII characters, such as can be found here.)


Bobcat

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Get out of her
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Re: The Final King of the North

#26 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Hello Bobcat:

First off I just wanted to send out a high five to you since there is no question in my mind that this is exactly the kind of subject matter that God's true servants should be heavily involved in pondering and prayerfully considering, and especially at this point in time.

When it comes to my own personal understandings of this particular topic and exactly how it relates to or ties in with the rest of scriptural prophecy and in fact the very theme of the Bible, I would say the following:

While it may very well require the writing of a rather large book for me to fully explain exactly how or why I have reached the conclusions I have on this particular topic, I would submit that the conclusions themselves are far more simple, and in fact would likely prove vastly more effective in explaining how I reached them if I were to basically just state them. So I hope you don't mind if I endeavor to do so and I will make a concerted effort to keep this as clear and concise as I can.

I personally recognize the United Nations as filling the role of the final foretold "king of the north." Why might this be? In a nutshell (as opposed to writing a book at least), this would be for the following reasons:

This is largely for the reason that you brought up to Dajo 1 when you acknowledged the tremendous importance of recognizing patterns in the scriptures or even what we often refer to more specifically as PROPHETIC patterns. This particular facet of the Bible is one of the things that immediately became FAR more apparent to me after becoming anointed, and in fact was one of the things that eventually compelled me to realize that I HAD become such. (Ho 14:9)

Among the eventual effects or results of this recognition of scriptural patterns was the realization at some point that the entire Bible could actually be recognized as essentially a compilation of what are in fact VERY FEW themes or key messages to the spirit anointed ones, with VERY MANY different ways of symbolically representing or illustrating them. Each one of these different illustrations in turn focus on different facets of essentially the very same thing, and when taken all together give us a much more complete understanding of the bigger picture.

As you yourself already touched on here in this discussion, one of the most prevalent scriptural patterns is the way in which God consistently uses literal/fleshly/earthly or material things to symbolically represent as well as prophetically foreshadow SPIRITUAL things or even events connected with his nation or people (especially his SPIRITUAL nation or people) throughout the course of history up to the time of the promise Millennial Reign. In other words, while there is no question in my mind that there is a literal fulfillment to be found on EVERYTHING prophesied here in this "king of the north and south" prophecy of Daniel, my own personal focus has increasingly come to be on the more "concealed"/"hidden," or underlying spiritual messages to the anointed ones when considering this or ANY scriptural account. (Col 2:3) (Mt 11:25) In fact I would insist that a better understanding of such things would be of great assistance in determining things like what would qualify as the final foretold "king of the north."

Once again however, the consistent and careful observation of clear scriptural patterns has proven indispensable in my own case when it comes to grasping these underlying messages in the first place. In other words, I am suggesting that once a Bible student comes to recognize what are really just a "VERY FEW themes or key messages" directed to the anointed in the scriptures, VERY QUICKLY they would begin to adopt the following approach, and not simply with accounts like Daniel Chapter 11, but basically ANY scriptural passage. What approach is this?

For the last several years at least, when I personally endeavor to consider an account like Daniel Chapter 11, the mindset I have when approaching it is basically this: How exactly are these "VERY FEW themes or key messages" to the anointed going to be covered or highlighted in THIS particular scriptural passage or prophecy, and how might this particular way of illustrating this same theme help us to better grasp a more complete picture of this phenomenon? In turn, the fact that these same themes continue to be illustrated in so many different ways should help drive home the point that whatever they might happen to actually be, they are undoubtedly of a most astonishingly important, profound and deep nature. So even if this theme would ultimately prove to be really just one thing, clearly it must possess MANY varied and critical facets which are important for us to at least eventually understand. (Ps 148:13)

I will submit that the more ANY of us would learn to take this approach to Bible study, the more we will begin to discover that ALL the prophecies of the Bible not only begin to be much easier to understand, but also that essentially the ENTIRE BIBLE was written in exactly the way Jesus was preaching and teaching in accounts like Matthew 13. In other words, "The kingdom of the heavens is like"------etc. Yes, the "kingdom of the heavens" is certainly one of if not THE PRIMARY theme of the Bible. So more specifically then, my approach or mindset going into a prophecy like the "king of the north and south" would basically be—okay, how does THIS particular prophecy help us to understand what the "kingdom of the heavens is LIKE"?

