What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

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Get out of her
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#11 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Hello Kosonen and Jo-el:

Although I see no attempt to distinguish here between Babylon the Great in a standing verses a fallen condition, and I would maintain that a failure to take this distinction into account would only continue to create confusion on this topic, I would also suggest that Jo-el here is basically making my point with regard to what is actually being conveyed in the scriptures with the concept of using the term "city" or even "great city" in connection with Babylon the Great when he states the following:
New Jerusalem is also called a city and is the bride of Christ, made up of God's people who are united to Christ. In contrast Babylon is an adulteress, united to the King's of the Earth. She has chosen the wrong Kingdom, but the fact she is pictured as a woman and a city I believe shows a contrast between the 2 kingdoms and Babylons concerns are the fine things of the world.
Once again Kosonen, for the reasons I have already mentioned I have no problem at all with the idea of thinking in terms of New York when considering the final foretold fulfillment of the "fall" of Babylon the Great. All I am basically saying is that a literal city itself is of course not in a position to do things like commit spiritual adultery or even comprise God's "woman" in the first place. In of itself a literal city is an inanimate object. Rather just as I already indicated in my last post, these cities themselves mentioned here in scripture were clearly being used to represent more specifically the PEOPLE who were either in a position to constitute the AUTHORITY of God's theocratic nation, (and by extension the nation itself), or otherwise those who had once again LOST that very same authority by means of spiritual adultery/"harlotry."

You see regardless of whether or not legitimate theocratic authority and power had been forfeited or not by this Babylon the Great entity, or whether or not it was in a "standing" or "fallen" condition, basically as long as it would continue to exist it would maintain a "kingdom over the kings of the earth." Why would I insist this is the case?

This is because regardless of whether these people recieved their power and authority from God or the "dragon," the entire history of God's people makes it clear that the foreign nations they would become "captive" to were without exception the world powers of their day. (Re 13:2) As always this also held true when the JW organization formed an adulterous alliance with the United Nations evidently a few decades ago. Yes the seventh chapter of Daniel helps us to understand that ultimately this would simply be the final foretold manifestation of the Roman world power, but to me at least it seems self evident that this was nonetheless the "eighth king" that "would spring from the seven." (Re 17:11)

I fully realize that thinking in terms of Babylon the Great also in a "standing" condition with its "disgusting wings of an unclean and hated bird plucked out" and being "given the heart of a man" as opposed to that of a "wild beast" is most likely a completely new concept to basically all of us and goes against everything we have always been lead to believe by our religious leaders for likely many centuries if not more. I can assure you that I also struggled with wrapping my head around this new concept for the very same reasons. Nevertheless I can easily continue to demonstrate that this idea is extremely well founded on holy text.

Each one of the scriptural descriptions of the foretold "seven times" or seven manifestations of Babylon the Great appears to focus on revealing different facets of essentially the very same thing. I will suggest that to better accept and understand this particular one, we would want to more closely consider the second of these "seven kings." This would of course involve the relations that God's people had with the ancient Medo-Persian empire. More specifically I suggest we focus particularly on these relations in the context or setting of the period of time when this entire entity (God's people AND their captors) were in an approved "standing" with God as opposed to a "fallen" one. Basically the entire book of Esther can be found in this very setting. The account of the time that the Hebrews spent in ancient Egypt on the other hand is a good account for demonstrating BOTH of these settings, namely Babylon the Great in both a "standing" as well as a "fallen" condition.

I can assure everyone that the more deeply we study the scriptures, the more we will discover that the entire Bible is chock full of various ways of illustrating or typifying all the various facets of this very same phenomenon. For example we might consider the prophetic mini-drama of the time when God sent one of the "sons of the prophet's" to anoint not only a replacement for the prophet Elijah, (namely Elisha), but simultaneously a new king for Israel and (of all things) SYRIA! Did we ever stop to ponder why we find an anointing of a foreign king was so intimately involved in this depiction of a complete rebirth of God's nation? Should this perhaps call to mind the anointing of the Medo-Persion king Cyrus in ultimately this very same context? (1 Ki 19:15, 16) (Isa 45:1)

Yes this account in 1st kings was symbolic mini-drama of a spiritual rebirth of God's people while in a CAPTIVE condition with a foreign nation or king. The wicked queen Jezebel in this case was used to represent the "great harlot" and her subsequent destruction was among the symbolic representations in this case of the destruction of Babylon the Great. In fact right in this very same prophetic drama we find a representation of a resurrection or "harvest of the firstfruits" in the case of the prophet Elijah, as well as the newly established theocratic authority that these harvests produce. (2 Ki 2:11-14) In turn these "harvests" are always followed shortly with a "conclusion of a system of things" which in this case was represented with the tremendous amount of warfare that now ensued, as well as (once again) the death of Jezebel herself. (Mt 13:39)

We should understand however that until the time when ALL of God's anointed shepherding class (the entire Christ as opposed to simply the "foundation cornerstone"), would be comprised strictly of "Incorruptible and immortal" beings, to at least some extent they would ALWAYS posses "harlot"- like or spiritually unfaithful attributes. (1 Cor 15:51-53) This is exactly what got them into this foreign "captivity" in the first place if you recall.

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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#12 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

Every time I see the name "Babylon" I remember Babylon, Long Island where I grew up. A great place and great memories.

