Chiasmus of Revelation

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Get out of her
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#21 Post by Get out of her » 3 years ago

Hello Bobcat and everyone:

Just wanted to thank you for your hard work on this. For some reason I had overlooked this thread until just now and I personally think you have stumbled upon something significant here which I for one had not yet noticed. Actually my friend Michael Ben Zehabe would normally have been one to have caught on to something like this long before I would have, and I don't even recall him spotting this particular anomaly in Revelation. Of course he was always focused much more on the Old Testament in view of his expertise with ancient Bible Hebrew. My hat is off to you on this discovery of yours.

Actually one of the reasons I have no doubt you are onto something here is because of several things quite similar to this chiasmus phenomenon found in the scriptures that Mike had taught me (or at least tried to) over the years. You may find it interesting to know that a more intimate understanding of ancient Mishnaic Hebrew would actually give one a tremendous advantage in spotting things like this in the scriptures. In turn the more you begin to recognize such things in holy text the more you begin to appreciate that the Bible is not a product of the human mind.

There is actually a "seal" of Jehovah that is like a personal signature on EVERYTHING ultimately that issues from him INCLUDING his "exhortations" or writings/messages/words to mankind. The more deeply you delve into such things the more you begin to recognize that Jehovah is in fact actually signing his personal name to it in a way that unmistakably identifies him as the originator or source. (Job 33:16)

Michael had actually gone down the proverbial rabbit hole in this area with the Hebrew writings to the point where he was stumbling upon anomalies like this which while he could recognize them as being related to more simple phenomenons such as the "atbash" or chiasmus ones, they increasingly began to prove well beyond his ability to actually comprehend. You are soon left with the feeling that these types of things continue on indefinitely in the scriptures to a level well beyond the reach of even the most gifted humans. (Is 55:9)

Dajo1 states:
This is really intriguing. Amos sent me an article on "7" in the scriptures some time ago.
I can't help thinking about "get out of her" - Sol. Is this what Sol has been trying so hard to explain.
Is this what Sol can "see"?

AmosAU replies:

Hi David,

Perhaps you're right about Sol's postings. Perhaps this is what he can see. I'd like to get his thoughts on this.
Unfortunately jo-el is correct on this. I cannot take any credit here on this one with regard to recognizing the chiastic anomaly here in Revelation. A phenomenon somewhat similar to the chiasmus one however did occur to me at some point in connection with Revelation about three years ago. When I suddenly felt like I basically understood all of the key deeper meanings of this book immediately after a rather significant degree of prayer and meditation on it, it occurred to me that what is referred to by the Hebrew scholars as the "atbash" anomaly was definitely at play here. What is an atbash? (Honestly not sure I am even spelling it correctly)

This term is with reference not simply to a cycle such as a week, but more particularly to the way in which a cycle always ends in the exact opposite way it begins. We might think of this as much perhaps like the way that a planting is immediately followed by a harvest, or (in this particular scriptural/spiritual context at least) a death is followed by a rebirth. (Baptism) (1 Cor 15:35-38) (2 Ki 5:14) (1 Sa 2:5)

I personally feel that this "atbash" understanding in turn contributed to my grasping or subsequently factoring in the way in which while the "seven times" prophecy ultimately was officially recognized as having begun with the spiritual adultery of the JUDEAN kingdom (as opposed to the ten tribe Samaritan apostasy which had already occurred earlier), it would In turn be officially recognized as having ENDED with this same Judean entity once again committing this same spiritual harlotry. This would be despite the fact that mankind would now have to wait for its Samaritan counterpart to play catch- up (in effect) before they would experience the blessings of the installment of the millennial kingdom which the Judean or heavenly "camp" of Jehovah's "woman" would already now be enjoying. (Re 11:15-17 12:12) (Ca 6:13)

