Chiasmus of Revelation

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Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#41 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

On this post (a few posts up), in the the last paragraph I said:
With all that in mind, it is interesting that the 'fallen state of Babylon the Great' is described right after the announcement of the on-going world-wide declaration of the good news. Compare that with this post. And see also this post where I assert a link between the fall of Babylon the Great in Rev 18:2 and Isaiah chapter 2. The fall of Babylon the Great would also represent one of the early victories of the crowned rider of Rev 6:2 (assuming this is Jesus). (See this post and the links at the bottom of the post which show a chiastic structure within the Trumpets passage itself - a chiasm within a chiasm!)
In connection with this idea, see Constable's Notes on Isa 44 (here), and especially starting at Isa 44:28 and forward where there is some discussion of Cyrus and his God ordained role in conquering Babylon and opening up the opportunity for the Jews to go home and restore the worship of Yahweh in the land of Israel.

The commentary then goes on to show some similarities between this passage about Cyrus and Isa 49:1-53:12 about Yahweh's "servant."

It opens up/builds upon the idea that Cyrus typified the work of Jesus after his coronation. That he would overthrow Babylon the Great and open up the way for people of the nations to become "my (God's/Christ's) people." (Isa 2:2-3; Rev 18:2-4) Thus providing the connection between Rev 14:6-7 and Rev 14:8. (In this scenario, Babylon the Great would be representative of pagan religion. I also hold to the idea that this is what Mt 24:31 is alluding to.)


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Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#42 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Here are some of the correspondences in Isaiah between Cyrus (Isa 44:24—48:22) and "The Servant" (Isa 49:1—53:12), as listed in Constable's Notes, showing that Cyrus' role can rightly be seen to have its parallel in Jesus. An thus, the fall of ancient Babylon to Cyrus can be seen to have a parallel in Babylon the Great's fall to the enthroned Jesus. (Keeping in mind that the 'fall' of both Babylons [the nation and BtG] is not the same as their later demise or destruction.):
Parallels between Isa 44:24—48:22 and Isa 49:1—53:12.[469] These sections provide the solutions to Israel’s double need: national bondage (cf. Isa 42:18—43:21) and spiritual sinfulness (cf. Isa 43:22—44:22).
The work of Cyrus (Isa 44:24—48:22)
The work of the Servant (Isa 49:1—53:12)
• The task stated and the agent named (Isa 44:24-28)
• The task stated and the agent named (Isa 49:1-6)

• The task confirmed: to Israel and the world (Isa 45:1-7)
• The task confirmed: to Israel and the world (Isa 49:7-12)

• The response: prayer (Isa 45:8)
• The response: praise (Isa 49:13)

• Israel’s disquiet (Isa 45:9-25)
• Israel’s despondency (Isa 49:14—50:11)

• The Lord’s purpose affirmed (Isa 45:9-13)
• The Lord’s love affirmed (Isa 49:14-16)

• Israel and Gentiles (Isa 45:14-22)
• Israel and Gentiles (Isa 49:17-26)

• Those who find righteousness and strength in the supreme Lord and those who oppose him (Isa 45:23-25)
• The Servant, the exemplar of those who find strength and vindication in the almighty Lord (Isa 50:1-11)

• The Lord’s care for Israel - from the beginning through to the coming salvation (Isa 46:1-13)
• The Lord’s care for Israel - from the beginning through to the coming salvation (Isa 51:1-16)

• Babylon: from the throne to the dust (Isa 47:1-15)
• Zion: from the dust to the throne (Isa 51:17—52:12)

• Redemption from Babylon (Isa 48:1-22)
• Redemption from sin (Isa 52:13—53:12)
Note, I had to format it a little different from the way Constable's Notes had it.

For some discussion on the parallel to Cyrus and the fall of Babylon with Jesus and the fall of Babylon the Great, see this post.


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Stranger
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#43 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Hi Bobcat,

In your opinion does any of what you just posted have anything to do with Nahum chapter 3? Or is that something else altogether?


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Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#44 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Stranger,

It has been a while since I gave Nahum a close look. It is a polemic against Nineveh and Assyria that focuses on Jehovah's intention to end tyranny. And there are many similarities with the judgment against Babylon (and Babylon the Great).

But, IMO, the book of Nahum, beyond its immediate subject (Nineveh/Assyria), focuses on something greater than Babylon the Great. Something bigger that Babylon the Great is only a part of.