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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#13 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Have you ever considered the question of what might Babylon the Great actually be in a "STANDING" position if in a "fallen" one she "HAS BECOME the dwelling place of demons"? (Da 7:4) (Re 18:3) Has it ever crossed your mind that in order to suddenly "BECOME" "a dwelling place of demons" this would mean that initially this "great city" or "great harlot" WAS NOT a dwelling place of demons"? Have you ever seriously pondered the fact that if at some point an entity "HAS BECOME" a "lurking place of every unclean exhalation…and every unclean and hated bird," this would automatically mean that at some point this very same entity would have had its unclean "wings plucked out"? (Re 18:2) (Da 7:4) Have you ever prayerfully considered the issue of if "Babylon the great" could at some point in its existence be "given the heart of a man," this by extension would mean that PRIOR to this event this very same entity would have been endowed with a "heart of a beast," or even with one of "stone." (Da 4:16 7:4) (Ez 11:19) Did you ever recognize it as somewhat strange that this foreign captor of God's people that the scriptures often identify as an "Egyptian"- like or "Babylonish" entity is not only often associated with "loathsome, disgusting and unclean things," but also at times with actually being "ANOINTED" by God, or as being directly associated even with God's very own KINGDOM"? (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 4:20-22) How exactly is it that such a "harlot"-like foreign captor is also consistently represented in the scriptures as being actually MARRIED to or essentially "one flesh" along with God's own nation or "woman," such as with the divinely blessed union between the Persian King Darius and the Jewish Queen Esther"? Since this foreign captor is obviously often described in the scriptures as "loathsome" and "disgusting," why is it that ones even as highly esteemed as the ancient Joseph, the prophet Daniel, or Esther and Mordecai found ruling right along side this very same entity in positions of great power and glory?

The reason all of these might suddenly seem like great questions is because you have never been taught what Babylon the Great truly is, nor the fact that its identity actually changes based on whether it happens to be in a "standing" or "fallen" condition. One of the most important things for us to grasp at this time is something that in truth is blatantly self-evident as well as a perfect example of how extremely effective satan has been in blinding our eyes to things like the true meanings of the "seven times" prophecy. This is namely that in order to actually break one of God's marriage covenants; you would of course first need to ACTUALLY BE IN ONE, just as you could never qualify as an adulteress unless you had first been MARRIED! God simply does not form marriage covenants with the "world empire of false religion!" Just as demonstrated also in the first century, he forms them with the ones who repentantly and obediently "GET OUT FROM AMONG AND SEPARATE THEMSELVES" from HIS OWN nation when it "FALLS" into apostasy or SPIRITUAL "harlotry." (1 Cor 6:17) (Isa 48:20) (Re 18:4) (Lu 22:29) By the same token, the moment we understand that the final foretold "day of Jehovah" that we ourselves have long been eagerly anticipating "will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST"… (2 Th 2:2, 3) and that this "apostasy" in turn is scripturally identified as an adulterous alliance (as opposed to a CLEAN and divinely ordained one) between God's own appointed shepherding class and what would suddenly NOW be the very apex of SATAN'S political system, (Da 11:30-32) we in turn will be prompted to consider questions like the following:

Has not the "world empire of false religion" ALWAYS had political ties to satan's world? How exactly is it even possible for an entity that has ALWAYS ALREADY been in bed with Satan's world all along to suddenly become guilty of spiritual adultery before being called to account for it with yet another "day of Jehovah" or "conclusion of a system of things"? (Mt 13:39) Is it not the case that one of the primary reasons many of us were involved with the JW organization in the first place because we recognized it as the ONLY religion that was NOT already sitting atop the "wild beast"? Did we perhaps overlook the fact that this would in turn mean they were the only ones in modern times that were even in a POSITION to commit this spiritual harlotry when things like the NGO and OSCE agreements were formed with the U.N.?

You see it's rather difficult for us to "keep on the watch" for the proverbial "thief in the night" when we have long been programmed to NOT "render our sacred service with our power of reason," or for that matter to NOT "carefully examine the scriptures daily as to whether these things are so." (Mt 24:42, 43) (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) In fact once the demons are allowed to overrun even Jehovah's very sanctuary when these unfaithful alliances are formed, chances are the ONLY thing that can now overpower the "spiritistic practices" that now follow and thereby begin waking us up is an anointing by God's holy spirit. (Re 18:23) Compare (Ez 12:24) (Ho 14:9) Have we perhaps long been trained or even programmed to always overlooked things like the fact that the "sorceries" spoken of in accounts like Ezekiel 12:14 were among the sins being committed by ISRAEL upon "FALLING" into idolatry or otherwise "BECOMING" the "GREAT CITY which in a SPIRITUAL sense is called Sodom and Egypt where their lord was also impaled"? (Re 11:8 13:12 17:18) (Isa 1:21)

The subsequent "fleeing to the wilderness" or "mountains" that is now commanded on the part of the anointed ones was exactly what was demonstrated also with the way that John the Baptist as well as Jesus and his disciples soon SEPARATED themselves from the apostate chief priests, scribes and Pharisees upon grasping the extremely dire spiritual condition they had "FALLEN" into. (Re 12:6, 14 18:2) (Mt 24:15, 16) (2 Cor 6:17) Moreover it was this very same spiritual fall that found them as new bedfellows of the Roman world power or otherwise for the FOURTH foretold "TIME," sitting atop the "WILD BEAST" as if God's "woman" were now a "great" spiritual "HARLOT!" We need to take note of the fact that scriptures such as Isaiah 48:20 were written well BEFORE the ancient Jews found themselves in Babylon. These words of Isaiah were actually more akin to a divine warning that if the Jews did not soon "get out of" Babylon in a "SPIRITUAL SENSE," they would soon find themselves there in a LITERAL one! (Re 11:8)

I'd have to insist that the moment we finally manage to free ourselves from what in truth are indeed actual spells or "spiritistic practices" that our very own religious leaders become involved with the moment that God's holy spirit is "removed" from the apostate King Saul entity and "a BAD spirit" now begins "terrorizing" them," facts such as this suddenly become rather embarrassingly obvious. (Re 18:23) (Isa 47:0) (1 Sa 16:14) Literally ALL the things that are attributed to this adulterous "woman" here in Revelation Chapter 17 are DIRECTLY associated with GOD'S OWN NATION or "woman" THROUGHOUT THE SCRIPTURES the moment she "FALLS" into spiritual adultery. (Ez 16) Essentially the entire Bible goes even so far as to CONSISTENTLY use terms like "prostitute" or "harlot" in connection with God's own nation the moment her spiritual unfaithfulness reaches the point in which she actually submits or even formally allies herself to a foreign nation. (Ez 23) Even this "blood of the holy ones and witnesses of Jesus" mentioned here in verse 6 of Chapter 17 is DIRECTLY assigned to JERUSALEM by Jesus himself in accounts like Matthew 23:37 AND IN THIS VERY SAME CONTEXT of yet another "abandoning" of God's house due to an adulterous union with a foreign nation. (Mt 23:38)