In other words; While the ten-tribe "camp" of the nation was actually the FIRST to experience the going into of the proverbial Babylonian captivity that appears to have been foretold to continue for the next 2,520 years, this "seven times" phenomenon would in some sense actually end in the opposite way it began. The Samaritan entity would now be the LAST to fall into this same spiritual adultery, which is exactly why I at times refer to Zechariah 11 and accounts such as where Jesus speaks of "last being first and first being last" in connection with the "re-creation." (Mt 19:28)

Despite the fact that in the case of ancient fleshly Israel it was actually the Samaritan or "flock" facet of Jehovah's nation that led the way in forming adulterous political alliances with foreign nations, Zechariah 11 is speaking about a time frame in which this same "flock" entity would not be held accountable for the spiritual adultery of its shepherding class. (Zec 11:4, 5, 7) Since it never unfolded in this manner with the ancient fleshly nation, it seems clear to me that it is actually the subsequent SPIRITUAL nation of Israel that is being referred to here in prophecy at the very end of this "seven times" period.

This catch-up aspect in fact or the way in which this would all play out in reverse order at the end of the "seven times" period is actually what I believe is being referred to in accounts such as Matthew 10:23. In other words even though the Millennial reign would have actually already begun with the heavenly or Judean "camp" of the Shulammite at the end of this 2,520 year time span, we could still expect to witness one final "circuit of the cities" or spiritual death and subsequent "harvest" or resurrection (rebirth) of the SAMARITAN "camp" of the "woman" before experiencing the blessings of this Millennial Reign here on the earth.

Agape love;

Sol

Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#22 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Thanks for your comments Sol. Curiously, the structure I arrived at had its beginnings in a hunch (regarding Rev chapter 12).

At any rate, any observations you have about it are more than welcome. It is still an object for contemplation for me. (And an evidence of a Divine hand behind the book of Revelation.


Bobcat

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Get out of her
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#23 Post by Get out of her » 3 years ago

http://discussthetruth.com/download/file.php?id=176







Thank you Apollos for posting this little chiasmus insert which I greatly appreciated as well. I was not at all familiar with it and I just wanted to highlight one or two of the rather interesting things I personally recognize this little abbreviated chiasmus overview as bringing out.

Everyone likely realizes at this point that one of the things I continue to stress is not simply that there is "two camps" of the Shulammite or both a heavenly and earthly aspect of Jehovah's "woman" or nation, but that one of the ways this was symbolically prefigured throughout the scriptures was with the division made between the Judean and Samaritan kingdoms of ancient fleshly Israel. This same division was often represented as simply a division between "Judah and Ephraim" and apparently one of the reasons was the fact that the capitol of the ten-tribe kingdom sat squarely in the tribal allotment assigned to Ephraim. (Ez 37:10) (Zec 9:13) Moreover at least the majority if not all of the kings that reigned in Samaria were in fact Ephraimites.

Anyway this chiasmus overview chart of Revelation that Apollos was kind enough to produce has revealed yet another way in which Jehovah has highlighted these same two aspects of his "woman." Perhaps more importantly however is the way in which it appears to emphasize the importance of our grasping the way that this division of the "two camps" should affect our understanding of Revelation. You see I believe we would all be quite remiss to overlook what I personally recognize as likely the most important reason that the tribe of Ephraim was often used to represent the entire Samaritan kingdom. What is this?

This appears to become apparent when we more closely examine the symbolic significance that was assigned to the tribe of Ephraim primarily in the account of Genesis 48:19. You see in stark contrast with his Judean counterpart which ultimately was identified with scriptural terms such as the "little flock" whom the father has "approved of giving the kingdom," Ephraim is associated with terms such as "a multitude of nations." (Lu 12:32) Particularly in the book of Revelation it seems, this same term "multitude of nations" or is of course also identified with terms such as a "GREAT CROWD which no man was able to number out of ALL NATIONS tribes, peoples and tongues." (Re 7:9)

I am suggesting that perhaps particularly when we are considering scriptures in Revelation, every time we encounter words or phrases such as "all the nations" or "the nations/tribes of the earth," that we begin recognizing this simply as referencing the earthly "camp" of the "Shulammite" or even the way such terms should be directing our focus on the FLOCK aspect of Jehovah's people as opposed to the shepherding one. (Zec 11:3-5)

