What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

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Get out of her
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What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#1 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Jerome wrote:
Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was dismayed for a while, and his thoughts alarmed him. The king answered and said, “Belteshazzar, let not the dream or the interpretation alarm you.” Belteshazzar answered and said, “My lord, may the dream be for those who hate you and its interpretation for your enemies! The tree you saw, which grew and became strong, so that its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth, whose leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which beasts of the field found shade, and in whose branches the birds of the heavens lived— it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong. Your greatness has grown and reaches to heaven, and your dominion to the ends of the earth. And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze, in the tender grass of the field, and let him be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven periods of time pass over him,’ this is the interpretation, O king: It is a decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king, that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will. And as it was commanded to leave the stump of the roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be confirmed for you from the time that you know that Heaven rules. Therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to you: break off your sins by practicing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed, that there may perhaps be a lengthening of your prosperity.” All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar.
(Dan 4:19-28 ESV)
Just reading this prophecy, clearing your mind of any preconceived ideas and sticking with what is clearly stated, what conclusions can be drawn?What is "Babylon the Great" when "standing" and "fallen"?
All of us are probably familiar with the fact that the scriptures speak of the "fall" of Babylon the Great. Did we ever stop to think however of the obvious fact that for something to be able to fall it must first be in a standing position? Were you aware that the scriptures speak also (even directly) of this same entity existing in a standing position as opposed to merely a fallen one? This of course would beg the question which I have used as the title of this thread. I will be covering this information in relative depth under this topic as its importance cannot be overstated, and particularly in view of the fact that I personally have never even heard of this information being covered before, let alone having actually witnessed it. Obviously there is still an ongoing debate over exactly what Babylon the Great actually is. I would propose that if we can scripturally establish exactly what comprises this entity in a standing position, it would correspondingly make it much easier to determine what it becomes when it falls. As always however this would require us to simply allow God's written word to speak for itself while completely tuning out all the chatter involved with the teachings of mere men.

Many of us might be at least somewhat familiar with various descriptions found in the scriptures of what comprises Babylon the Great in a fallen condition. If you happen to be a former or even currently active JW however, you are likely fixated exclusively on the ones found in Revelation 18:2 where we learn that this fall has resulted in her becoming "a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird." Interestingly the fall of this entity recorded in Chapter 14 (yes there is more than one fall of "Babylon the Great") immediately follows with an indication that this event has created the very same wild beast that will soon now begin to "mislead those who dwell on the earth" and "tell them to make an image to the wild beast…" (Re 13:14) But did we ever stop to consider that this would indicate that PRIOR to this fall, Babylon the Great did NOT fit this description?

It is most certainly quite important to take note of the fact that not one but TWO of these "falls" are covered prophetically in the things listed to accompany the "seventh trumpet" alone, or final foretold battle cry for the spiritual nation during what the prophet Daniel refers to as the "seven times." (Re 11:15 14:8 18:2) (Da 4:23) It is also important to note that these "falls" do not represent the destruction of this entity, even if they do indeed lead to it. Quite to the contrary, the scriptures clearly bear out that for a time these "falls" actually create a NEW entity which once again is also in fact mentioned directly after the fall covered in Chapter 14 of Revelation. This is namely the "wild beast and its image." (Re 14:8, 9)

This "image" we soon discover is later described symbolically in Chapter 17 as a seven headed wild beast with ten horns along with a kind of "harlot" sitting on top. (Re 17:3, 5) If these "falls" DID in fact constitute the destruction of this entity, there would of course be no need for God's people to now "get out" of it and be on their guard against now "worshipping" it. (Re 14:9, 10 18:4) No, rather this fallen condition is mentioned among other things as resulting in this entity now becoming demon infested! (Re 18:2) This alone would certainly account for the divine warning against now worshipping this new creation as well as "getting out of her." I will insist nevertheless that regardless of whether Babylon the Great exists in a fallen or standing condition, it was NEVER to be an object of worship for God's true people. Moreover I will continue producing scriptural evidence that Babylon the Great actually was destined to both stand and fall basically a total of "seven times" corresponding to the foretold number of times that God's appointed shepherding class would "act wickedly against the covenant" and even "leave the holy covenant" which always established them as a nation to begin with. (Da 11:30-32) But aside from all this, did it ever occur to you that among other things this would mean that PRIOR to this "fall," Babylon the Great would NOT have been demon infested?

I have been endeavoring to demonstrate scripturally for a few years now that Babylon the Great is not only one in the same as the "antichrist," man of lawlessness," "son of destruction" etc., but is comprised of a three part entity identified in Revelation 16:13 as "the dragon, the wild beast, and the false prophet." However I have never yet pointed out that this is actually the case only when this entity exists in a fallen condition. When those identified here in Daniel as "leaving the holy covenant" accept the "consideration" of the "king of the north" just as illustrated/demonstrated with the way the ancient Judean kings accepted a spiritually adulterous alliance with the kingdom of Babylon, a substitution now occurs right amidst God's own house or earthly "sanctuary." (Da 11:32) (2 Ki 23:31-37 24:1) History bears out that his exchange results in God's nation being reduced to a mere puppet kingdom at best if it remains in existence AT ALL! Perhaps the most important thing we need to understand however is that this new vasselship becomes such not simply in a literal sense, but even a SPIRITUAL one! The prophet Daniel points out that what is identified here as the "constant feature" is now substituted with "the disgusting thing that causes desolation." Through reference scriptures we find that these apostasies and the resulting ominous entity that emerges from it is also identified with terms such as the "son of destruction," or the "man of lawlessness." (2 Th 2:1-5)