You see this "abandoning" of God's "house" when this spiritual harlotry occurs is exactly what is being spoken of in accounts like Daniel 11:31 where we read of this "constant feature" being removed from the "sanctuary" and being replaced with a "disgusting thing that causes desolation" the moment that an "APOSTASY" takes place on the part of the ones identified here as "ACTING WICKEDLY AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT!" (Da 11:32) Yet for some strange reason even while we read about all these very same things including even this very same "disgusting thing," when we get to Revelation 17 (Re 17:4) we are suddenly expected to understand that none of these things have anything whatsoever to do with Gods own nation. Rest assured it is this very same "disgusting thing" the Apostle John "CATCHES SIGHT" of (Re 17:6b) here in Revelation 17 that Jesus is speaking of in accounts like Matthew 24:15, 16. IT IS NEVER from a place in which one would constantly be "hearing the voice of the bridegroom and of a bride" (Re 18:23) that spirit anointed "virgins" (as opposed to "brides") would ever be "FLEEING" from. (Mt 25:1, 2, 6, 10) (Re 12:14)

Just as was long ago pointed out rather clearly in scriptural accounts such as Isaiah 1:21, God's very own "FAITHFUL TOWN" would at times actually BECOME a "prostitute" by means of committing SPIRITUAL harlotry." (Ez 16:1-63 23:1-49) The forming of unfaithful alliances with foreign nations always transforms this "faithful town" into the third part of a three part "GREAT CITY which in a SPIRITUAL sense is called Sodom and Egypt, where their lord was also impaled." (Re 11:8 16:13, 19 17:18) By cross referencing this term "great city" we soon come to find it is synonymous with "the great harlot" or "Babylon the Great." However in these settings of national apostasy, this would more specifically be Babylon the Great in a "fallen" condition. (Re 17:1, 18 18:2) I will continue to demonstrate that it is VERY IMPORTANT for us to grasp not only that there is a significant distinction between Babylon the Great in a "standing" verses a "fallen" condition, but also exactly what this distinction means. (Da 4:30 7:4) (Re 18:2)

The "fall" of Babylon the Great is essentially the exact opposite of what we have always been taught. This event has in fact always been a TRAGIC one comprised basically of God's earthly "sanctuary" becoming overrun with "demons" after he "abandon's his house" due to another broken marriage covenant with his nation or "woman." (Re 18:2) (Mt 23:38) (Da 11:31) This is when a "certificate of her full divorce" is handed to her. (Jer 3:8) Moreover since we already understand that Jesus was actually "impaled" in Jerusalem as opposed to "Sodom or Egypt," obviously this means that Jerusalem, or more specifically what she actually represented, (namely God's appointed shepherding class), was now "Sodom and Egypt in a SPIRITUAL sense." (Re11:8) You see, "Babylon the Great" has MUCH MORE to do with GOD'S OWN PEOPLE OR NATION than it does with any alleged "world empire of false religion." The moment one comes to finally grasp this; scriptural accounts like Daniel Chapter four will suddenly begin making MUCH MORE SENSE! What exactly am I getting at here?

In other words, while bearing in mind that the "carefully concealed" or "HIDDEN treasures" of the Bible were only ever intended to be made manifested to the spirit anointed and only in God's due time, among the things I am adamantly insisting needs to now be recognized while reading accounts like Daniel 4 is the following:

When reading about "King Nebuchadnezzar" or even "Babylon the Great," (as opposed to merely Babylon) (Da 4:30) we first of all need to understand what Babylon the Great ACTUALLY IS, as opposed to what we have always been TOLD it is. I'll contend the moment we actually begin to understand things like exactly what this entity truly is, we in turn are in a much better position to grasp the fact that she would both rise and "fall" a total of "seven times" in this context of foreign or "Babylonian captivity" ALONE! By extension, we are now in a position to understand that the broken and subsequently re-established divine marriage covenants are DIRECTLY CONNECTED with these "standings" and "fallings." This in turn puts us in a position to grasp the fact that these "standings" and "fallings" correspond directly to "harvests" and "conclusions of a system of things." (Da 7:4) (Re 18:2) (Mt 13:39) "conclusions of a system of things" (ends of an age ("time"?) in the original Greek) in turn points of course to BEGINNINGS of new ones. Yes the act of crawling into bed with Jehovah's very own "woman" ALWAYS results in an angelic call to arms or "trumpet blast," and the fact that this act of spiritual adultery would be committed "seven times" in this 2,520 year time frame alone means that there would be exactly seven of these "trumpet blasts" or "days of Jehovah" within this very same time span. (Re 8:1, 2) (2 Th 2:2, 3)

You see regardless of the fact that scriptures like Revelation 11:8 or Jonah Chapter three are among MANY that EXPLICITLY begin to reveal very key and critical pieces of information to help us actually understand what is being spoken of in accounts like Daniel 4, religious leaders who have ties to Satan's world are never going to point this out to you! It is only prayer, Bible reading, holy spirit and hopefully some of your fellow anointed brothers and sisters that will do so. Haven't you ever found it odd for example that God would send one of his prophets to a foreign nation or even a "GREAT CITY" in ASSYRIA? (Jon 1:1, 2) Since when does THAT ever happen, and what was THAT all about? Or since when does God ANOINT a FOREIGN KING with his holy spirit? (Isa 45:1) Why would God EVER equate an earthly manifestation of his kingdom with a great tree that he then IMMEDIATELY associates directly with a FOREIGN KING by the name of Nebuchadnezzar?! (Da 4:20-22) To grasp the answers to these questions is to recognize not only what Babylon the Great actually is, but also the difference between this entity in a "standing" verses a "fallen" condition.