You see if we were to begin reading the book of Revelation with these things in mind, I will propose that this alone would quickly have a dramatic impact on the way we understand this book. I dare say we would begin to associate a foretold spiritual overthrow or "conquering" of an entity identified with terms such as "my TWO witnesses" with an apostasy of exactly what was already represented previously with the TWO tribe shepherding facet of Jehovah's people and by extension what seems to be represented as becoming part of the "TWO horned wild beast" of Revelation upon experiencing this spiritual defeat by the dragon and wild beast. (Re 11:3, 7)

In turn when we read about things like the success of satan in getting "all the nations of the earth" to "worship the wild beast and its image," we might then make a critical connection to the way in which a "TEN horned" entity is now subsequently represented as a part of satan's system of things. It might seem as if perhaps what was represented symbolically with the "TEN tribe" kingdom of Israel or earthly "camp" of his "woman" is now officially recognized by Jehovah as having experienced the very same spiritual defeat of its Judean counterpart. (Re 13:7, 8, 14, 15 17:3)

Since the scriptures clearly indicate that it is specifically spiritual adultery or particularly the forming of political alliances with satan's political system that would now break the marital covenant between Jehovah and his "woman," I would in turn suggest that this is exactly the reason that BOTH "camps" of the "Shulammite" are now being represented symbolically as not only atop these wild beasts," but also as part of a "great harlot." (Zec 11:10) (Ez 23)

Just as we now observe in the 17th chapter of Revelation, now that the final foretold seventh apostasy or "circuit of the cities" is complete, we in turn are now presented with a symbolic depiction of the final seventh outright destruction of this "three part great city." (Mt 10:23) (Re 16:19 17:16, 18) However I wanted to take this opportunity to point out yet another thing that this chiasmus chart highlights which nobody ever seems to notice from my observation.

Once again with this concept of "two camps" of Jehovah's "woman" or nation in mind and the way in which this chiasmus chart highlights this aspect, please take a closer look at how the 144.000 of Revelation chapter 7 is depicted in an earthly context, while the 144,000 of chapter 14 is presented in a heavenly one.

I had actually made this observation several years ago and had begun pointing out that it should begin to account for things such as the fact that in the time of ancient King David and Solomon (accounts which I personally recognize as prophetic dramas designed to focus our attention on the general time period of the foretold Millennial Reign), the appointed kingly officials of these rulers actually totaled up to comprise the number 288,000 as opposed to 144,000 interestingly enough. (1 Chr 27)

This is not to say that I recognize these numbers to be understood as literal, in fact I strongly suspect that particularly since both these numbers are based on the number twelve, they should be recognized as primarily being used to represent both the earthly as well as the heavenly "camps" of Israel or the "Shulammite." (Ca 6:13)

Agape love;

Sol

Get out of her
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#24 Post by Get out of her » 3 years ago

AmosAU states:
Thanks for your further comments particularly with regard to the views of Sol.

I had forgotten that he was trying to prove some theory with regard to the repetition of sevens with regard to Israel. Sol may have a point, but I dropped out of his postings when I realized that he substituted the $WB&TS for Israel. That is a definite no, no in my books. The $WB&TS have NEVER EVER been in any position to replace Israel.

Any & ALL prophecies OR promises for Israel are just that, for Israel, & they CANNOT be stolen by OR transferred to any other people, nation or religious organisation.
Hello Amos;

I am sure that at least most of us here on this website are well aware of your view that natural/fleshly Jews still exist and remain in line for some sort of privileged position amidst the future full manifestation of the Millennial Reign. Moreover I have great respect for the notion of someone being willing to continually promote a concept which they know would very much tend to be generally resisted amongst the group of people they are presenting it to, perhaps even recognized as absurd.