The Apostle John chooses the term "antichrist" for this entity which I recognize as the most fitting actually since right in line with Daniel 11:31, it literally means- replacement or substitute Christ. This in turn should help us to basically recognize that this "constant feature" mentioned here in Daniel that experiences this substitution is actually the CHRIST! (1 Joh 2:18) Bear in mind that the word Christ literally means-anointed one. In other words when this apostasy occurs and this exchange takes place in God's "sanctuary" or house, the spirit anointed shepherding class no longer exists AT ALL as any part of this picture whatsoever. Just as pointed out in accounts like Revelation 18:2, it is now replaced with a demonic entity referred to here in Daniel as "the disgusting thing that causes desolation." (Da 11:31)

These factors in turn might help us to better understand that this Christ or spirit anointed entity is now represented symbolically as "flying" or "fleeing to the wilderness." (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 12:6, 14) Only in this manner can this "woman" now be as it says here in Revelation—"away from the face of the serpent." We want to keep in mind that these words in Revelation 12 were not only prophetic, but written AFTER the resurrection of Jesus himself. So particularly in this case we want to think of the Christ in terms of simply spirit anointed ones. When we consider these "wings of the great eagle" that are now given to this "woman," we should note first of all that these very same wings were described not only as a feature of the first "wild beast" mentioned in Daniel chapter seven, (namely Babylon), but that they were REMOVED at the time of the "standing up" of this entity as well as the giving it the "heart of a man" as opposed to that of a beast. (Da 7:4) This might begin making even more sense when we are reminded of the fact that eagles were listed among the "unclean" animals under Mosaic Law. (Le 11:13) In fact the eagle specifically is identified here in Leviticus as a "loathsome" or even a "disgusting" bird. This terminology should remind us of the words found in Revelation 18:2 when it speaks of Babylon the Great also becoming the "lurking place of every unclean and hated bird." Are we beginning to see a stronger connection to Babylon the Great and God's own people?

When we consider things like the fact that the Christ is replaced with the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" when these apostasies of the shepherding class occur, do we imagine that this symbolic spiritual language was just a coincidence? (Da 11:32) Compare (Da 4:33 9:27) (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 12:14 18:2) Yes we need to recognize the fact that throughout this entire foretold "seven times" period, not only is there a direct connection between Babylon the Great and God's own "woman," but that on each occasion that she falls into spiritual adultery she will BEAR the guilt or responsibility of this apostasy (as if wearing the wings of an "unclean and hated bird" ) EVEN if she now proves herself a "faithful and discreet virgin" and successfully makes it through her newly assigned spiritual cleansing or "baptism of holy spirit and fire." (Re 18:2) (Mt 3:11)

In other words just as demonstrated by their exemplar, even the newly selected spirit anointed ones ("virgins") (Mt 25:1, 2) who are now deemed as having successfully carried out their assigned ministry to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" ("Christ's brothers/domestics") in this spiritual "wilderness," must continue to accept the full responsibility of this broken marriage covenant and now sacrifice their fleshly bodies as atonement for this great apostasy. (Mt 10: 5, 6 24:45 25:40) Only then can the marriage covenant once again be renewed and the spiritual nation be given back its theocratic power and authority. (He 9: 16-18 22) As long as we are still dealing with this foretold "seven times" period, it is at this exact moment that the "wild beast" is once again "stood up upon its feet" and given the "heart of a man." (Da 7:4) In other words while God's people might for the time being remain in their figurative "Babylonian captivity" in a LITERAL sense, they are once again not in this bondage in a SPIRITUAL one, until the time they once again fall into spiritual "harlotry."

Have we ever stopped to consider however that this sudden change in demonic status might also have a dramatic effect on the foreign nations that played host to God's people over the millenniums? In other words, other than the obvious fact that these nations would now be in line for essentially the same punishment or even "desolations" coming to God's rebellious people, might this indicate that up until this moment they were actually free from demonic infestation as well? (Da 9:26) Could this perhaps begin to provide a clue as to what exactly comprises Babylon the Great not only in a "standing" position, but even as it describes here in Chapter 7 of Daniel as being "given the heart of a man" as opposed to that of a "beast." (Da 7:4)

Yes the scriptures DO in fact speak even directly of this "standing" of what I will insist is not simply Babylon, but even "Babylon the Great!" (Da 4:30 7:4) So what exactly then would constitute Babylon the Great in a "standing" position, and for that matter even with possessing "the heart of a man," as well as even having these "loathsome" or "unclean" "WINGS PLUCKED OUT"? I realize this is likely a completely new concept to most if not all the people reading this commentary, and that it even might seem rather outrageous. However I can assure you I am only just getting started with the scriptural evidence that begins to point us in this direction. Please consider the following questions:

Isn't it interesting that this foretold march of "wild beasts" in the Bible not only begins with a mention of this term "seven times," but also with the term "Babylon the Great"? Is there a connection here that we perhaps have overlooked until now? (Da 4:23, 30)

Why is it exactly that the very first of these beasts is strongly associated with the concept of "standing up," while the final seventh is so strongly connected with the thought of FALLING DOWN! (Re 14:8 18:2)

Would it make any sense at all for us to imagine for example the Medo-Persian king Cyrus (the founder of the second of these foretold seven kingdoms involved with God's people) being surrounded by demons while simultaneously being identified by God as his "anointed one"? (Isa 45:1) Or could we perhaps imagine that king Ahasuerus of Persia was constantly plagued with demonic presence after getting married to Esther, appointing her as queen and her Jewish uncle Mordecai as second in command over the entire kingdom?

