Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

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Stranger
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#11 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote,
The actual word "Armageddon" only occurs this once (Rev 16:16). But the ideas encompassed in the word and in the verse and context are not new, not by any stretch.
Hi Bobcat,

I can remember the witnesses always using the word (Har magedon) in their literature. According to Smith's Bible dictionary, the difference between Har magedon and Armageddon is that the Har means "hill" and the Ar means "city". It didn't say anything about Har magedon having only one d and Armageddon having two d's. (that's kinda interesting).

What I'm wondering is do the Witnesses still promote the usage of the word Har magedon?


Stranger

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#12 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Hi Stranger,

Here is footnote 54 from the NET on the word (copied from here):
tn Or “Harmagedon” (a literal transliteration of the Greek), or “Har-Magedon” (NASB), meaning “the Mount of Magedon” in Hebrew.

tc There are many variations in the spelling of this name among the Greek mss, although ῾Αρμαγεδών (harmagedōn) has the best support. The usual English spelling is Armageddon, used in the translation.
The NET has "Armageddon" in the main text. (Here are a few others: Rev 16:16 ESV; Rev 16:16 HCSB; Rev 16:16 NIV; Rev 16:16 KJV; Rev 16:16 NLT; Here are a bunch of others. The most favor "Armageddon" or "Armagedon." The Greek has an ' before the word (Ἁρμαγεδών). This is called an aspirate. It gives the equivalent of an "h" sound in the Greek. I don't think the KJV translators understood that. And thus, "Armageddon" (without the "H") became the norm in English. You can see the same problem with "Alleluia" in Rev 19:1 KJV. Compare with Rev 19:1 NET. Most translations seem to not want to be too different from the KJV where it's not so important.)

The older NWT tended towards the literal (at the expense of its use in the ministry, where people would question why JWs have a different Bible from the KJV - the same hard-headed reasoning that replaces "New Testament" with "Christian Greek Scriptures"), the newer one uses the more popular form (I'm guessing for its more recognizable use in the ministry - one less thing people would question about the NWT).


Bobcat

Stranger
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#13 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Amos wrote,
One of the major things that I've come to understand, is that the book of Revelation was in all pretenses fulfilled during the first century.

There is another major point to consider seriously; Revelation is written in the self same style & subject matter as many other non canonical texts of the period from circa 300 BCE to 200 AD. This was due to the Hellenization of Israel following the advent of Alexander & the subsequent break up of his kingdom following his death. The 2 kingdoms that affected Israel were, the Seleucid (king of the North) & the Ptolemies (king of the South). The influence of these 2 kingdoms substantially came to an end following the conquest of the entire area by Rome. Sadly, the Hellenization of thought, as learned by Israel continued well beyond that time. This is all historical fact.

The Hellenization brought to being the views of demonology, end times conflicts, & many other aspects of Pagan culture & worship.

This raises many serious concerns for me as to the authenticity of the book of Revelation itself. Revelation was NOT included in the Aramaic Peshita, along with 2 & 3 John, 2 Peter & Jude. When we consider ALL of these 5 books, it will be seen that they are ALL the same style of writing, commonly called Apocalyptic!
Both 1 John 1 Peter seem to carry a different message entirely to their later books, suggesting a different author to the first of the books given the title of 1 John 1 Peter. There has been much discussion about this for several centuries.
Hi Amos,

History has not been kind nor honest with us, at least not man's history or Satan's. Are you implying that we have been bamboozled with some of the Bible? I know that it can be very confusing at times, and that we have the father of the lie and his army residing amongst us, that we must stay aware of. When we question the Bible and doubt what it says, are we not conforming to the devices of the devil? With all the misinformation out there and all the lies that have been told, what is mere man's chances of knowing the truth? Satan thinks he can figure what Jehovah has already figured. He thinks he can out smart Jehovah, but try as he "may" he cant do it. He can portray a false image of himself doing it, and a lot of people don't know the difference.



Stranger, (1Cor 14:31)

Stranger
Posts: 1901
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#14 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote,
. This is called an aspirate. It gives the equivalent of an "h" sound in the Greek.

Hi Bobcat,

I would assume it boils down to linguistics and spelling!

The "aspirate" can also be used in codified language, for example, some of the hell's angels (the biker gang) would get tattoos of the letters A.J.'s which stand for H.A.'s.