Since this is a thread featuring Chiasmus, this page, and especially in the sub-title, "Literary Context," has a good bit about the make up and literary style of the book of Nahum. Like the write-up says, "It can be said with good reason, then, that Nahum was the poet laureate among the Minor Prophets."

Here has an example of chiastic structure in Nahum.

The only possible quote of Nahum in the NT is Rom 10:15. (Nah 1:15; Which might, alternatively, be an allusion or quotation to Isa 52:7.) So if Revelation 14:8 & Rev 17-18 were intended to hint at Nahum, the text of Revelation does not give any clear verbal ties to it.


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Stranger
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#45 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Bobcat,

Most impressive! Thank you for your rapid response. In Nah 3:4, it sounds almost verbatim to how John describes the Great Whore in Revelation.

"Nahum the Elkoshite", that's basically all we know about this man that YHWH used to jot down His Words. Very interesting.




I'm interested in hearing more about what you think the "bigger picture" is, that would be enthralling.

Thanks again,

Stranger (Rev 14:3)

AmosAu2
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#46 Post by AmosAu2 » 2 years ago

Hi Stranger,

Your thought on Nahum 3:4 re Revelation's great whore. Do you think this could be Jerusalem & perhaps not Rome? Could we have been wrong ever since the Reformation?

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#47 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi Stranger,
In Nah 3:4, it sounds almost verbatim to how John describes the Great Whore in Revelation.
As I said in my first reply, there are similarities between the description of BtG and Nahum. Constable's Notes comments on Nah 3:4:
This devastation was coming on Nineveh because of her wickedness. She had played the harlot often by luring unsuspecting nations and then harming them. For example, King Ahaz had been attracted to Assyria and had appealed for her to come help Judah (2 Kings 16:7-18), but when she did, years later, she came to destroy rather than assist (cf. Isa. 36:16-17). The Ninevites were also practitioners of sorcery; they appealed to the spirit world for power to determine and control their destiny and that of their victims. The pagan worship of the Assyrians involved occultism, sexual perversion, and human degradation. Assyria had lured other nations, then, with immoral attractions and magical arts. These practices resulted in the enslavement of many nations and people groups; Nineveh sold them into slavery.
Much of that could also be derived from the description of BtG in Revelation 18. Yet, as I pointed out, there are no clear quotes or allusions to Nahum in Revelation 18. There are similar ideas. But nothing specific that would make one think that the angel who gave the description in Rev 18 wanted John (or the reader of Revelation) to go to a specific passage in Nahum to draw more understanding of what he was talking about or referring to.

I'm interested in hearing more about what you think the "bigger picture" is, that would be enthralling.
To me, chapter one of Nahum, although directed specifically against Nineveh, could also be understood to show Jehovah's determination to rid earth of everything that causes oppression and holds his people captive. And to rid it for good. (Nah 1:15) This would include BtG. And God & Christ have already made a way of escape from her (as discussed here). And He has shown His determination to do away with her. (Rev 16:19c; 18:8, 21)

But, IMO, that opening description of God in Nahum chapter one sets the tone for Jehovah's actions against Nineveh, and thus, also shows God's intention to rid the earth of everything that "dominates man to his injury." (Eccl 8:9) This would eventually include everything that could cause death. (1Co 15:24-25; Isa 25:6-8) And even after that, anyone who would reconsider a harmful course. (Rev 20:7-10)

So, in that sense, BtG would be included. But it is only part of something bigger. And when BtG is done away with, there is still more to be done from God's standpoint.


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Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#48 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

I made an (another) amendment to the (already) amended chiasm. This amendment is in connection with the Introduction (or Prologue) and the Conclusion (or Epilogue). It is more fine tuning as input from others and research is gathered.

Original . . Rev 1:1-8 (See here)
Amended . Rev 1:1-20 (See here)

The reason(s) for the fine tuning were based on conversation with poster Vox Ratio (for which see here and here) and some comparisons of the Introduction and Conclusion found here, which I will try to reproduce below.