To be continued:

Get out of her
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#2 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Does this mean that persons such as King Nebuchadnezzar or King Cyrus were worshippers of Yahawah? The scriptures actually indicate just the opposite. Nonetheless these were rulers who at some point not only learned that Yahawah was the supreme God of the universe, but accordingly began to demonstrate much more respect for him as well as his people. (Da 4:25 34-37) I will insist however that we will never fully grasp the symbolic spiritual language involved with prophecies such as this until we understand that regardless of the current spiritual status of God's covenant people; as long as they would be in this foretold captivity, they and their captors are considered by God as ONE ENTITY. In this context or setting of "seven times" or "Babylonian captivity," God's Theocratic shepherding class is either simply a "woman" being hosted by a foreign world power with a "heart of a man" or she is a "harlot" sitting atop a demon infested "wild beast" while BOTH of them suddenly bear "wings" of a "disgusting" and "unclean bird"! (Re 17:1-3)

In other words we want to begin thinking in terms of Nebuchadnezzar's sudden lapse in humility as simultaneously representing that also of God's appointed shepherding class. (Da 4:30) This account should remind us in fact that ancient Moses was recorded to have basically committed the very same prideful sin of Nebuchadnezzar as found in Daniel 4:30. Compare (Nu 20:9-12) Correspondingly he was to now suffer a severe penalty for it. At the moment this wicked and prideful act of violating the marriage covenant is performed between these two entities, they are ALREADY considered by God as one entity. The only real difference now is that this entity is "FALLEN." It is now suddenly a demon infested "wild beast" that "speaks as a dragon" with a spiritual "harlot" or "false prophet" sitting atop! (Re 16:13 17:3)

This is exactly what accounts for scriptures such as Revelation 11:8 where we find that first century Israel or Judea was NOT identified as such by God, but rather as "in a spiritual sense Sodom and Egypt, where their lord was also impaled." This in turn can help us to grasp the fact that it was indeed a form of actual THEOCRATIC rulership that was being represented symbolically by king Nebuchadnezzar himself here in the fourth chapter of Daniel. (Da 4:20-23) As long as this "seven times" period would remain in effect, theocratic power and authority upon the earth would consist of God's appointed shepherding class and its foreign host nation as ONE ENTITY either in a standing position "with a heart of a man," or a fallen one with a heart of a "wild beast." Moreover the PUNISHMENT for this fall would ALSO befall them as ONE ENTITY. Just as Israel (whether fleshly or spiritual) would now lose its status as a nation and even suffer outright destruction with this adulterous betrayal of their marriage covenant with God, such was also the case with the foreign nation playing host to it! This is exactly why these "seven times" would involve seven separate "kings" or "heads" of the "wild beast." (Re 17:9) The pre-existing "system of things" would now come to a "conclusion," and a new foreign nation (or at least a new manifestation of an older one) would begin playing host to what would very soon qualify once again as a completely new or reborn theocratic nation. (Mt 13:39) This would prove to be the foretold cycle of "seven times" destined to befall the "Nebuchadnezzar" or "Babylon the Great"" entity before the captive and relatively fragile and weak "kingdom of the son of his love" would finally be fully manifested with the Millennial Reign. (Col 1:13) This fragile condition of theocratic rulership would of course be due to the fact that its appointed shepherding class would continue to be composed of sinful and imperfect humans until this Babylonian captivity would be completed.

Yes I will submit that we need to begin thinking in terms of exactly what it was that comprised or constituted ancient Babylon at the exact moment that king Nebuchadnezzar referred to it, not as Babylon, but "Babylon the Great." (Da 4:30) Doing so will most assuredly begin helping us to understand not only exactly what this entity actually is, but even how it differs upon standing up verses falling down. You see there is a direct connection between the foretold apostasies of God's nation, the "seven times," and Babylon the Great. By coming to a better understanding of these connections I will insist that we will find not only that this entity would actually both stand and fall basically "seven" foretold times, but also things like the fact that it only qualifies as the "antichrist" or "son of destruction" when it FALLS! The implications of this are absolutely tremendous! Why would I insist this is the case?

Well to mention just a few reasons, this information first of all should shine much light on our current situation like suddenly waking up to the realization that the religious organization we were so long a devoted member of is not at all what we had long imagined. How exactly do I now put things like this in perspective and actually move forward instead of remaining with this horrible empty feeling as if I am among "the LOST sheep of the house of Israel," "skinned and thrown about like sheep WITHOUT a shepherd." (Mt 9:36 10:6) Now that I am aware of the fact that my religion at some point became involved with false teachings and false worship, am I to begin imagining that some other religion must therefore be involved in TRUE worship? Would that not be qualifying us as even a "foolish virgin," as opposed to a "faithful, wise and discreet" one? (Mt 25:1, 2) Was it not always the case that when God's true nation fell into apostasy there was no longer ANY true religion on the earth? Would it not be much wiser to now begin relying strictly upon the scriptures along with constant prayer?

Yet another thing a better knowledge of both the standing and falling of Babylon the Great should help us to understand is that there is an ENOURMOUS difference between "the kingdom of the son of his love" as opposed to the full manifestation of God's kingdom what we can expect to experience very soon with the actual Millennial Reign. (Col 1:13) It will help us to come to terms with why exactly we are not ALREADY experiencing this reign but instead what only appears to be a full fledged apostasy of the only organization we perhaps ever even IMAGINED was comprised of God's people! So what exactly WAS ancient Babylon comprised of at the exact moment that Nebuchadnezzar referred to it as "Babylon the Great?