Well in this case, based on OTHER things a careful, prayerful and consistent observation of various scriptural patterns has helped reveal to me over the years, when delving into Daniel Chapter 11, personally I would be expecting to find things such as the following:

Whether referred to directly or indirectly, I would expect to find at least seven separate manifestations of this "king of the north" entity, while at the same time only one of the "king of the south." I would also come into this account expecting to find references to kingdoms such as Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. I would also expect to find that in at least some way, this dual entity is being represented also as ONE entity, which consistently experiences a kind of division. I would also expect to discover that this division ultimately results in at least seven times in which what might really be more like two halves of ONE entity experiences a very violent and mutually destructive confrontation. Finally, while the "king of the south" by stark contrast appears to ALWAYS be represented with the same six nations, I would expect that if three of them would never "escape" the destructive force of these violent confrontations that it would always be the exact same three that are identified as such. So do we find such to at least basically be the case here in this prophecy; and if so what might this indicate as to the deeper symbolic spiritual meanings in connection with the "kingdom of the heavens" I might be proposing are being conveyed in this 11th Chapter of Daniel?

I realize that likely few if any here would be inclined to understand things here in the same way that I do and that is certainly everyone's prerogative, but the underlying messages I am personally finding in this particular prophecy would go something like this:

To me this is basically just another way of symbolically representing the "seven times" prophecy that I continue to find being represented in one form or another throughout the entire Bible. In turn this prophecy is ALL ABOUT this very same theme of the "kingdom of the heavens." The real issue here as far as I'm concerned however would be the question of what specific things ABOUT this prophecy are being highlighted here in this case, or what particular facets of this "seven times" prophecy would we be helped to better understand by illustrating things in this particular way?

Once again we would want to bear in mind I have long been insisting that this "seven times" prophecy is much more about the seven foretold times that God's nation would need to experience a spiritual death and resurrection (cleansing or baptism, also referred to as planting and "harvest") corresponding with seven complete and spiritually adulterous violations of the marriage covenant, than it would be about merely a span of time over which these events would occur. (Da 11:30-32)

With that in mind, ONE of the things I see being highlighted much more about this phenomenon with this particular illustration is in connection with one of the exact WAYS that this cleansing and rebirth of the nation would be performed by God. To better explain this, we might first want to recognize that verses in this Chapter of Daniel such as 36 are really just another way of saying exactly what was expressed in verses such as 30-32. In other words, regardless of what particular foreign nation might happen to be playing host to God's people at any given time, it "takes two to tango" (as the old saying goes), or BOTH of these entities (both God's appointed shepherding class AND the foreign nation playing host to them) to commit the spiritual adultery that breaks the marriage covenant. Correspondingly this would mean that BOTH entities have once again behaved in exactly the manner described in verse 36 or even as described in scriptural accounts such as Daniel 4:30 or Numbers 20:10-12.

You see by acting in this manner, both God's shepherding class a well as the nation that they were exiled to have now completely forgotten that it was always Jehovah that was blessing them and causing them to flourish in every way imaginable. (Ge 39:5) I am suggesting that we begin understanding prophetic expressions such as found in Daniel 4:30 and 11:36 as emanating out of BOTH of their mouths simultaneously. So what always happens next now that this very wicked and prideful act has been committed?

You see I very much suspect that exactly what happened now to the rock that Moses struck with his rod is once again being represented here in Daniel Chapter 11. What was essentially one entity is suddenly now not only "struck" but also divided in two. Only as we are now helped to better understand here in Daniel 11, these two halves of basically the very same entity are now pitted against each other and they basically begin to self destruct. In turn, after both of them have experienced these "desolations" or "plantings"/"sowings," they then experience a resurrection or rebirth. (Baptism) (Da 9:26) We now seem to be helped to understand that this very large rock that was struck and split in two at the exact same time that Moses acted in a prideful manner was used to represent the way in which this "Babylonian" entity would likewise be struck by God and divided into a kind of "king of the north and south" before experiencing the "desolations" and rebirth now prescribed for it.

In the case of Moses and Aaron this death and rebirth was largely represented with their literal death and the way in which their shepherding power and authority was then transferred to Joshua and Caleb. Here in accounts such as Daniel 11 on the other hand, we see this same thing being represented with new or different foreign nations now assuming the role of playing host to what have yet again become God's exiled people. It is always this new foreign nation that is identified here as the "king of the north." Therefore I am suggesting that any time we might want to determine exactly what nation or world power currently qualifies as the "king of the north," we simply consider the question of what particular political entity would be the latest one that God's people have crawled into bed with by means of a spiritually adulterous alliance?