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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#14 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Once again the reason all these things have long seemed confusing and contradictory is not only because we have never actually been taught what Babylon the Great actually IS, but also that its identity actually CHANGES based on whether or not God's marital covenant has been violated or not. The first thing we need to understand about the fourth chapter of Daniel is that it was in a context or setting not only WITHIN this 2,520 year time span of the exile of God's people, but SPECIFICALLY in a setting in which God's marriage covenant was IN TACT or in good "STANDING." (Da 7:4) Just as had been illustrated as far back as with Joseph in ancient Egypt, the prophet Daniel and his anointed companions had at this point been appointed to positions of great authority and power within the Babylonian kingdom. At the very LEAST this was a symbolic representation of a RE-APPOINTING (as opposed to merely an anointing) or an official REBIRTH of theocratic shepherding power and authority on the earth. In other words, the divine marriage covenant had been renewed. One extremely critical piece of information that has always been withheld from us however is that in the setting or context of this 2,520 foreign captivity, this renewed covenant would encompass MORE than simply the Israelites. (Regardless of whether they be fleshly or spiritual ones) The fact is that the foreign nation that now played host to them (whichever one it might happen to be at the "time") was ALSO included in this renewed covenant!

You see just as an adulterous alliance between God's woman and the "king of the north" constitutes her as ONE along with the "dragon and wild beast," an UNBROKEN marriage covenant in the context of this foreign "exile" by the same token constitutes God's woman as ONE, not only with her God, but also with the nation currently hosting her. In other words, Babylon the Great would ALWAYS be a three part Great City, regardless of what these three parts might happen to consist of at the "time." (Re 16:19) This in turn means that regardless of whether it is "Cyrus the Mede" along with Esther and Mordecai, or "Nebuchadnezzar the Babylonian" along with Daniel and his "companions," etc., as long as this "Babylon the Great" entity (Da 4:30) remains in a "STANDING" position as opposed to a "fallen" one, in this setting of foreign "captivity" of the Israelites, it ABSOLUTELY DOES qualify as an expression of GOD'S KINGDOM! Moreover, these "births" of God's nation (or at least those foretold for this period of foreign "exile" or period of "seven times") which would always follow these spiritual deaths, WERE ALWAYS foretold to occur "SEVEN TIMES." (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) It was for this very same reason that these "sowings and harvests" or deaths and resurrections of God's nation were also described as SEVEN BAPTISMS." (2 Ki 5:14) It is also for this very reason that King Nebuchadnezzar there in Daniel Chapter four is being DIRECTLY associated with this immense "tree" which in turn is CLEARLY being used to represent God's own theocratic rulership! Is Daniel Chapter four beginning to make more sense now?

This great "tree" (God's theocratic rulership in the context of this foreign "captivity") which would provide "food and lodging for all the earth," would be "chopped down" or otherwise would "FALL" (Re 18:2) each and every "TIME" the marriage covenant would be broken; and as we can already discern from this one account alone, this adulterous violation would occur "seven times" within this 2,520 year time frame alone. What now proceeds to occur here in this Chapter of Daniel with respect to Nebuchadnezzar pridefully taking credit for the tremendous blessings that God had by this time already bestowed upon his kingdom "due to " the figurative "Joseph" entity (Ge 39:5) was exactly the same thing that was illustrated with Moses failing to give credit to Jehovah at the waters of Meribah. (Nu 20:10) This was namely a prophetic drama or symbolic representation of the unfaithfulness and pride involved with the breaking of the marital covenant. You see just as is the case with LITERAL adultery, it always takes at least TWO for this sin to be carried out.

Each "time" that this unfaithful betrayal of the covenant would occur, ALL the guilty parties involved with it (namely the "dragon, the wild beast, and the false prophet") would be held accountable. This in turn is EXACTLY the reason that the "harvests" (harvests of the "firstfruits" and their corresponding blood atonement) which are always now required to renew the marriage covenant are considered by God as SYNONOMOUS with a "CONCLUSION OF A SYSTEM OF THNGS."* (Mt 13:39) There would therefore be "SEVEN" of these "days of Jehovah" (2 Th 2:2, 3) within this 2,520 year time frame alone. I am absolutely certain that the World War we are CURRENTLY facing is directly connected with the adulterous alliance the JW organization formed with the U.N. or "eighth king." While what we are already experiencing is technically the final foretold "great tribulation" as opposed to Armageddon, rest assured this is the final foretold "day of Jehovah" we are already beginning to witness. (2 Th 2:2)
*{ It should be noted that while most Bible translations read something more like—"the end of the world" as opposed to "a conclusion of a system of things," the New World Translation is actually much more in harmony with the ancient writings in koine Greek. In the original Greek, Bible readers would have understood this scripture in very much the following manner:
"A harvest is an end of an age." (Mt 13:39)
In the ancient Greek, the word age is ion, and that is exactly the word we find in the koine Greek writings. We therefore can rightly recognize that at least from a scriptural standpoint and particularly in this context, that this word "age" or "ion" as simply another way of saying "time," as in "seven times."

Yes the "seven times" prophecy is basically all about the fact that there would be "seven times" in which a unholy or spiritually adulterous alliance would be formed between "the ones leaving the HOLY covenant" and what WAS (up until that moment) the "king of the north" (the previously much more respectful foreign nation or world power that happened to be playing host to God's people at the time) as opposed to the "wild beast." (Da 11:30-32) These "apostasies" would instantly change the VERY IDENTITY of ALL THREE of the entities that up until that moment comprised the "great city" or "Babylon the Great." What had INITIALLY been comprised of God, his covenant people and the foreign nation that was respectfully hosting them, is by means of these "apostasies" suddenly transformed into "the dragon, the wild beast, and the false prophet." (Re 16:13) The latter three is exactly what has "been put in place" of the "constant feature" that has now been "removed" from God's earthly abode or "sanctuary." (Da 11:31) This is the REPLACEMENT Christ which in fact is the literal definition of the word "antichrist." (Strong's # 473) The "son of destruction" or "antichrist" is Babylon the Great specifically in a "FALLEN" condition.