We should bear in mind that at the time King Nebuchadnezzar referred to his Babylonian kingdom as "Babylon the Great, this world power was playing host to WHAT ACTUALLY WAS God's covenant people. The prophet Daniel and his "companions" had already been APPOINTED to extremely prominent and powerful positions in the kingdom. This was a symbolic representation of the fact that the marriage covenant that had been broken by king Jehoahaz and Jehoiakim had now been renewed. These Babylonian captives were actually now Israelites once again as it was always the marriage covenant or law covenant that constituted them as such. Yes they were still "captives" in a literal sense, but no longer in a SPIRITUAL one! THIS is basically the difference between the "kingdom of the son of his love" and the FULL manifestation of it that we will soon experience.

At the moment that Nebuchadnezzar spoke these words found at Daniel 4:30 the Jews actually WERE once again God's people and as such NOBODY could now lay even a finger on them without suffering serious repercussions, especially not the DEMONS! (Zec 2:8) Just as had been illustrated already as far back as with the Hebrews in ancient Egypt, Yahawah not only would now greatly bless his own people, but also the foreign nation that played HOST to them! Moreover these blessings and protections would REMAIN as long as the marriage covenant remained in tact and the appointed shepherds continued to respect the line between paying the figurative "Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to God." (Mt 22:21)

Unfortunately however this situation of Babylon the Great in a "standing" condition with "the heart of a man" never seemed to last very long. I will insist that we are at this very moment experiencing the extremely dire consequences of the final foretold time that this marriage covenant would be broken and Babylon the Great would correspondingly "fall." (Jer 8:11) So am I admitting here that this foretold cycle of "seven times" or seven falls of Babylon the Great was NOT accompanied with a 2,520 year time frame? Not at all! Once again there was foretold to be a final "EIGHTH KING" that "would SPRING from the seven." (Re 17:11) This time calculation encompassed ONLY the Judean entity or strictly the shepherding class of God's people. It DID NOT cover the Samaritan entity or flock facet of God's nation. This ten tribe entity along with its "eighth king" (ONE ENTITY as always) is exactly what is being dealt with even at this very moment which is exactly why this seven headed beast of Revelation is represented with ten horns as opposed to the two horned entity we find in Chapter 13. The good news however is that this is the final stage of the final "time" that this event was foretold to occur. We can now look forward not only to the next and final foretold renewal of the marriage covenant, but even in a setting in which we will suffer neither spiritual captivity nor LITERAL! This renewal of the marital covenant is exactly what is being represented symbolically in scriptural accounts such as Matthew 25:10 where we read about the final events involved with the "signs of the times."

Looking forward as always to your thoughts regardless of whether they are positive or negative.

Agape love;

Sol

Kosonen
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#3 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Revelation17:18 And the woman (Babylon the Great) whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the the kings of the earth.

Here the Bible does not give the real name of the great city. But it says that it is a great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Fore someone who knows how the political system of the world has worked for the last 100 years it is not difficult to identify that city.

Revelation 17:18 is in my opinion the clue to identify Babylon the Great.

Get out of her
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#4 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Hello again Kosonen and thank you for your comments.

From what you say here I suppose one could gather that you have a different point of view on the identity of Babylon the Great than the one I am sharing. However until you actually state exactly what that viewpoint is I don't really see how anyone could respond to your post.

I'm hoping you might perhaps be a bit less mysterious about specifically what you recognize as comprising Babylon the Great, as well as how its identity would be affected by whether it would be in a standing verses a fallen condition.

Agape love;

Sol

Kosonen
Posts: 321
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#5 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Get out of her wrote:
2 years ago
Hello again Kosonen and thank you for your comments.

From what you say here I suppose one could gather that you have a different point of view on the identity of Babylon the Great than the one I am sharing. However until you actually state exactly what that viewpoint is I don't really see how anyone could respond to your post.

I'm hoping you might perhaps be a bit less mysterious about specifically what you recognize as comprising Babylon the Great, as well as how its identity would be affected by whether it would be in a standing verses a fallen condition.

Agape love;

Sol
Hello Sol, I am glad that you are interested to dig more into this subject. A few years back I studied diligently about NWO and secret societies and what they have done and what their goal is and from where they operate. And the last 100+ years they have been concentrated in New York. For example the Federal Reserve bank is owned by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. So there are many reasons that make me believe New York to be Babylon the Great. A history teacher Leonard Ulrich has made a 2+hour video that explains all these facts and he also came to the same conclusion about Babylon the Great.
Check this out, and at 1 hour 58 minute he talks about Babylon the Great.



But about Babylon the Great standing or fallen? I have yet not full understanding how and exactly when Babylon the Great will be destroyed in relation to 1260 or 1290 or 1335 days mentioned in Daniel.

With best regards

jo-el
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#6 Post by jo-el » 2 years ago

Hi Sol
Obviously you know from the past that I can't agree with all of the connections that you yourself make in your thoughts. For example, I definitely do not see any reason now to believe that JW's represented God's appointed ones. I'm now aware of many many Christian traditions which tell far less lies to their people and stand upon Christ and the Gospel alone - that is reason enough really. However, again as in the past, I do believe there are at least some keys/clues in your posts here.

For example, I hold 2 main competing views about the beast entities and they are broadly similar from different angles. I think what you say about the 2 + 10 horns vs 2 + 10 tribes is an astute observation. The only problem is that Revelation gives the interpretation of Ten horns as Ten kings waiting for a kingdom, whereas Israel had one king over Ten tribes as it were so there seems to be a difference in the illustration to me.

Also I don't think that parsing the foolish and wise Virgins as membership or not in a particular "religion" would be accurate.

But on the place "becoming" a dwelling place of demons and hateful birds I think that might be something we need to pay more attention to as well.

