There Will Be Great Earthquakes

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the good egg
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#51 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Jerome.
Thanks.

Please brother, don't go back to dissecting the word "generation".
When Jesus gave the discourse, I don't think He intended for the disciples to take a ship toe the Library of Alexandria to study what "generation" means.
Dissecting this word is for the governing ones of watchtower.
Jesus was talking to men of whom it was said "they did not attend our schools", just fisherman.

Jesus meant "our generation" {His (own) and theirs} And so it came to pass.

I know this leaves it confusing for you. But I promise, it will be cleared up.

the good egg
Posts: 117
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#52 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

The "generation" and the breakdown.

I’ve mentioned several times that “the Generation” was Jesus’ own, He and his disciples'. And that there is no other “generation”.

I do understand person’s objections to this. But there is a simple solution. I explain.

First, I want to address why so many persons, even in light of the evidence, continue to grope for yet another “generation”, and why, when their calculations and word studies fail, they start again.

It’s the same reason that the guy in my mirror used to do it. It’s a selfish longing to figure out the timing and somehow make it happen in one’s own lifetime, by hook or by crook. A desperate need for there to be an identifiable timeline, one that includes oneself. A rejection of Jesus words "no man knows, not even I but the Father"

How many of you, before embarking on today’s scriptural meditation prayed? Do I seem mad to you, to say pray? If you have got to the point where somebody writing for your reading, tells you to pray and something inside you finds reason to object, you have a problem.

If what I am about to type out is the truth, then I didn’t come by it through my own specialness. If it is indeed the truth, then it is what you were seeking, is it not? And if that be true, then praise goes to God.

You don’t know me. I ask nothing from you. Ours is but to love one another.

Why is there no 'other' generation... Because, there’s only ONE.

Speaking about the tribulation that “the generation” would face, Jesus said at Matthew 24:21 ISV “21 because at that time there will be great suffering,[h] the kind that hasn’t happened from the beginning of the world until now and certainly won’t ever happen again."

How many ways can you say ONE TIME EVENT…? And if the reader cannot accept Jesus’ plain speaking, then Christianity is not for you.

Now I will address the problem people have, why even though Jesus words are clear “won’t ever happen again”, they still cling. They say… ‘but the generation words Jesus spoke are way down the page in the midst of His words that obviously relate to the second coming....

Jesus answered the first question, “when will these things happen”, from Matthew 24:4 to 22, Mark 13:5 to 20, Luke 21:8 to 24, speaking TO his disciples then, finishing when he made every point necessary.

1) Warned about false prophets/Christs and their message.
2) Prepared them to face suffering necessary for salvation
3) Encouraged them that the Kingdom would be thoroughly preached.
4) Gave them the sign for them to take flight.
5) Encouraged them to pray.
6) Gave them a guarantee.

Jesus answered the second question “and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” from Matthew 24:23 to 31, Mark 13:21 to 23, resumes 33 to 37, Luke 21:25 to 28 resumes 34 to 36

In the answer to the second question, Jesus again makes every point necessary, including warning US about false teachers in the same way he warned them back there.
He did so while speaking, no longer TO but THROUGH the disciples to those who would find themselves at the end of the age.

From what I have written here, you will notice that I have skipped the parable of the fig tree.

Up the board, I mentioned that post WW2 Germany was divided in half. But Berlin, existing within East Germany was also divided in half. I said this for a reason.

Jesus took the opportunity to juxtapose, in a summary, and contrast the end of Jerusalem with the end of the age.

The Lesson of the Fig Tree

32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when YOU see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates [of Jerusalem].

Jesus gave a timeline to first century Christians. They would know when Rome, Caesar, Titus etc was “near at the gates” of Jerusalem. Jesus was NOT speaking of himself int he third person. Jesus did NOT come to Jerusalem to destroy it.
And never did Jesus preach 'the kingdom of God is like a bloodthirsty army of butchers'. That is what ROME was.

And so their time to take flight was close. It was THAT generation that did not pass away.

And in stark contrast, "the end of the age" ..."that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

How could Jesus be talking about a generation that would not pass away if even HE didn’t know the day, only the Father? Obviously, it’s a juxtaposition, Jerusalem’s end THEY knew, but the Lord’s day WE DO NOT.