In the Constable's Notes section at Lumina, in the commentary on the Conclusion of Revelation, it shows numerous correspondences between the Introduction and Conclusion. It is difficult to reproduce the exact way they are displayed there. So, I will use a little different format here:
The whole epilogue is very similar to the first chapter in many ways.
Description . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Prologue . . . . . . Epilogue

Origin of the prophecy: God and Jesus . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:1 . . . . . . . .Rev 22:6

Subject of the prophecy: coming events . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:1 . . . . . . . .Rev 22:6

Mediator of the prophecy: an angel . . . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:1 . . . . . . . .Rev 22:6, 8, 16

Writer of the prophecy: John . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Rev 1:1, 4, 9 . . . . Rev 22:8

Genuineness of the prophecy: true prophecy . . . . . . .Rev 1:3 . . . . . . . .Rev 22:6, 7, 9, 10, 18-19

Vehicle of the prophecy: a prophet . . . . . . . . . . . . . Rev 1:1, 9-11 . . . .Rev 22:8, 9, 10

Addressees of the prophecy: bond-servants . . . . . . . . Rev 1:1 . . . . . . . .Rev 22:6

Destination of the prophecy: churches . . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:3, 11 . . . . .Rev 22:16, 18

Blessing of the prophecy: for obedience . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:3 . . . . . . . Rev 22:7, 12, 14

Warning of the prophecy: for unfaithfulness . . . . . . . . Rev 1:7 . . . . . . . Rev 22:11, 12, 18-19

Center of the prophecy: Christ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Rev 1:2, 5, 9 . . . .Rev 22:16, 18, 20

God of the prophecy: Alpha and Omega . . . . . . . . . . . Rev 1:17 . . . . . . .Rev 22:13

Chief character of the prophecy: God . . . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:5, 7 . . . . . .Rev 22:12, 13, 16

Hope of the prophecy: soon return . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Rev 1:3, 7 . . . . . .Rev 22:7, 10, 12, 20
There is also an interesting correspondence in the description of Jesus in Rev 1:12-16, and how Jesus used that description when addressing the 7 congregations. That (and the lack of "most truly . . ." language) was discussed in this post (a little ways down in the post).

It was these points that caused me to extend what I saw as the introduction from Rev 1:8 to Rev 1:20.


I found an interesting comment on a blog (here) that highlighted a feature about the introduction that ties it in to the conclusion:
The most obvious of these [links and connections] occur in the messages to the seven assemblies in chapters 2 and 3, in each of which the opening greeting links back to the first vision of the exalted Jesus (Rev 1:9-18), and the closing comments include an anticipation of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21.
Some think Revelation is the product of a writer (John) under the influence of wine or drugs. The more I study Revelation, it appears to be the product of a vast intelligence. (Rev 1:1)


Bobcat

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Stranger
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#49 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Amos wrote,
Your thought on Nahum 3:4 re Revelation's great whore. Do you think this could be Jerusalem & perhaps not Rome? Could we have been wrong ever since the Reformation?
Although Nineveh was/is a real place, "Nineveh is a metaphor for the ambiguity of all cities." A city is not distinguished by size alone, but also the role it plays within a larger political context. Nineveh is a screen onto which readers project their own values in order to reaffirm them.

We could always be wrong about what we know, but in this case I don't think we are. Nineveh is a mirror that reflects back readers faults and offers them a moral lesson.


Stranger, (Ps 49:11)

Bobcat
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Re: Chiasmus of Revelation

#50 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Just trying to expand a little further in my examination of the chiastic structure of Revelation. I want to expand out to include "E" and "E^". I am hoping to see how "E" and "E^" relate to each other and also with "F", "G" and "F^" as well as with each one's "explanatory aside."


Chiasm of Revelation . . . . . . Explanatory Asides

............E Rev 6:1-8:1. . . . . Rev 7:1-8 & Rev 17:9-17

...............F Rev 8:2-11:19. . Rev 10:1-11 & Rev 11:1-13

..................G Rev 12:1-17

...............F^ Rev 13:1-14:5 . Rev 14:6-13 & Rev 14:14-20

............E^ Rev 15:1-16:21. . Rev 17:1-18 & Rev 18:1-19:5


Moving out from the center section, the next matching pair is "E" and "E^":
E Rev 6:1-8:1 The Seven Seals
E^ Rev 15:1-16:21 The Seven Bowls
Explanatory Asides:
Rev 7:1-8 & Rev 17:9-17 Answer to questions raised: Rev 6:9-11 = Rev 7:1-8; Rev 6:17 = Rev 7:9-17
Rev 17:1-18 & Rev 18:1-19:5 Babylon's end & description of her; Compare Rev 16:19c; 17:1
On Babylon's judgment see this post and included links.
Some comparative notes between the Trumpets & Bowls here.
The "E" and "E^" sections retain a sort of 'before and after' or 'start and finish' type relationship. (Compare this post.) Opening the seals represents the beginning of revealing the contents of the scroll. The bowls, on the other hand, represent the completion of the anger of God. (Rev 15:1)

(I'll come back to this.)


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