Thanks

Get out of her
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Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#7 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Jo-el wrote:
Obviously you know from the past that I can't agree with all of the connections that you yourself make in your thoughts. For example, I definitely do not see any reason now to believe that JW's represented God's appointed ones. I'm now aware of many many Christian traditions which tell far less lies to their people and stand upon Christ and the Gospel alone - that is reason enough really. However, again as in the past, I do believe there are at least some keys/clues in your posts here.
Thank you Jo-el for your follow-up on what I happen to recognize as one of the most important topics we could possibly be involved in discussing at this time. I'd like to address your expressions one paragraph at a time and particularly since what you say here indicates to me that I have failed to make my understandings on certain things clear.

I hope you realize I never imagine that people hang on to my every word (so to speak), but I have pointed out on more than one occasion that I DO NOT recognize the JW organization as EVER having constituted "God's appointed ones." This term "appointed ones" would only apply to the Judean entity or more specifically what I recognize as symbolically prefiguring the spirit anointed ones during the relatively brief periods that they would actually RECEIVE as well as MAINTAIN (by avoiding apostasy) divinely appointed theocratic authority over the Samaritan or flock entity. It is actually the latest foretold manifestation of the flock or Samaritan entity that I associate the JW organization with, and by extension this would mean that I do not identify them DIRECTLY with the International Bible Students. With that in mind there are several things I feel compelled to remind ones such as yourself of:

Firstly, the scriptures point out that when God's true nation falls into apostasy, it actually becomes 'WORSE" than its surrounding "nations" or what I largely recognize as being used in the scriptures to prefigure/symbolically represent various religions. (2 Chr 33:9) Secondly, you might recall that the ancient ten tribe Samaritan representation was prefigured as not only getting off to an abismal start after becoming separated from its Judean counterpart, but only getting worse from there.

When I personally compare modern history with scriptural prophecy, I am seeing two back to back apostasies of the appointed shepherding class in the general time frame of the late 1800s and early 1900s. (Re 11:7, 11-13) The fallout or even "harvests" associated with these foretold events I in turn identify with the first and second World Wars since the scriptures even DIRECTLY link these apostasies not only with a "harvest" (resurrection of the "first ripe fruits"), but simultaneously with a "conclusion of a system of things" or "end of an age." (Mt 13:39) (1 Cor 15:20-23)

When I look at things from this perspective I actually am very inclined to associate the first of these back to back apostasies with the William Miller movement and the second with the International Bible Students Association. In connection with the latter of these two, the scriptures indicate that this divinely appointed shepherding authority actually existed or lasted for a period identified as merely an "hour" from God's standpoint. (Re 11:13) Nevertheless there was now foretold to follow not only an "image" of the "wild beast" or "eighth king" from this sequence of events, but even a final fall of Babylon the Great. (Re 13:14 18:2) In other words, just as I am certain that the JW organization has indeed crawled atop the "wild beast" and fulfilled the final foretold apostasy or spiritually adulterous political alliance, I am equally certain that the current ominous international political/military picture we are now facing will soon result in WW3 or the final foretold "conclusion of a system of things." (Mt 13:39)

These factors alone would clearly indicate to me that the accumulated flock of this shepherding entity or its figurative Samaritan counterpart (ten tribe or "ten horned" entity) would have continued on for a brief time afterward and by extension would have factored in to the final foretold fall as well as destruction of Babylon the Great. (Re 17:3) Scriptural accounts such as Zechariah 11 in fact seem to confirm these things and particularly since in the case of the ancient FLESHLY nation, the sequence of events or apostasies described here actually occurred in REVERSE. (Zech 11:7-11) If you recall, ancient Samaria actually succumbed to complete apostasy as well as foreign captivity PRIOR to its Judean or shepherding counterpart.
For example, I hold 2 main competing views about the beast entities and they are broadly similar from different angles. I think what you say about the 2 + 10 horns vs 2 + 10 tribes is an astute observation. The only problem is that Revelation gives the interpretation of Ten horns as Ten kings waiting for a kingdom, whereas Israel had one king over Ten tribes as it were so there seems to be a difference in the illustration to me.
Whether this Samaritan entity be represented as ten shieks, ten tribal chieftains, ten horns, ten kings, all the nations, people of the nations, those who dwell upon the earth, etc.; in the end I believe there are at least three or four very important things we need to bear in mind: First of all, ultimately this scriptural terminology should be recognized as symbolic spiritual language, and perhaps all the more so when we get to Revelation as it is explicitly identified as being written in "signs." (Re 1:1)

Secondly, a closer inspection of all the reference scriptures to such terms ultimately begins pointing not so much to literal or actual nations themselves, but more specifically to a "great crowd OUT OF all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues..." or otherwise (once again) the spiritual FLOCK of God's nation as opposed to its appointed shepherding class. (Re 7:9) (Ge 48:19)