Do the initial "three parts" of the Great City" (Re 16:19) seem like a rather wild concept and particularly in the context of the spiritual nation of Israel (Christianity) as opposed to the ancient fleshly manifestation of God's kingdom? This is no doubt due to the fact that these initially clean and divinely approved manifestations of God's kingdom in the context of these foretold 2,520 years never seem to last more than about 50-70 years at a time. We might think of this in terms of how after the "kingdom of the son of his love"* was established at Pentecost 33CE with the "harvest" or resurrection of Jesus and the corresponding massive outpouring of God's holy spirit, only about 70 years later we find the Apostle John officially announcing the next arrival of the "antichrist." (1 Joh 2:18) (Col 1:13) Worse yet, the only version of it that was foretold to exist in more modern human history was identified in Revelation 11:13 as lasting only "an hour." (Not a literal hour of course, but obviously a very short time) The fact is there is a seemingly endless stream of scriptures that point in the direction of ALL the points I have just made here concerning Babylon the Great, and the moment we begin to grasp things such as this as well as the number of "TIMES" such adulterous alliances would be formed by God's nation while in this "exiled" or "captive" condition, it now begins to become much easier to determine MANY OTHER THINGS that until now have remained obscure and confusing for us. Among these are what the "seven heads" on the "seven headed wild beast" ACTUALLY or even SPECIFICALLY represent, let alone the fact that there are "SEVEN" of them.
*{The expression-"kingdom of the son of his love" is with reference to the SPIRITUAL manifestation of God's nation or kingdom SPECIFICALLY in the context or prophetic time frame of the "gentile times" or this foretold period of 2,520 years. However since the spiritual manifestation of God's nation did not actually come into existence until directly in the middle of these foretold "seven times," this means that throughout the course of the remaining "3 ½ times" of the "seven times," the theocratically appointed (as opposed to merely anointed) spiritual shepherds would consist merely of Apostles (as opposed to "disciples") or something identified by the Apostle Paul as more resembling mere "stewards of the sacred secrets of God" rather than actual "kings." (1 Cor 4:1, 8) With respect to the earthly "camp" of the "Shulammite" at least, actual theocratic kings would not exist on the earth among God's nation until sometime AFTER this "gentile times" period would be fulfilled. These "kings" would even prove to be "incorruptible and immortal," and they would be distinguished as being associated with the long anticipated Millennial Reign as opposed to the "kingdom of the son of his love." (Ca 6:13) (1 Cor 15:51-53) (Re 5:9, 10)}

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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#15 Post by Get out of her » 1 year ago

21 Give my greetings to every holy one in union with Christ Jesus. The brothers that are with me send you their greetings. 22 All the holy ones, but ESPECIALLY those of the household of CAESAR, send you their greetings. (Php 4:21, 22)

Particularly in the case of ones with our religious background, I would suggest this is just one example of a scripture that likely seems rather confusing. After all, weren't we always taught things like ---the politics of this world are among the products and works of Satan, and a true Christian has nothing to do with the politics and wars of satan's system of things. Year after year we were heavily programmed with teachings such as that any and all involvement in the politics and wars of satan's world is among the proofs that any particular religion is a part of "Babylon the Great" and will thus suffer God's wrath right along with the rest of her. In fact seemingly in defense of this position, Jesus himself makes it clear that his true followers are "no part of this world." (Joh 15:19)

Nevertheless here in scriptures like Philippians 4:22 we find things like the Apostle Paul identifying the very household of CAESAR HIMSELF as among NOT merely his fellow spiritual brothers and sisters, but even the FOREMOST of them! In fact throughout our ENTIRE LIVES we have been considering scriptural accounts of even Jehovah's foremost servants like the ancient Joseph, the prophet Daniel, and Esther and Mordecai not only serving in capacities of political office, but even positions second only to the Pharaoh or king/emperor himself! Well do such things only serve as proof that the Bible contradicts itself? BY NO MEANS!

The fact is I both can and even already have been demonstrating with the scriptures for years now that what things such as this ACTUALLY prove is that we have NEVER been taught what Babylon the Great truly is. This is not to say however that ones such as the first century Christians did not understand these things. In fact careful and thorough analyses of accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and its reference scriptures make it clear that the Apostle Paul ABSOLUTELY had a grasp of what was symbolized with these kinds of scriptural terms. So then how might an adjustment in our understanding of what this entity ACTUALLY is perfectly account for or reconcile what otherwise would seem a glaring contradiction?

You see the reason why the "seven times" prophesy was also expressed in terms such as "seven plantings and harvests," "seven" spiritual cleansings or "baptisms," or even "seven births of a barren woman," is because from as far back as the writings of Genesis, Jehovah had foretold that even well BEFORE the promised Millennial Reign there would be brief periods in which the earth would essentially NOT be under the power and control of Satan. (Ge 41:22-24) (2 Ki 5:14) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Da 4:23, 32) We might think of this in the following manner:

What could POSSIBLY be inappropriate with accepting a position in political office-- say –like in the case of Mordecai in ancient Persia when JEHOVAH HIMSELF points out that its king was one of his "anointed shepherds"? (Isa 44:28 45:1) Are we supposed to understand that ancient Babylon qualified as a "Great spiritual Harlot" when it was being ruled over by ones such as the prophet Daniel and his three Hebrew companions? (Da 2:46-49) Of course not! What would MAKE these seven foretold foreign powers "GREAT" to begin with was JEHOVAH; and more specifically that they would be chosen not only to deliver his people from a PREVIOUS nation that had fallen into complete apostasy, but then subsequently play host to them or even assist in their protection and care much like the Pharaoh of Egypt that began to bless and exalt the ancient Joseph.