I can only think of one religious group in modern times that was even in a position to do this since all the others seem to have ALWAYS BEEN involved with both the politics and wars of satan's system of things. Moreover by no later than 1991/92 we can produce documented proof that this spiritual harlotry was definitely accomplished between the U.N. and the JW organization. From my own perspective the only real issue left remaining in connection with the "king of the north and south" prophecy would be with regard to what exactly is being prefigured with the six nations that are used to represent the "king of the south" when this splitting or dividing occurs, as well as the way in which three of them "escape" the "desolations" involved with these foretold seven baptisms and the three that don't. (Da 11:41-43) I'd be more than happy to get into these symbolism's as well if you or anyone might be interested. I can certainly understand if you are not since I seem to observe everyone's eyes kinda glazing over when I get into my views on such things.

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#27 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Thank you for your kind response Sol. I had just got up to edit or fine tune my little 'chart' above. A need for some fine-tuning was racing thru my mind and keeping me from sleeping.

I'll look very closely at what you wrote in the morning. Probably over a little coffee. I am still pondering over Part Three, weighing things.

Thanks again for your thoughts and help.


Bobcat (signing out for the night - if I can get my brain to agree to rest also. :) )

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Bobcat
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Re: The Final King of the North

#28 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

I did a little more fine tuning of the 'chart' above in post # 25.


Bobcat

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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#29 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

Good evening Sol,
I always enjoy reading what to have to say and you explained you modus operandi or your "method of operation". What I like about this forum is that we all have different ways and methods we use to get stuff to make sense for us.
For example, I am not much of a heavy lifter in the cognitive department but I find I am a gatherer and hunter who love to learn of other people by reading and listening and asking questions. I have a bit of difficulty holding it all together in a logical way ...but then things start to come together and It makes sense and it "feels" right. Ones like yourself and Bobcat obviously are deep thinkers cerebral and are able to grasp concepts - and kinda hold them all together and remember things and how this stuff relates to that bit and so on.
I find it really stimulating reading everybody's posts here.

You said straight up that you thought the UN was the King of the North - I tend to agree - and I wonder what part 3 will be about?

You also said:
"on the other hand, we see this same thing being represented with new or different foreign nations now assuming the role of playing host to what have yet again become God's exiled people. It is always this new foreign nation that is identified here as the "king of the north." Therefore I am suggesting that any time we might want to determine exactly what nation or world power currently qualifies as the "king of the north," we simply consider the question of what particular political entity would be the latest one that God's people have crawled into bed with by means of a spiritually adulterous alliance?" ....... and then made the interesting comment about WT being in bed with the UN for that infamous 10 year period - I also feel that is relavant.

I was wanting to say something about your closing comment, Sol, not to criticize but maybe to assist some of us here - as I mentioned about your method of operation. The reason I raise this is your last sentence said:

"I'd be more than happy to get into these symbolism's as well if you or anyone might be interested. I can certainly understand if you are not since I seem to observe everyone's eyes kinda glazing over when I get into my views on such things.

Most of your post was explaining your method as to how you reach your conclusion and since you stated the above you are obviuosly aware of how some might feel. I suppose you may feel like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place because if you had simply said "I think it's the UN' Some might want to know why and then you would feel a need to explain (your method ie annointings, manifestations, shepherding class, seven times, apostasizings cleansings, adulterous violations, symbolisms, desolations and so on.)

So, Sol, I really mean it when I say I respect the way you look at a lot of these topics. Is there a way, though, that you could express yourself and my eyes didn't glaze over? I think my eyes glaze over because there is sometimes too much information.

I have a similar problem (it is my problem) with Bobcat - to a degree. I can say this now as he's flat out trying to sleep. - But you know what he does, that bloke is incredible, he writes posts and before your into it he has us bouncing all around the site! See "here". "Here" and for this info I put it "here". By the time I've finished there's about a dozen tabs open, I've taken paths up different threads, become sidetracked, absorbed in other interesting subjects and got in a real quandry wondering what I started with. (I missed my station stop yesterday!) Anyway this is how I now handle it. I just stick to his post read it and try to understand it. His methods are great, but I sometimes simply can't absorb it all.
I hope you are not offended by by rantings, Sol and I look forward to your next post..
Christian Love ..

Orchid61
Posts: 575
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Re: The Final King of the North

#30 Post by Orchid61 » 2 years ago

Hi Dajo,
I missed my station stop yesterday!
So you got side tracked, woohwooh. :)

I second your feelings Dajo ;)

Agape Maria :crazy: :waving: :waiting: too little time in a trainride!

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