Thirdly, during the periods when this flock or Samaritan entity is CONNECTED to its true shepherding or figurative Judean counterpart, or otherwise is in an approved spiritual standing with God, it by extension/association (albeit indirectly) DOES posses not only a kingly authority, but even ones associated more with priestly, shepherding, and even judging authority. A closer study of all the various symbolism's assigned to the different tribes begins to shed more light on this. For example those found in Genesis 49. This in fact brings me to your following objection:
"The only problem is that Revelation gives the interpretation of Ten horns as Ten kings waiting for a kingdom, whereas Israel had one king over Ten tribes as it were so there seems to be a difference in the illustration to me."
This severing or loss of divine approval that always comes with the spiritually adulterous alliance formed with the "wild beast" as represented here in Revelation 17 is EXACTLY the reason that this "ten horned" entity is now identified as LACKING this "kingdom" or kingly authority. (Re 17:12) Until it is once again reunited with its figurative Judean or legitimate shepherding counterpart by means of the final foretold "harvest of the firstfruits" or what we already know to be directly associated with the final "conclusion of the system of things," ANY semblance of authority AT ALL that could be attributed to it would be exactly that which is identified here in verse 12 of Revelation 17, namely:-"authority as kings one hour with the "WILD BEAST." In turn we already know that by virtue of its new bedfellow, the only authority that this APOSTATE entity would EVER have would be that given by "the dragon." (Re 13:2) (Mt 13:39)
Also I don't think that parsing the foolish and wise Virgins as membership or not in a particular "religion" would be accurate.
This would be yet another comment that makes me feel misunderstood. First of all, when God's one true nation or people commit spiritual "harlotry" or adulterously break the marriage contract that establishes them as God's people in the first place, there basically IS NO TRUE RELIGION on the earth at that point. This setting of national apostasy is the ONLY context in fact that these "foolish and discreet virgins" can even exist in. The reason that these spiritual 'virgins" are so intent on making it to the "marriage feast" or otherwise qualifying as ones that God's covenant could be re-established with is basically so that true religion can once again EXIST on the earth. (Mt 25:10) In the meantime, just as demonstrated/illustrated also in the first century with ones such as "Apollos of Alexandria," (evidently of Greek descent while actually being a native of Egypt), these prospective new shepherds could come from ANY background, religious or otherwise. (1 Cor 6:9) Nevertheless the prophetic patterns clearly and consistently indicate the following two things:

One; particularly in view of the fact that God is identified as being "a God not of disorder but of peace," he has only ever hosted ONE religion or organized form of worship at any given time. (1 Co 14:33) The word religion basically means -organized form of worship, and it was exactly that which was ALWAYS demonstrated with God's nation whether fleshly or spiritual. Two; just as demonstrated also in the first century with even Jesus himself, the MAJORITY of the newly anointed ones or "virgins" who must now once again qualify themselves as future appointed shepherds by successfully navigating the next "baptism of holy spirit and fire," would indeed come from the very same religion or nation that had fallen into apostasy to begin with. And with that I would conclude by asking you to please consider the following question:

In our modern times, could you please tell me if you are aware of any other international religious group (other than the JW organization) that was even IN A POSITION to commit this foretold spiritual "harlotry" or otherwise crawl atop the "wild beast" with a spiritually adulterous alliance? You see one of the main reasons that I was associated for many years with this religion is because it was the ONLY "Christian" religion I was even aware of that was at least TEACHING political neutrality to its constituents. All the others seemed to actually PROMOTE things like taking political office or engaging in the military. Obviously you could not suddenly BECOME a part of Satan's political system if you had already ALWAYS BEEN a part of it.
But on the place "becoming" a dwelling place of demons and hateful birds I think that might be something we need to pay more attention to as well.
The more I personally delve into this particular aspect of the prophesies connected to the "seven times" and Babylon the Great and the way it begins to better explain things, the more I wholeheartedly concur with your view on this.

Agape love;

Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 969
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#8 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

Kosonen wrote:
Hello Sol, I am glad that you are interested to dig more into this subject. A few years back I studied diligently about NWO and secret societies and what they have done and what their goal is and from where they operate. And the last 100+ years they have been concentrated in New York. For example the Federal Reserve bank is owned by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. So there are many reasons that make me believe New York to be Babylon the Great. A history teacher Leonard Ulrich has made a 2+hour video that explains all these facts and he also came to the same conclusion about Babylon the Great.
Hello again Kosonen and thank you for getting more specific about what your views actually are on this subject. I'm hoping you realize however that this information you are producing is at least largely in support of exactly what I'm trying to convey here. Bear in mind I am insisting that the latest manifestation of what was prefigured with ancient Samaria or the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel has been the JW organization, and the latest manifestation of the "king" ("eighth king") (Re 17:11) that it crawled into bed with was the United Nations, both of which have their headquarters in New York. In fact the U.N. headquarters is even in the actual city of New York as opposed to merely the state. It is after all a "city" or even" the great city" mentioned in Revelation 17:18 that is under discussion here. I believe the real question however is whether or not the scriptures were EVER speaking about a LITERAL city in connection with this Babylon the Great entity? Or was it actually something much more significant that was in fact being REPRESENTED by this "city"?

You see while it is certainly true that the scriptures (particularly as found in Revelation) do also use the word "city" in connection with identifying "the woman" or even "Babylon the Great," I would begin by asking the following question: Do they produce ANY indication that this city should be understood by us as being literal? In fact do we find scriptural evidence of ANYTHING about this rather ominous looking prophetic picture found in Revelation 17 that would point to the idea of understanding it literally? Was this for example a literal "seven headed wild beast" spoken of here, or a literal "woman" or "harlot" sitting on top of it? For that matter was it a literal "dragon" that had earlier been mentioned as "giving" this entity its "power and authority." (Re 13:2b)

For my part I would respectfully suggest that all the evidence points to exactly what the Apostle John explicitly states in the opening words of Revelation, namely that this book was written "in signs" or was otherwise to be understood as completely symbolic. I often use the term "symbolic spiritual language" when I speak of the rather cryptic manner in fact that the ENTIRE Bible was written in. Moreover I hope you don't mind me drawing your attention to the fact that this "great city" spoken of here in Revelation 17:18 is in this case directed specifically and exclusively at the "woman," which of course comprises only a PORTION of this symbolic picture. While other verses admittedly seem to indicate that we could also use this term with reference to the entire entity described here, it would seem that in this case the objective was to focus our attention on identifying this "woman" herself in particular as found in this setting since the preceding verses are ALSO focusing only on identifying specific portions of this representation. (Re 17:9-18) So how might the fact that this "woman" is associated both with a "city" as well as a "harlot" possibly help us to confirm her true identity, and even perhaps what she was comprised of BEFORE she would be found in this setting of spiritual adultery or "fallen" condition?

