Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

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Stranger
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Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#1 Post by Stranger » 3 years ago

Where would the Jw's be without Armageddon?

Bobcat
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#2 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Howdy Stranger!

So how do you view Armageddon? What's your take on it? It is found in the Bible. Although, I agree that it has been used/misused over time. And it has made money for some.

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#3 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

One of the things I wanted to comment on with regard to the WT's view of Armageddon:

The WT usually emphasizes that Armageddon is a war. To me, this is, not entirely, but somewhat misleading. Armageddon is specifically described in Revelation as a "place" or "location." (Greek topos; from which we get "topography").

On the one hand, a "war" does happen at "the place" called "Armageddon." (Rev 16:14; 19:19) And often times a battle is named after the place in which it is fought. (E.g. "Waterloo", "Normandy", "Marathon", etc. - The "war" that takes place at "Armageddon" would also qualify as a "battle" since it is described as a single engagement. But it also settles the confrontation. Thus, it is also a "war.")

On the other hand, 'the kings and their armies' are gathered to "Armageddon" during the 6th bowl. (Rev 16:12-16) Therefore, all the events that are described as happening after the pouring out of the 7th bowl (Rev 16:17-21), all these events happen at the place called "Armageddon." So, technically, it would be more accurate to say that a "war" is just one of the events that takes place at "Armageddon." The climactic event, to be sure. But not the only event.

By extension, if the idea of "Armageddon" is a gathering together against God in some way, then, "the great city" of Rev 16:19 would not logically be "Babylon the Great." If the nations 'gathered together' against Babylon, that would hardly be a gathering together against God or His interests. (Rev 17:16-17; And thus, this thread here.) Instead, the nations gather together against God's people (including nominal ones) and God uses it to both punish disobedient Christians (Rev 16:19a) and the rest of false religion (Rev 16:19c), before settling His dispute with the nations (Rev 16:20) and their rebellious populations (Rev 16:21).

That the gathering of earth's 'kings and their armies' to "Armageddon" (Rev 16:16) is seen by God as a hostile move against His interests can be seen by His next response (Rev 16:17-18), as well as the fact that it is the demons who influence the gathering (Rev 16:12-14).


Bobcat

Stranger
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#4 Post by Stranger » 3 years ago

AS most probably know Rutherford was a door to door Encyclopedia salesman before becoming a member of the Society. Then after joining the WTBTS he was the one who started publishing the rainbow series among many other books proclaiming Armageddon is just a heartbeat or two away. He at the time had what I will call a decent size army to go and peddle his publications. He took the newest religion and one of the youngest sects out of infancy with his life threatening Armageddon filled preaching work. Expansion developed rapidly. His stirring words were heard from coast to coast and beyond.

Now the message has not changed but some of the details have since his time. The sales pitch still works but in my opinion not quite as effectively. Russell had the necessary vision and business ability to lay a firm foundation during his administration to get the Armageddon war wagon rolling and Rutherford had no doubt about his own abilities to increase the size of the wagon and did so with tremendous force.

Now enters Nathan knorr with his optimistic parrot-like repeat after me program. He was successful with that program and the new recruits came pouring in, the War wagon was constantly increasing. The printing press was running 24\7 with plans for more presses in the works, these guys were laughing all the way to bank and back .

Now that they can't charge the public for their literature any more they simply charge their members for it, making publishers into distributors so to speak, very similar to how Amway dispenses it's products.

Cleverly concealed salesmanship of Armageddon that has worked very well for them.

Just to be fair their not the only ones, but have set the bar at very high levels!!

" Peace in the Valley of the Almighty"
Stranger (Jn 16:33)

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#5 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Stranger wrote,
Cleverly concealed salesmanship of Armageddon that has worked very well for them.
Just to be fair their not the only ones, but have set the bar at very high levels!!
" Peace in the Valley of the Almighty"
Stranger (Jn 16:33)
How threatening of a word is Armageddon to You, and what is the level of its importance in your life?

As much commercialism around Armageddon that we have witnessed in the last three decades alone, does it still alarm us with the force it had when we were children?
Hundreds, if not thousands of video games poisoning the youth, many adults themselves taking part. Movies and box office block busters such as "Armageddon" which took in $36,000,000 US. the first weekend it opened. So many others that keep people tuned in and forking out.

Have we been experiencing an intentional numbing of the war we have been warned about all our lives?

Bobcat wrote,
On the one hand, a "war" does happen at "the place" called "Armageddon." (Rev 16:14; 19:19) And often times a battle is named after the place in which it is fought. (E.g. "Waterloo", "Normandy", "Marathon", etc. - The "war" that takes place at "Armageddon" would also qualify as a "battle" since it is described as a single engagement. But it also settles the confrontation. Thus, it is also a "war.
On the other hand, 'the kings and their armies' are gathered to "Armageddon" during the 6th bowl. (Rev 16:12-16) Therefore, all the events that are described as happening after the pouring out of the 7th bowl (Rev 16:17-21), all these events take place at the place called "Armageddon." So, technically, it would be more accurate to say that a "war" is one of the events that takes place at "Armageddon." The climactic event, to be sure. But not the only event.
Is not Armageddon a worldwide event as well as a spiritual battle? Are we already battling spiritually? At times, it would seem so, battling the invisible forces of evil, and the visible forces seem constantly attacking. We have been outfitted with a suit of armor if we so desire to wear it, provided by "Jehovah of Armies" and reinforced by the King of Kings of all Wars and the Lord of Lords of all Wars, "Jesus Christ the Son of God"!