If you say A-J real fast and H-A real fast with aspiration it sounds exactly the same. But as we know it is not the same.



Stranger, (James 3:3)

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#15 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Stranger wrote:
I would assume it boils down to linguistics and spelling!
Indeed, it does.


For any interested, a list of Biblical references to Megiddo and its surrounding area (which includes many provided by "Stranger" - thanks!):

Joshua 12:21 – Israelites led by Joshua defeat the king of Megiddo.

Joshua 17:11 – Tribal borders for Asher and Manasseh defined.

Judges 1:27 - Manasseh fails to drive out the inhabitants of Megiddo.

Judges 5:19 - Deborah and Barak's song of victory over the kings of Canaan.

1 Kings 9:15; 10:26 – One of Solomon’s chariot cities.

2 Kings 9:27 – Ahaziah, king of Judah, dies in Megiddo after being wounded on his chariot and escaping to the city.

2Ki 23:29-30; 2 Chronicles 35:22 – King Josiah dies in a battle near Megiddo.

1 Chronicles 7:29 - A listing of property of Ephraim's descendants.

Zechariah 12:11 – Weeping will be great for “the one they have pierced” in Jerusalem. Similar to weeping in Megiddo [for Josiah].

Revelation 16:16 – The kings gathered to “Armageddon,” (or Har-Megiddo), traditional location of “Battle of Armageddon.”

And the Wikipedia article on it here.


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 1901
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#16 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Hi Bobcat,

Here are a few more

2Ki 23:29,30
Judges 1:27
Judges 5:19
1Chr 7:29


For some reason I was thinking that Abram met Melchizedek in the Valley of Megiddo, but that was the Valley of "Shaveh". (Gen 14:17,18)

Thanks for all your insight Bobcat, and that goes for everyone else as well!


Stranger

Bobcat
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#17 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Thanks Stranger for making the list more complete!

Bobcat

lynchpin
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#18 Post by lynchpin » 1 year ago

Interesting topic and thanks Stranger for bringing it up to date.

Some years ago it was called a 'situation' by Jw org in that -

'Armageddon is the worldwide situation (Jeremiah 25:32,33) in which the nations assemble in their last stand against rule by God'.
Whether they still term it as such I'm not sure.


Perhaps it could be so in that today's wars refer to the 'situation' in whatever country/countries are involved in war?

Get out of her
Posts: 942
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#19 Post by Get out of her » 1 year ago

Amos wrote:
Armageddon is only mentioned ONCE in the entire bible; Rev. 16:16.
One of the major things that I've come to understand, is that the book of Revelation was in all pretenses fulfilled during the first century.
Bobcat wrote:
The actual word "Armageddon" only occurs this once (Rev 16:16). But the ideas encompassed in the word and in the verse and context are not new, not by any stretch.
The idea that Jehovah would gather all the nations against His people for a final confrontation occurs a number of times in the OT Scriptures: For example, Ezek 38:1-9; Zech 14:1-2.
Bobcat is absolutely correct in his statements here and more, and is standing on very solid scriptural ground. In fact while the Apostle John happens to use the term Armageddon here in Revelation 16:16 when prophesying about this particular occasion on which God would express his wrath upon his enemies, in other passages he uses the term "the great day of God the almighty," "bowl of God's anger," or even "hour of his judgment." (Re 14:7 16:1) Moreover in OTHER books of the Bible, ones such as Paul or even Jesus himself opt for terms such as "day of Jehovah" or "a conclusion of a system of things" in connection with these foretold times of Jehovah's vengeance against his enemies. (2 Th 2:1-3) (Mt 13:39)

As we can see here in these last two scriptures alone, these occasions of God's wrath upon his enemies are synonymous both with "apostasies" of his appointed shepherding class as well as the subsequent "harvests" of these very same "firstfruits" that are always required to restore the "kingdom covenants" which are always broken with these "apostasies." (Lu 22:29) (He 9:16-18) This is precisely the reason the earth experienced the conclusion of the Jewish system of things a few decades after the "harvest of the firstfruits" (death and resurrection of Jesus himself on this occasion) or spiritual cleansing (baptism) and rebirth ("coming") of the nation/kingdom that occurred in 33 CE. (Col 1:13) (Re 14:4 20:6)

This information alone already produces a CONUNDRUM of problems with the notion of Revelation being fulfilled completely in the first century. The first problem here would be the fact that the Apostle John happens to be uttering this prophecy of Revelation at the very END of the first century. This fact alone would absolutely preclude the possibility of all its prophecies being fulfilled WITHIN this particular time frame. But this is only the BEGINNING of the problems with this idea.