However if or when these same theocratically appointed shepherds in a covenant relationship with Jehovah begin to "act wickedly against the covenant" and even "LEAVE the holy covenant," would it not also now be true that what WAS "the faithful town has now BECOME a prostitute"? Just as Isaiah says? (Isa 1:21) (Da 11:30-32) Would not the definition of Babylon the Great now actually change into precisely what we read in accounts like Revelation 17:5? As opposed to simply Babylon the Great, would it not now qualify also as the "mother of the harlots and the DISGUSTING things of the earth"? Is this not PRECISELY what Babylon the Great became the moment the son and heir of King Nebuchadnezzar began to do as recorded by Daniel the prophet when Belshazzar began to exhibit great disrespect for Jehovah and his temple treasures, all the while undertaking to "praise the gods of gold and of silver, copper and wood and stone"? (Da 5:1-5)

You see when the scriptures speak of the "FALL of Babylon the Great," it is not a literal or military fall that is being referred to, and this should be all the more apparent to us when we consider that the LITERAL kingdom of Babylon went completely out of existence long before prophesies found in Revelation 14 and 19 were even written. (Re 14:8 18:2) This symbolic spiritual language is with reference to the "times" in which a foreign nation serving in the role of a benevolent captor and even host of Jehovah's people would "FALL" into spiritual adultery or "harlotry" by means of violating the kingdom or marriage covenant that initially qualified it as among Jehovah's "anointed shepherds." (Isa 44:28 45:1)

In order for it to even be POSSIBLE for one of these "seven" foretold kingdoms to "BECOME a dwelling place of demons," it would first have to qualify as NOT being such an entity. In order for it to "BECOME a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird," it would first have to qualify as NOT such a "place." Just as pointed out in scriptural passages such as Daniel 7:4, in order for ANY of these "FALLS" to unfold in connection with the foretold "births" or manifestations of these "seven kings," they would first need to be in a "STANDING" position with respect to their covenant relationship with JEHOVAH HIMSELF. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Re 17:10) In order for them ever to ACQUIRE the "loathsome" or "disgusting" "wings of an eagle," they would FIRST need to be recognized by Jehovah as having had them "plucked out." (Da 7:4) Compare (Le 11:13) (Da 9:27 11:30-32) (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 12:14) By the same token in order for this foreign entity to be "given the heart of a man," it would first need to have its "heart of stone" removed from it. (Ez 11:19)

Now on the other hand when this "anointed" "king of the north" entity would begin to "lead" his fellow spiritual shepherds "into APOSTASY," and they would begin to "act wickedly against the covenant" and even "LEAVE the holy covenant," the very opposite of this would begin to manifest itself. Just as it points out here in this same account of Daniel, when the kingdom covenant is broken with spiritual unfaithfulness or even "harlotry" on the part of these "anointed" shepherds, the Christ ( literally –anointed -Strong's #5547) or what here is referred to as the "continual sacrifice" is "REMOVED" from Jehovah's "sanctuary" or "temple" (consider 1 Cor 3:16) and a "DISGUSTING THING that causes desolation" is "PUT IN PLACE" of it. (Da 11:31)

Well rest assured it is no coincidence that this concept of a replaced or substituted anointing is PRECISELY the TRUE definition of the word "antichrist." (Strong's #473 #5547) This word "antichrist" is actually among SEVERAL scriptural terms such as "man of lawlessness," "disgusting thing," or "great harlot" (as opposed to "Babylon the Great") that point to the fact that when Jehovah's appointed spiritual shepherds fall into this aforementioned "apostasy," the subsequent demonic invasion spoken of in accounts like Revelation 18:2 is ACTUALLY with reference to what Jehovah allows to happen the moment he removes his holy spirit from them. Yes, since these shepherds themselves would COMPRISE the "temple" or "sanctuary" of Jehovah's Holy Spirit, this empty void created by the removal of Jehovah's spirit would now be filled or replaced with that of THE DEMONS!

Now at this point anyone who would REMAIN anointed or even become anointed with Jehovah's spirit AFTERWARDS, the moment they would begin to UNDERSTAND that this great tragedy had once again unfolded, they would be required to do exactly what is referred to in accounts like Matthew 24:15, 16 , 1 Corinthians 6:17 or Revelation 12:6, 14 18:4. Yes after "catching sight" of this incredibly disturbing situation, (as the evidence of this "apostasy" always inevitably begins to manifests itself), the FIRST thing they would need to do in order for Jehovah to now "take them in" (2 Cor 6:17b) is to in effect take what is now even THEIR OWN "loathsome" or "disgusting wings of an eagle" (based on the community responsibility that Jehovah assigns to ALL of the anointed in these pre-kingdom time frames) and "FLEE" to the "mountains" or "wilderness" to be "fed" spiritually by Jehovah's prophets and prepared for yet another complete spiritual cleansing and rebirth. (Am 3:7) (Mt 3:11 24:15, 16) (Re 12:6, 14) (Le 4:3 11:13) This spiritual cleansing and rebirth is referred to with terms such as a "baptism of holy spirit and fire" or "planting and harvest," and as brought out in accounts like Revelation 11, the ENTIRE sequence of events that it ALWAYS includes would continue to be repeated all the way up to the Millennial Reign. As verse 7 and 11-13 point out, this would include also the literal death and resurrection of Jehovah's "prophets" or "two witnesses."

Yes this entire sequence of events or what the scriptures represent in prophetic symbolism also as an ongoing "circuit"/cycle/wheelwork" or even "marches around the figurative ("great city") of Jericho" was ALWAYS foretold to repeat itself "seven times" in connection with "GENTILE" or FOREIGN kings before the manifestation of the long anticipated "Millennial Reign." (Mt 10:23) (Eze 10:13) (Jos 6:2-5) (Da 4:23) (Le 26:18) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) (2 Ki 5:14) (Ge 41:22-24) Moreover, every single step or facet of this ongoing sequence of spiritual deaths and rebirths of Jehovah's kingdom was PERFECTLY illustrated in prophetic dramas such as with the apostasy of the ancient King Saul. How exactly was this?

