The Final King of the North

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Dajo1
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Re: The Final King of the North

#101 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

Me thinks that for the sake of just taking a breather and gathering some thoughts ... Bobcat wrote in the Post

1 "Gog of the land of Ma'gog". Specifically Post #27 some noteworthy things.

2 Also to get a take on WT something else that was referred to in the same topic is the "Question From Readers" in the Watchtower of May 15 2015 where they also "ponder" how KoN might fit in.

Stranger
Posts: 1901
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#102 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Thanks Bobcat for your insight!
There was one bump in the road for me. Rev 20:7-10 definitely equates "Gog and Magog" with "those nations in the four corners of the earth. So there was a sort of quandary or dilemma regarding 'who's who in the zoo.'
The truth is, no one knows who Gog is, and when you start reading about it there are a lot of theories out there.

What I find interesting is that all these names can be found in the book of Genesis except Gog. (1Chr 5:4)

Stranger, (Gal 3:15)

Kosonen
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Re: The Final King of the North

#103 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

China is on the rise, so Gog could be a Chinese military leader just because of that.

Kosonen
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Re: The Final King of the North

#104 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

But a bigger question to solve is who will Gog try to plunder, to take their gold, silver and cattle as mentioned in Ezekiel 38? I don't believe it speaks about fleshly Israel.
But Ezekiel 38 speaks about people gathered to a calm place in open rural country. And prior to the attack Ezekiel says that they will live there without disturbance. Where is that?
It does not fit Jehovah's witnesses in general. So WT's current explanation must be wrong.

Stranger
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Re: The Final King of the North

#105 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Kosonen wrote,
But a bigger question to solve is who will Gog try to plunder, to take their gold, silver and cattle as mentioned in Ezekiel 38?
I don't see how you can call that a bigger question when we don't know who Gog is. Right now as I see it the U.S.A. is the big boy in town, if Russia or China wants to wear the King of the North's boots then so be it. The sooner the better! Trump has already put Jerusalem back where it belongs and nobody has even hardly raised a whisper about it.

Where does the U.S.A. fit in with your outlook on the matter?


Stranger

Kosonen
Posts: 311
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Re: The Final King of the North

#106 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Hi Stranger,
USA plays a big role in the end time propbecies. But this empire will be destoyed by God or Jesus before the end of the other kingdoms. When USA has been taken away China can take USA's role as the big boy in the town for a short time. Then they can make UN the new world government.

Daniel 7 tells about an extraordinary strong beast with a final eleventh horn. That is USA. That chapter tells that this final king of this beast will have a specified period of 3 and half years to act and persecute the saints. And then it will be destroyed. While other kingdoms will remain for a time and a season after this.
So logically Gog is someone that comes after USA is taken out by God.

Daniel 7:11 “I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12 But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

Stranger
Posts: 1901
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Re: The Final King of the North

#107 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

by Kosonen » 6 hours ago

Hi Stranger,
USA plays a big role in the end time prophecies. But this empire will be destroyed by God or Jesus before the end of the other kingdoms.
If the USA is destroyed anytime in the near future, say in the next 25 to 48 years it will have to be God (Jesus) who will have done it, the only other force I see capable of destroying it, is the democratic party of the USA . I'm not a political person, I do watch the news a couple of times a week, fake or not, I can't tell.

I've been running around these roads of the USA for somewhile now, and I still feel like Bruce Springsteen when he said he was "born in a dead man's town", "nowhere to run, nowhere to go". (Born in the U.S.A., released 6-4-84)


Stranger, ( Lu 21:36)

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The Final King of the North

#108 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

The Hebrew word מָעוֹז ("fortresses;" transliterated maoz or mauz; מָֽעֻזִּ֔ים or mā-‘uz-zî in Dan 11:38; Strong's # 4581) came up on another thread (here) and so I wanted to put the definition and other information related to the word in this post. The discussion on the other thread centered around its use in Dan 11:38. See discussion in this thread related to application towards Nero here and here.

The word occurs in these locations in the OT: Jdg 6:26; 2Sa 22:33; Neh 8:10; Ps 27:1; 28:8; 31:2, 4; 37:39; 43:2; 52:7; 60:7; 108:8; Pr 10:29; Isa 17:9, 10; 23:4, 14; 25:4; 27:5; 30:2, 3; Jer 16:19; Ezek 24:25; 30:15; Dan 11:1, 7, 10, 19, 31, 38, 39; Joel 3:16; Nah 1:7; 3:11.

Here is the definition from AMG's Hebrew-English Dictionary:
I A masculine noun meaning a refuge, a fortress, a shelter. It signifies a stronghold or fortress (Ezek 24:25; 30:15; Dan 11"7, 10, 19, 39); or a protected location or place of safety (Jdg 6:26). It is used to modify sanctuary as a stronghold, indicating a temple possibly (Dan 11:31). It is also used in the expression "god of fortresses," indicating a god of war (Dan 11:38). It is used figuratively of God as a fortress (2Sa 22:33; Nah 3:11); the joy of God as a shelter or strength (Neh 8:10); of God as one's strength or defense (Ps 27:1); the way of God as a stronghold or refuge (Pr 10:29).

II A masculine noun meaning a stronghold, a fortress. It refers to all kinds of fortified locations and structures in Canaan (Isa 23:11).
A check of TWOT and NIDOTTE showed little difference in the definition of the word compared to AMG's dictionary. As I come across any additional for the word I will add to this.


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Re: The Final King of the North

#109 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

This post includes additional reference material in connection with Nero and Dan 11:37 -
He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. (ESV - More translations here.)
This is particularly in connection with Nero's attitude towards all religions. In Edward Champlin's Nero (pp. 132-35), he says:
Indeed, while Nero participated conscientiously in all the many ceremonies in which he had to take part as a priest of the state, and while he was naturally curious and tended to superstition, Suetonius was probably not wrong in claiming that he held all cults, religiones, in contempt. . .

. . . there is no need to think that Nero actually believed in Apollo [with whom Nero equated with the Sun]. Indeed, his attitude toward regular cults is well demonstrated in his visit in the year 67 to Delphi, Apollo's major shrine. Without a doubt his reason for going there was not to pay homage to his patron deity, but to compete in the Pythian Games, one of the contests in his Greek tour. Nero's conduct toward the great shrine was decidedly ambiguous. . .

Yet, even as he revived the shrine, he treated it abominably. His posthumous reputation at Delphi was appalling, even for Nero. . . Moreover, beyond this casual contempt, there is no good evidence that he in any way paid particular honor to Apollo of Delphi, as he did to Apollo of Palatine. His relations with the god were very much on his own terms.

Indeed, there are strong hints of a subversive element in these relations. The intriguing hypothesis has been advanced that some contemporaries wanted to portray the emperor Nero as Phaethon . . . the child of the Sun, who yearned to take over the reins of his father's chariot. . .

The value of Phaethon is to confirm that the emperor's preoccupation with Phoebus Apollo was purely aesthetic. He had no interest in the standard cults of the gods except the one he chose to honor, Apollo the lyre-player, and he felt free to experiment with his elaborate conception and presentation of himself as the Sun - even to the point of suggesting not that he was assimilated to the Sun, but that he [Nero] was replacing him [the Sun]. [Note: Nero considered himself to be very talented with the lyre, which is why he could identify himself with "Apollos the lyre-player." - Bobcat]

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Re: The Final King of the North

#110 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Linking a post on Dan chapter 7 that will be related to this thread: Here.


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