We might find it interesting that BOTH of these terms ("city" or even "town" as well as "harlot" or "prostitute") can be found in OTHER scriptural accounts in connection with GOD'S OWN PEOPLE when they would fall into idolatry or false worship. (Isa 1:21) (Ez 23) Here in Ezekiel 23 we find there are actually TWO cities under discussion here being associated with spiritual harlotry, namely Jerusalem and Samaria. But once again, is a literal city capable of committing spiritual adultery, or was it actually what was REPRESENTED by these cities that had done so? I would suggest that the real question here would be what exactly was being represented by these two cities and how should this affect our understanding of what is being portrayed symbolically with this "great city" here in Revelation?

Both of these ancient cities were of course the Capitol cities of their respective kingdoms. Therefore they represented the AUTHORITY of these nations or more specifically the people who were actually in a position to BREAK THE MARRIAGE COVENANT that always established them as GOD'S PEOPLE in the first place. Just as pointed out in Isaiah 1:21, what had formerly been recognized by God as a "faithful city" or God's own covenant people in an approved standing with him, somehow suddenly much more resembled a "prostitute." A more careful study however of the history of God's covenant people actually reveals that regardless of how severe or prevalent this unfaithfulness became, God would continue to show tremendous patience and restraint until things reached the point where an actual /official alliance was formed between God's nation and one of the NATIONS whose God's they had begun to worship.

It was at this point that God not only considered his marital covenant as having been officially and completely broken, but that in both a literal and spiritual sense his nation had adulterously crawled atop a foreign "king" or nation as if choosing it as a substitution or replacement of he himself. This thought in turn might draw our attention to scriptures like Daniel 11:30-32 where it is exactly this concept of exchanging or replacing that is associated with "the ones leaving the holy covenant" while unfaithfully accepting "consideration" from a foreign king. (Da 11:31) Compare (Re 17:9, 10)

Now particularly when we consider that these events were also associated ultimately with "seven times," and that this "woman" could of course only sit atop one "mountain" or "king" at a time, I would submit that both the prophet Daniel and the Apostle John are in fact symbolically picturing the very same thing. (Da 4:23 11:30-32) (Re 17:9, 10) This is namely that over an extensive period of time, God's covenant people would be breaking this covenant with adulterous alliances between themselves and seven different foreign nations.

Jesus himself had of course arrived on the earthly scene in one of these exact settings in which God's covenant people had formed an adulterous alliance between themselves and the Roman world power. He made it perfectly clear that when things reach this point, God now "abandons" his earthly "house" or "sanctuary" altogether. (Mt 23:38) In turn we already know that when that happens the demons are now free to rush in and replace him. This had already been both illustrated in many different ways throughout the history of God's people and is once again exactly what is being depicted again here in verse 2 of Revelation 18 for the final foretold time. (Re 18:2)

This might even remind of how this very thing was illustrated in a prophetic mini-drama with the time that the ancient King Saul rebelled against God. At the very moment that God removed his holy spirit from him, it was pointed out that "a bad spirit from Yahawah began terrorizing him." (1 Sa 16:14) Once again the concept of a replacing or exchanging in this same context of spiritual unfaithfulness should call to mind scriptures like Daniel 11:31, as well as the fact that the word antichrist literally means- replacement or substitute Christ. Interestingly enough, the word Christ in turn literally means -anointed one.

Yes I will once again submit that when we think in terms of a "fallen" Babylon the Great, we want to think in terms of God's holy spirit and by extension his spirit anointed ones being removed from his house or earthly sanctuary and being replaced basically with the demons. This "constant feature" of God's kingdom however does in fact always remain "constant" even when replaced with the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" as this holy spirit is now transferred to the "shepherd BOY" or spiritual "virgin" entity just as ALSO represented in this very same account in 1 Samuel. (1 Sa 16:13) (Da 11:31) (Mt 25:1, 2) These are spiritual "virgins" as they have in this setting not yet arrived at the "marriage feast." The "marriage feast" is a symbolic representation of the moment that the broken marriage covenant is officially renewed with another resurrection or "harvest of the firstfruits." Married people are of course not "virgins."

Just as pictured symbolically also in Revelation 12 however, this new endowment of holy spirit will soon enable these "virgins" to "catch sight of the disgusting things that causes desolation standing in the holy place" with their new eyes of spiritual understanding and prompt them to "flee to the wilderness." (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 12:5:6, 14) Compare (1 Sa 19:18) This symbolic terminology is simply another way of saying what the Apostle Paul commanded of the Corinthian congregation when it had become the first to be completely overrun by the next foretold apostasy that he had continually been warning his brothers about. (1 Cor 6:17) Compare (Re 18:4)

No this has nothing to do with things like getting out of the Catholic Church and becoming a "Jehovah witness" as the JW hierarchy would have you believe. This is all about us understanding the fact that the next or in this case the FINAL foretold apostasy of GOD'S OWN NATION has officially been recognized by him as having indeed occurred and how this should now compel us to completely separate ourselves from it along with all its false teachings and practices. Just as the Apostle Paul points out in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, the next "presence of our Lord Jesus Christ...will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST and the man of lawlessness (or "disgusting thing") is revealed." In order to BECOME an apostate, you would of course first need to qualify at some point as a "faithful" one. Accordingly in order to ever qualify as the "Great Harlot," you would first need to qualify as "the faithful city." (Isa 1:21) Yes, this is all about God's own covenant people falling into spiritual adultery and actually being "DIVORCED" by God himself. (Isa 50:1) (Jer 3:8) We need to understand that whether we are speaking of ancient fleshly Israel, or the subsequent spiritual nation, when this occurs, there simply is no longer ANY ISRAELITES on the earth, until this broken marriage covenant is renewed or re-established with a repentant remnant of the nation.