Here in the book of 1st Samuel we find that after King Saul becomes guilty of apostasy and Jehovah removes his holy spirit from him, we find that the demons are now allowed to begin "terrorizing" this unfaithful king. (1 Sa 16:14) At this point the shepherd boy David is used to symbolically prefigure the people that Jehovah now chooses to anoint in place of these unfaithful rulers. (He 8:5) Just as illustrated with the ancient David however, at the time that this NEW anointing by Jehovah occurs, these ones are actually engaged in unclean spiritual relations with this now apostate nation. In order to now qualify as spiritual "virgins" (Mt 25:1, 2) or even BEGIN to position themselves as ones that Jehovah can begin to now spiritually cleanse from this demonic invasion and all it's spiritual "harlotry," these unclean spiritual relations with the apostate nation must cease altogether. (Re 14:4) (Mt 3:11) This "separation" (2 Cor 6:17) is exactly what is now represented with the "running away" or fleeing that David eventually performs in connection with King Saul. (1 Sa 19:18)

We of course realize however that ultimately much more will now be required on the part of these spiritual "widows" and "virgins," or what Jehovah now begins to recognize even as a "barren woman" since not only have they now been forced to abandon even the children or flock of the now APOSTATE shepherds, but clearly they have not at this point even had the TIME to begin developing Bible students of their own. (Isa 54:1, 4) (Song 1:6) Just as demonstrated for us also in the early part of the first century in this exact same setting, the spiritual cleansings of these newly anointed ones also involve not only the undertaking of a NEW ministry, but in the case of Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses," (John the Baptist and Jesus on this occasion) even a literal death and resurrection. (Re 11:3, 7, 11- 13) So would there perhaps be ADDITIONAL steps that are now represented in this prophetic drama of David and Saul?

We might notice that David wasn't represented merely as fleeing from Saul, but more specifically he fled to the prophet Samuel at a place called Ramah. (1 Sa 19:18) Well as it turns out this is precisely what is being represented with scriptural terms such as "fleeing to the "mountains" or even "valley of MY mountains." (Mt 24:15, 16) (Zec 14:5) In much the same manner as prophets like Moses were often associated with a mountain (Mt Sinai in this case) in these settings of national apostasy, the word Ramah literally means a height or high place. Throughout the scriptures mountains have consistently been used to represent genuine authority and power, even if it consists at times of what was granted to satan after the rebellion in Eden. (Lu 4:6)

We might recall that when ones such as Peter and John began to separate themselves from apostate Judaism for example in the first century, as opposed to simply removing themselves from this false worship, they began to seek out Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses." Upon subsequently responding favorably to their teachings and spiritual direction, THEY THEMSELVES were soon granted the theocratic authority and power required to JOIN IN with Jehovah's prophets in their assigned ministry to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that were continually and increasingly now "catching sight" of yet another national apostasy. (Mt 10:5, 6) (Mr 3:14)

In the prophetic drama of David and Saul, this very thing was represented or illustrated with David now beginning to accumulate followers after LISTENING and paying heed to Jehovah's prophet. (1 Sa 22:1, 2) Compare (Ez 9:4) This prophetic pattern is repeated again and again in the scriptures such as in the account of Haggai. We might notice that it was ONLY at the moment that the separated/escaped ones began to "LISTEN" and pay heed to Jehovah's prophets that what was recognized as a completely devastated "house" or nation now began to qualify in Jehovah's eyes as beginning to be rebuilt. (Hag 1:2, 8, 12-14) In the prophetic drama of Saul and David, it is in this precise time frame that Samuel experiences his death, and this of course was used to represent the blood inauguration that is ALWAYS the final part of the spiritual cleansing and rebirth of Jehovah's kingdom or "birth of the barren woman." (1 Sa 25:1) (Isa 54:1-3 66:7, 8) (Jer 15:9) Compare (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) Nevertheless David and his followers would ultimately spend years in this "wilderness" or "separated" condition before he is finally crowned as the next King of Jehovah's nation.

Are we beginning to better appreciate not only that there is a very critical distinction between Babylon the Great and the "great harlot," but also why it is so important for us to grasp this distinction? You see if we don't even know what scriptural terms such as this actually mean, how in turn would we even know how to obey divine commands such as found in Matthew 24:15, 16?

We need to understand that regardless of whether or not Israel would exist in a fleshly or spiritual form, or whether or not it would exist in "foreign captivity and exile," it was ALWAYS represented first and foremost as a NATION. It would ALWAYS qualify as a nation or kingdom that would HAVE a religion, or organized form of worship. In other words, during the brief periods or "times" that Israel would actually EXIST (by means of a kingdom covenant in good "standing" with Jehovah) even its anointed shepherds would be DIRECTLY AND HEAVILY involved not only in its religion, but also its POLITICS! However on EACH of the foretold "seven times" that this holy covenant would be violated with spiritual adultery on the part of these same shepherds and they would now need to be "struck" or "chastised" by Jehovah, the anointed ones would now need to "get out of" or "flee" from BOTH its religion AND politics! And as we can see this would comprise merely the FIRST thing they need to do. (Da 4:23) (Le 26:18, 24) Compare (Mt 26:31) In other words, the "seven times" prophesy was MUCH more than merely a time calculation of 2, 520 years of foreign captivity and exile.

So to conclude this discussion, let's please take a second look at this scripture I cited at the beginning. (Php 4:21, 22) The fact is that particularly upon considering some of the Bible Books that the Catholic Church began to remove from the canon after the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, we will find that the first century Christian congregation was working VERY CLOSELY and in COMPLETE cooperation with an up and coming NEW manifestation of the Roman Empire. Just as had already been demonstrated for many centuries, there would ALWAYS be a NEW foreign kingdom that would rise to great power in CONJUNCTION with the "seven" foretold "births of the barren woman." (1 Sa 2:5) In fact regardless of what these manifestations would be referred to or identified as by mere humans in the annals of earth's history, if there were to ultimately be "seven kings" involved in this "seven times" prophecy, then this "birth" of the Roman empire would have qualified as the SECOND of what would eventually be FOUR. (Re 17:10) This ALONE would mean that the failing political system we are experiencing at this very moment qualifies as the final "horn" on this "fourth beast" of Daniel 7 that would supplant or "pluck out" three that came before it. (Da 7:7, 8) Rest assured it is no coincidence that any serious amount of digging soon reveals that the Roman Catholic Church is ultimately what is still behind the scenes desperately attempting to pull all the strings.