I often do exactly this very thing and by extension it should be clear that I'm not here to try and win any popularity contests. If or when I do this it is simply when I recognize certain scriptural teachings as not only being completely overlooked by my fellow brothers and sisters, but also rather critical for us to understand in a context in which I am certain Jehovah's spirit anointed slaves are once again shortly to receive actual appointments to restored theocratic shepherding authority and power. (Mt 3:3)

I hope you can forgive me however for pointing out that the difference I see between the way that you and I do this is would be perfectly illustrated with the statements you just made here in this case. I don’t begrudge anyone's right to maintain any view they wish. However I will insist their opinions do not give them license to misrepresent the views of others that might not agree with their own, and particularly when they do so while continuing to fail in producing any serious scriptural support for their own opposing argument.

I have called upon you before to produce at least a somewhat respectable level of scriptural support for your view on this topic along with a sound line of reasoning, and up until this very moment I have only witnessed you approaching this subject in manners quite similar to what you have done also on this occasion.

Even if you were to fail in your attempt to accept my challenge here, I could at least have respect for your view as well as your approach to substantiating it. Taking cheap shots at differing viewpoints and the people who present them is certainly no way to gain anyone's respect. While it pains me to point this out, I cannot help but be reminded of the way campaigning politicians most often lower themselves to simply attacking their opponents or competitors instead of focusing on their proposals for actually making positive and effective changes in things.

For one thing if it were true that I recognize the WTBTS as being Israel, I can assure you that I would remain an active member of the JW organization. One of the things I have been attempting to point out for some time now is that for anyone to recognize God's people as an actual NATION (which is of course the primary concept that is promoted by the use of the name Israel in this case), is to in turn recognize any alleged legal or legitimate theocratic shepherding AUTHORITY of such an entity.

I can absolutely assure you that if I was currently recognizing any such legal authority amongst the JW organization, I would most certainly not be doing things like pointing out that I see them as the latest or final manifestation of the foretold "false prophet" or third "part" of the "three part great city" which I in turn understand as yet another way of saying Babylon the Great or even the "antichrist."

Quite to the contrary, the scriptures make it quite clear that it is this very act of making themselves a third part of this "three part" entity that Jehovah's nation LOSES this theocratic authority and by extension CEASES to be a nation. By doing so they would now have broken the very covenant that established them as a nation to begin with.

To refer to the JW organization as Israel would be very much like referring to corporate America as the United States of America when they long ago have already tossed aside their Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you live in the "U.S.A." I can absolutely assure you that you stopped answering to the American government long ago assuming you have ever even dealt with them at all. If anything you have long been dealing with the U.N.

The moment God's true people recognize this loss of theocratic legal authority is in turn the very moment they must now "flee" from what has now replaced the "constant feature;" namely the "disgusting thing that causes desolation." (Da 11:31) (Mt 24:15, 16) The name antichrist in fact literally means-replacement or substitute Christ.

What I HAVE been long endeavoring to say in connection with the more modern day manifestation of SPIRITUAL Israel is once again basically the following:

In view of what I am finding in the prophecies of Revelation in particular that appear to deal specifically with our more modern time frame, while bearing in mind that God's spiritual nation was always identified as one that would internationally be preaching the "good news of God's kingdom" while bearing God's name and remaining politically neutral, I see absolutely no alternative but to recognize that for a period of time at least, the JW organization WAS the final manifestation of exactly what was represented not by ancient Judea, but rather the ten tribe Samaritan portion of Jehovah's nation.

In fact when we examine the admittedly alarming track record of this particular religious organization, I think we could all agree that it seems to correlate PERFECTLY with the appalling historical account of the entire time period in which the ancient Samaritan kingdom was separated from its Judean shepherding counterpart.

Nevertheless this ten tribe northern kingdom retained their status as God's nation and continued to receive his protection until their apostate behavior finally devolved to the point where they formed an adulterous political alliance with the Assyrian Empire. Just as occurred I believe in the case of the JW organization around 1991, they now CEASED being a nation AT ALL, let alone one that could bear the name Israel.