For example we find here in Revelation that John is foretelling FUTURE occasions in which these national apostasies or complete spiritual "killings"/"conquerings" of God's "holy ones" would occur, along with (as always) their corresponding "harvests" and "bowls" of God's anger." (Re 11:7, 11-13, 18 12:5 13:7 14:15 16:1, 14 19:17-21)

ALL these things were being PROPHESIED by the Apostle John around 96 CE. CLEARLY all these foretold events were not to be fulfilled within the next three years or so, and PARTICULARLY since we have certainly not experienced the paradise earth that is foretold in Revelation 21, or for that matter the Millennial Reign (which would obviously span more than three years) and the complete annihilation of Satan and the demons soon to follow foretold in Chapter 20.

Agape love;
Sol

AmosAu2
Posts: 440
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#20 Post by AmosAu2 » 1 year ago

Stranger wrote:
1 year ago
Amos wrote,
One of the major things that I've come to understand, is that the book of Revelation was in all pretenses fulfilled during the first century.

There is another major point to consider seriously; Revelation is written in the self same style & subject matter as many other non canonical texts of the period from circa 300 BCE to 200 AD. This was due to the Hellenization of Israel following the advent of Alexander & the subsequent break up of his kingdom following his death. The 2 kingdoms that affected Israel were, the Seleucid (king of the North) & the Ptolemies (king of the South). The influence of these 2 kingdoms substantially came to an end following the conquest of the entire area by Rome. Sadly, the Hellenization of thought, as learned by Israel continued well beyond that time. This is all historical fact.

The Hellenization brought to being the views of demonology, end times conflicts, & many other aspects of Pagan culture & worship.

This raises many serious concerns for me as to the authenticity of the book of Revelation itself. Revelation was NOT included in the Aramaic Peshita, along with 2 & 3 John, 2 Peter & Jude. When we consider ALL of these 5 books, it will be seen that they are ALL the same style of writing, commonly called Apocalyptic!
Both 1 John 1 Peter seem to carry a different message entirely to their later books, suggesting a different author to the first of the books given the title of 1 John 1 Peter. There has been much discussion about this for several centuries.
Hi Amos,

History has not been kind nor honest with us, at least not man's history or Satan's. Are you implying that we have been bamboozled with some of the Bible? I know that it can be very confusing at times, and that we have the father of the lie and his army residing amongst us, that we must stay aware of. When we question the Bible and doubt what it says, are we not conforming to the devices of the devil? With all the misinformation out there and all the lies that have been told, what is mere man's chances of knowing the truth? Satan thinks he can figure what Jehovah has already figured. He thinks he can out smart Jehovah, but try as he "may" he cant do it. He can portray a false image of himself doing it, and a lot of people don't know the difference.



Stranger, (1Cor 14:31)
Hi again Stranger,
Yes indeed, I do now believe the entire bible has been manipulated by both scribes, translators & theologists.

The scribes have been well known (within their own circles) for altering the texts of the OT. This was to add an updated view due to changing events & circumstances within the Jewish community, etc. What we don't know, until we start to investigate is that there was substantial infighting with the communities during what is called the inter-testamental period, from about 400 BCE to about 200 AD. The AD period from about 70 AD to 200 AD, saw some very substantial additions & alterations to the NT as well.

The translators have been largely but not exclusively pressured by Thoelogians to translate according to the various Theologies of whoever paid for the gtranslating to be done. The Latin Vulgate is a prime example for this. When Jerome first translated the entire bible, the Bishops demanded an immediate edit of various passages in the NT section, due to the original NOT agreeing with the doctrines of Rome. From memory, Jerome was forced to edit the translation several times, before it was acceptable to the RC Church.

We only need to look at more recent times, IE, the 18th to 20th centuries for a plethora of new translations. These ALL have their agenda....to water down the truth contained within the bible. One of the most recent being a revision of the HCSB, which I have always believed is a better modern translation. It now presents as the "Holman Standard Bible." This revision has brought it into line with the "New Age" thinking....gender equality!!! This being gender neutral. Sadly several of these newer translations use the gender issue when addressing GOD. He is no longer a, "Manly God of war" etc.

Regards, Amos.

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