"Jehovah of Armies", is there a stronger force to be reckoned with? (I know not).
"Jehovah of Armies", is there any other name I would enlist myself to? (never would that happen.)

*** This thread didn't do so well the first time around, let's see if anything has changed.***



Stranger, (Ps 83:18 KJV)

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#6 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Stranger wrote,
We have been outfitted with a suit of armor if we so desire to wear it, provided by "Jehovah of Armies" and reinforced by the King of Kings of all Wars and the Lord of Lords of all Wars, "Jesus Christ the Son of God"!

(Jn 16:15) NWT!


Stranger wrote,
Where would the JW's be without Armageddon?

Answer: Paradise?


Stranger, (Jn 16:16)

AmosAu2
Posts: 440
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#7 Post by AmosAu2 » 1 year ago

Howdy Stranger,

Good topic!

What most people don't understand is that we need to have at least 2 witnesses for any topic or the like to be credible.
Armageddon is only mentioned ONCE in the entire bible; Rev. 16:16.

One of the major things that I've come to understand, is that the book of Revelation was in all pretenses fulfilled during the first century.

There is another major point to consider seriously; Revelation is written in the self same style & subject matter as many other non canonical texts of the period from circa 300 BCE to 200 AD. This was due to the Hellenization of Israel following the advent of Alexander & the subsequent break up of his kingdom following his death. The 2 kingdoms that affected Israel were, the Seleucid (king of the North) & the Ptolemies (king of the South). The influence of these 2 kingdoms substantially came to an end following the conquest of the entire area by Rome. Sadly, the Hellenization of thought, as learned by Israel continued well beyond that time. This is all historical fact.

The Hellenization brought to being the views of demonology, end times conflicts, & many other aspects of Pagan culture & worship.

This raises many serious concerns for me as to the authenticity of the book of Revelation itself. Revelation was NOT included in the Aramaic Peshita, along with 2 & 3 John, 2 Peter & Jude. When we consider ALL of these 5 books, it will be seen that they are ALL the same style of writing, commonly called Apocalyptic!
Both 1 John 1 Peter seem to carry a different message entirely to their later books, suggesting a different author to the first of the books given the title of 1 John 1 Peter. There has been much discussion about this for several centuries.

Regards, Amos.

Stranger
Posts: 1897
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#8 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Amos wrote,

What most people don't understand is that we need to have at least 2 witnesses for any topic or the like to be credible.
Armageddon is only mentioned ONCE in the entire bible; Rev. 16:16.
Hello Amos,

I didn't realize that Amos, thank you for putting that to "light". (for me at least). That's is interesting, and I'm am looking forward to what others have to say about that singular fact.

Thank you for your informed response as well, I have had a long day and will look at it again in the morning. Looks like some good stuff!


Until then,
Stranger

Marina
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#9 Post by Marina » 1 year ago

Hmm - ok I know you need to replace the name Jehovah with God or Lord in this instance - am bit busy as some of you may realise so this is just a v quick response.

(2 Peter 3:8-13) . . .However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

:flowers:
Marina

Bobcat
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Re: Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it!

#10 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

The actual word "Armageddon" only occurs this once (Rev 16:16). But the ideas encompassed in the word and in the verse and context are not new, not by any stretch.

There is a parallel between the culmination of the 6th Trumpet and the 6th Bowl (e.g. see here). The 6th Trumpet culminates with all humanity refusing to repent of their evil lifestyle. (Rev 9:20-21) The 6th Bowl culminates with "the kings of the earth and their armies" gathered together (not "gathering" - the aorist verb indicates that they do complete their gathering) to "Armageddon" or the Mountain of Megiddo. Together, the 6th Trumpet and Bowl pictures humanity and its rulers in their ultimate refusal of the good news: They refuse, en-masse, to accept it and they move into a threatening position against it. Compare Rev 16:12-14 which shows that it is the demons who are influencing the 'gathering together.' That would imply that their effort is intended against the interests of God. Rev 16:16 describes the point at which they are successful gathering their forces together. It helps to show that "Armageddon" is a "place" that signifies a unified threat against the interests of God. Both the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Bowl describe God's reaction to this development.

One can also take the location as having a historically strategic significance. Megiddo was the location of some decisive battles (E.g. Saul, Josiah). The "place" also overlooked a strategic trade and travel route.

The idea that Jehovah would gather all the nations against His people for a final confrontation occurs a number of times in the OT Scriptures: For example, Ezek 38:1-9; Zech 14:1-2.

On this post the chart also shows a similar positioning in the chain of events between the 1st century events and the chain of events in Rev 16:16-21. Rev 16:16 parallels Mt 24:15 in both chain of events. Mt 24:15 is the sign that indicates the great tribulation of the 1st century was to begin. The action in Rev 16:16 results in the pouring out of the 7th bowl, including God's statement in Rev 16:17, and the ensuing "great earthquake".

So the point I am attempting to make is that "Armageddon" and its context does have its rightful place within the whole body of Scripture.

It is true that many have misapplied the word Armageddon and/or made money off of it. But writing off Revelation (and/or Armageddon) would be, IMO, like throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.


Bobcat

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