Just as has already been demonstrated on all prior occasions that this level of apostasy has been committed by Jehovah's people, I will insist that they are now once again for the final foretold time facing the same outright destruction that ALWAYS accompanies the "harvests" of the "firstfruits" of God's nation, or what is also identified/equated with a "conclusion of a system of things." (2 Th 2:1-3) (1 Cor 15:23) (Mt 13:39)

The main difference on this final occasion is that the world power that will be replacing the one that had the audacity to crawl into bed with Jehovah's "woman" is going to strictly consist of the long awaited "kingdom of the heavens." It will arrive in a scope of power unlike anything ever witnessed on this earth. This will eventually prove to be something beyond even that of the flood of Noah's day.

Agape love;

Sol

Dajo1
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#25 Post by Dajo1 » 2 years ago

Evening Bobcat
These chiastic structures are fascinating! Not only is the Bible itself forming the pattern but as you have shown, Revelation is a study chiastically itself.
That bit about the temple not being opened until the last or 7th trumpet was blown... tied in with Judgement and the warning.
The message from JW is said to change to a harder hail kind, but I wonder what scripture it will be based on?
The one that comes to mind is the one where Jesus read from th scroll of Isaiah 61. However her rolled it up after reading about “the year of goodwill”. He did not read the part about “proclaiming the day of vengeance, did he.
Just a couple off thoughts anyway.

AmosAu2
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#26 Post by AmosAu2 » 2 years ago

Hi David,

The reason why Yeshua did not finish the passage from Isaiah, is that it was not the time for it to be proclaimed. The later portion of the verses were for a time well into the future. Timing is everything.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#27 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Dajo1,

Here is a chiasm within the chiasm of Revelation. I suspect I'm just starting to scratch the surface on this.

There is a surprise chiasm to the follow on to this post. I just haven't got around to finishing the post yet.

Very much related to that thread is the fact that the tower of Babel incident is written in Genesis in a chiastic structure (e.g. here and here). I hold that to be the beginning of the Gentile times referred to in Luke 24:21 (the end or 'fulfillment' occurring at Rev 11:15).


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#28 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

For referential purposes, I am linking to a chiasm of Heb 12:1-3 here.

Eventually I am going to start of separate thread for chiasmus in the whole Bible. (Done)


Bobcat

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Kosonen
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#29 Post by Kosonen » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
3 years ago


Rev 13:3-10 then goes on to describe one of the heads that has a death stroke and that causes serious problems for the Christian readers of Revelation. The death stroke that gets healed and the subsequent worshiping of the beast lead me to believe that it is talking about the fourth beast of Daniel 7, Rome. The death stroke that it recovers from being the Roman Civil War of 68-69 AD. (For which see this post and the links found there.) Historically, emperor worship became a staple of the Roman empire after the Roman civil war which became a notable threat for Christians of that time and for many decades after.
Many believe the prophecy in Revelation has a dual fulfillment or only a later fulfilment. I think it could have a dual fulfilment. I am though nor 100% sure about a first century fulfillment. But there are some striking similarities. Like this explanation of Bobcat. And what is very interesting is the current political situation in USA. There are people like Alex Jones, Mike Adams and others who warn of a civil war coming to America. Especially if the Democrats lose the Midterm elections.
And if this will be the second fulfilment of the death-stroke, then the worship of the beast and its image will follow and the compulsion to take the mark of the beast.
We are literaly living in very interesting times.

Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#30 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

We are literally living in very interesting times.
That we are definitely agreed on, Kosonen.

Incidentally, the parallel in Revelation to the Roman Civil War of 68-69 CE would be Rev 16:19b, ". . . and the cities of the nations fell." Mt 24:29 is largely a quote or allusion of Isa 13:10 which describes gentile political upheaval prior to the fall of Babylon. Matthew 24 does not describe the destruction of Babylon the Great. But Rev 16:19 places it right after the 'falling of the cities of the nations.' See this post for some brief mention of that. You might also want to look at my posts on this thread for some additional on this.


As always, happy researching.
Bobcat

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