Just as clearly demonstrated for us throughout the history of Jehovah's nation or kingdom with the "typical representation and shadow of the SPIRITUAL things," the foreign political power that would rise in connection with a RENEWED kingdom covenant (such as occurred also in 33 CE with the death and resurrection of John the Baptist and Jesus), would ALWAYS immediately embark on the COMPLETE destruction NOT ONLY of the political system that came before it, but also its false "Jewish" religious system. (He 8:5) (Col 2:17) This would continue to hold true even in connection with SPIRITUAL Israel, and even if it began to be referred to most often as true Christianity.

In the case of this SECOND manifestation of the Roman Empire that began in 33 CE, the destruction of apostate Judaism was completed 40 years later in 74 CE at the fortress of Masada. (Col 1:13) By the time this occurred however there was absolutely nothing left of the FIRST foretold manifestation. The first century historian Flavius Josephus pointed out in fact that it was essentially for this very reason that General Cestus Gallus suddenly withdrew his attack on Jerusalem in 66 CE. He had just received word that he no longer even had an Empire left to fight for! What returned to Jerusalem with General Titus in 70 CE to finish the Job was an entirely new manifestation of the Roman Empire with the full support of Jehovah himself, and this is exactly why it now experienced complete success.

You see regardless of whether "Babylon the Great" would exist in a "standing" or "fallen" spiritual condition, it qualifies both as a religious AND a political entity. As such, BOTH of its aspects would either experience tremendous blessings or tremendous cursings. Among the things that these facts irrefutably demonstrate is that in order to EVER qualify as a great spiritual adulteress or "harlot" from Jehovah's standpoint and thus experience a "divorce" from him, you would FIRST need to qualify as his WIFE! (Isa 50:1) (Jer 3:8) Just as clearly indicated in accounts like 2 Corinthians 6:17 or for that matter even DEMONSTRATED for us in the early part of the first century, what "God's people" need to "get out from among" at times would be what WAS the ONLY form of TRUE worship, and what by means of a broken kingdom/marriage covenant NOW suddenly qualifies as a "GREAT" spiritual ADULTERESS or "HARLOT." (Re 18:4) Compare (Re 11:8)

When we piece all of these scripturally verifiable facts together, we are finally in a position to fully grasp what ones such as the Apostle John is actually conveying in accounts like 1 John 2:18, or otherwise in the symbolic spiritual language that Jehovah utilizes THROUGHOUT the Bible. What exactly is this?

John is actually informing all of the remaining spirit anointed ones that there in the setting of on or around 98 CE, what HAD comprised the fifth of the "seven" foretold "births of the barren woman" or manifestations of Jehovah's nation/kingdom in the context of foreign exile and captivity was now its "last hour." The "apostasy" that ones like the Apostle Paul had long been warning the Christian congregation about was now unfolding, or otherwise the TERMS of the divine kingdom/marriage covenant which on this occasion had been instituted by Jesus in 33 CE were now in the process of being completely violated on the part of the theocratically appointed spiritual shepherds. (Lu 22:29) (2 Th 2:1-10) By extension, what up until then had qualified as the Christ or "body of many members" or spirit anointed ones (Strong's #5547) (1 Cor 3:16 12:12) in Jehovah's "temple" or earthly "sanctuary," was NOW beginning to qualify as the "ANTI-Christ" or SUBSTITUTE/REPLACEMENT anointing which would NOW emanate from the DEMONS. (Da 11:30-32) (Strong's #473) What HAD qualified as the FIFTH of the "seven times" that God's kingdom would manifest itself in the form of "Babylon the Great" was NOW beginning to qualify as the "GREAT HARLOT" or otherwise Babylon the Great in a spiritually "FALLEN" and demon infested condition. (Re 18:4) (Da 4:23, 30)

Yes if the anointed "virgins" now wish to be "AWAY from the face of the "SERPENT" (Re 12:4) that now occupies Jehovah's "sanctuary" or "temple" (which now qualifies as the appointed spiritual shepherds THEMSELVES) (1 Cor 3:16), then for the FIFTH of the "seven" foretold "times," any and all REPENTANT and OBEDIENT members of the anointed are once again required to "FLEE" or "separate themselves" from what is NOW an "APOSTATE nation" or even a "disgusting thing that causes desolation." (Mt 24:15, 16) (Da 11:31) (Isa 10:6) That is unless they would now choose to remain as the figurative "Jezebel" portion of the "Great harlot" as opposed to the repentant and cooperative "Rahab" portion. (Jos 2:1)

Agape love;

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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#16 Post by Harpo » 2 weeks ago

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

In the NT Babylon can only mean a few things. Literal Babylon, confusion, or false religion.

The word 'great' means large. The term "Babylon the Great" simply implies A LARGE FALSE RELIGION.

"Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters... So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."


John is taken by the Spirit into the wilderness which is better translated "the desert," to be shown the judgment of the great whore (Islam). The Desert is where Mecca and Medina reside. Many interpreters speculate this woman is Rome, but Rome doesn't reside in the desert. Some speculate she is "the apostate Church," but I see no credible evidence that any church or conglomeration of churches would commit "the abominations of the earth.

Islam has been called "the desert religion." It gave birth to the many jihadist sects across the earth. The birthplace of Babylon the Great and the Whore of Babylon is in the desert of Arabia a place called Mecca and Medina.

The woman "sits upon" the 7 headed 10 horned beast. The words "sit upon" mean to occupy. This indicates that the woman's false religion of Islam 'occupies or is the dominate religion of' the seven headed ten horned empire of this beast. The woman represents Islam or "Babylon the Great," and her cup is filled by her jihadist sects who commit the abominations of the earth.

This beast is a complete end-time entity. It is not a progression of world empires.

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