You see on each and every occasion that this "constant feature" or spirit anointed ones (Christ) is "removed" from God's earthly sanctuary and the demonic "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is put in its place with apostasy, the spirit anointed "virgins" that "fled to the wilderness" must now prove successful or otherwise demonstrate themselves as "DISCREET virgins" by doing exactly what had been illustrated symbolically with ones like ancient Moses after initially fleeing from ancient Egypt all by himself. What exactly was that?

Moses REMAINED in this "wilderness" or exiled condition, completely AWAY from all false worship until the time that he became, not simply spirit anointed, or merely the shepherd of the figurative "flock of Jethro," (a symbolic representation of the ministry to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"), but rather APPOINTED by God to now serve actually as an official shepherd of ALL God's people. (Ex 3:1, 2-10) (Mt 10:5, 6)

Just as now illustrated with the new and astoundingly greater level of power and authority Moses would now experience as he returns to Egypt, this appointing (verses anointing) would prove to be very much like the sudden and dramatic difference Jesus' 12 disciples would experience after the "harvest of the firstfruits" or resurrection of Jesus in the first century. A dramatically increased level of Holy Spirit would suddenly transform them from mere bumbling "disciples" to actual apostles. Their newfound level of theocratic power and authority now would enable them to do things like actually write books of the Bible or even literally raise the dead!

We want to understand that when this phenomenon is witnessed for the final foretold time (and very soon to come), these apostles will also be "incorruptible and immortal." Moreover since the foretold "seven times" would have by now been completely fulfilled, they will not only be completely unencumbered with spiritual captivity involving this Babylon the Great entity, but even with respect to LITERAL captivity! These "kings and priests" will answer to NOBODY but Michael and the almighty Yahawah himself! These factors should help us to better understand scriptural passages like Daniel 12:3. And this actually brings me to your final comment:
But about Babylon the Great standing or fallen? I have yet not full understanding how and exactly when Babylon the Great will be destroyed in relation to 1260 or 1290 or 1335 days mentioned in Daniel.
I recently responded directly to one of your posts with my thoughts on your inquiries regarding the issue of the foretold "1,290 days." At the time however I don't recall you bringing up the "1, 260" mentioned in Revelation or the "1,335 days" mentioned in this very same 12th Chapter of Daniel. If you like I'd be happy to get into my understandings on this also, but the way you worded things here I'm wondering if you would like me to elaborate a bit more on ALL of these numbers? Moreover this topic might merit its own separate thread. Please let me know.

Agape love;

Sol

Kosonen
Posts: 321
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#9 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Get out of her wrote:
2 years ago
Kosonen wrote:
I believe the real question however is whether or not the scriptures were EVER speaking about a LITERAL city in connection with this Babylon the Great entity? Or was it actually something much more significant that was in fact being REPRESENTED by this "city"?

You see while it is certainly true that the scriptures (particularly as found in Revelation) do also use the word "city" in connection with identifying "the woman" or even "Babylon the Great," I would begin by asking the following question: Do they produce ANY indication that this city should be understood by us as being literal? In fact do we find scriptural evidence of ANYTHING about this rather ominous looking prophetic picture found in Revelation 17 that would point to the idea of understanding it literally? Was this for example a literal "seven headed wild beast" spoken of here, or a literal "woman" or "harlot" sitting on top of it? For that matter was it a literal "dragon" that had earlier been mentioned as "giving" this entity its "power and authority." (Re 13:2b)

For my part I would respectfully suggest that all the evidence points to exactly what the Apostle John explicitly states in the opening words of Revelation, namely that this book was written "in signs" or was otherwise to be understood as completely symbolic. I

Agape love;

Sol
Those questions are important to solve. Where do we draw the line, what is symbolic and what is literal? Helpful would be to compare to other parts of the Bible that have similar scriptures, but which also reveal the meaning.

Obviously the beasts are symbolic. And also the woman that ride it. In the book of Daniel it is easier. Daniel got to see visions of different beasts, but he was fortunate to get the explanations to what the beasts represent. He did not only get explanations to the beasts but also to other details of the beasts, for example the horns.

So then it makes it easier to understand what the beasts in Revelation represent.

As you mentioned the Bible has examples of women that represented cities. We can look at them and get some indication to solve what the woman with the name Babylon the Great means.
And fortunately like in the book of Daniel in the Revelation book we do not only see symbolic creatures, but we are provided with explanations. Like in this case, Revelation 17:18 where it says that the woman Babylon the Great represent a city that has power over the kings of the earth.

And in Revelation 12 the dragon is identified as Satan the Devil.

And look at how the city Nineveh is described, and it is very similar to Babylon the Great:
Nahum 3:1,4
1Woe to the city of bloodshed!
She is completely full of deception and robbery.
She is never without prey!
4 This is because of the many acts of prostitution of the prostitute,
She who is attractive and charming, a mistress of sorceries,
Who ensnares nations by her prostitution and families by her sorceries.


Best regards Jan

jo-el
Posts: 1123
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: What is Babylon the Great when "standing" and "fallen"?

#10 Post by jo-el » 2 years ago

New Jerusalem is also called a city and is the bride of Christ, made up of God's people who are united to Christ. In contrast Babylon is an adultress, united to the King's of the Earth. She has chosen the wrong Kingdom, but the fact she is pictured as a woman and a city I believe shows a contrast between the 2 kingdoms and Babylons concerns are the fine things of the world.

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