Any good orator, and Jesus was the best, can give a sermon where comparisons and reviews take place in the context.

apollos0fAlexandria
Posts: 3384
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#53 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 3 years ago

the good egg wrote:
3 years ago
How could Jesus be talking about a generation that would not pass away if even HE didn’t know the day, only the Father? Obviously, it’s a juxtaposition, Jerusalem’s end THEY knew, but the Lord’s day WE DO NOT.
The most obvious answer is that "the generation would not pass away" was revealed to him from his Father at that time, but the day or the hour was not.

Since he passed on this knowledge to us, it's the same thing that we're faced with, except Jesus presumably knew what he meant by "this generation".

So in summary, what I'm trying to say about your statement above is that Jesus could be talking about a generation that would not pass away even if even he didn’t know the day. There doesn't seem to be any logical contradiction to this.

This thread should really stick to earthquakes though, so I'll draw a line here for now.

the good egg
Posts: 117
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Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#54 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

apollos0fAlexandria wrote:
3 years ago
the good egg wrote:
3 years ago

This thread should really stick to earthquakes though, so I'll draw a line here for now.
I don't understand this statement. I went back to read your opening comments again, in case I missed something.

And I still don't understand it.

What you said concerning "the generation", that I understand. Of course I don't agree with it... but I understand what you said, and why you said it.

But the statement as of late, I do not.

Bobcat
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#55 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

good egg, just start a new thread and link back to this one or link back to your last post of your discussion.


Bobcat

Index to Matthew 24 Sign Threads

the good egg
Posts: 117
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#56 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Bobcat wrote:
3 years ago
good egg, just start a new thread and link back to this one or link back to your last post of your discussion.

Bobcat
Hey Bobcat

I suppose :)

But I wouldn’t know what to call it.
Or what to put in it.
Not sure I have anything to say.

I just thought I’d mention what I mentioned.

Best

Bobcat
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Joined: 7 years ago

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#57 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

But I wouldn’t know what to call it.
Or what to put in it.
Not sure I have anything to say.
You could start by outlining your idea, maybe in a verse-by-verse style, using a minimum of 'fluff.' At the very least it would give YOU a way to look at your idea knowing that it was also being scrutinized by others. This is a great way of forcing your own self to critically examine what you are proposing. It would, in a way, open your ideas to a sort of peer review. In science and research this is the norm. And it provides a way of vetting an idea.

So, in a way, your own thread could act as a personal research laboratory for your idea.

It's up to you. But you should probably accept the fact that you will never get total agreement on your idea. I believe the Bible was designed by God in such a way that heart conditions and motives (and not just logic or literary patterns) are very much involved in how we each react to God's Word. As humans, who can't read the heart, the reaction of other people to God's Word (or our attempts to explain it) may seem like a lot of confusion. But only God (and Christ) can read that reaction in a consistent way and make an accurate judgment about the person.

Rather than comment on your idea, I will say that it says a lot that you are attempting to unravel the Olivet Discourse. Most JWs, and other Christians as well, are content to let others do that, or simply accept it as an unsolvable mystery, or see a broad framework in it and let the details work themselves out. There is probably something to say for each of those avenues.


Bobcat

Index to Matthew 24 Sign Threads

jo-el
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#58 Post by jo-el » 3 years ago

the good egg wrote:
3 years ago
Please brother, don't go back to dissecting the word "generation".
When Jesus gave the discourse, I don't think He intended for the disciples to take a ship toe the Library of Alexandria to study what "generation" means.
Dissecting this word is for the governing ones of watchtower.
Jesus was talking to men of whom it was said "they did not attend our schools", just fisherman.
While you are correct that Jesus was speaking to mainly unschooled men, I believe you may have overlooked the intent of the information Jerome referenced and the benefit of it.

I would say one thing that is fairly evident is that Jesus gave this sermon, no doubt knowing it would be written down. So let us please separate the issue of what Jesus said and what WE are reading. Not necessarily exactly the same thing, certainly not always - and here is why:

We don't know for certain whether Jesus generally spoke to His disciples in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic.
So whatever words he actually used, they clearly included either this word, or something like this word "genea". The equivalent word in Aramaic has the same RANGE of meaning.
We do not speak Koine Greek, so we obviously rely on translations.
A translation relies on the translator(s) to select equivalent or roughly equivalent words in order to convey the intended meaning, so while some words may be very straight forward, the original range of meaning which is contained in "genea" is NOT contained in the word "generation".

While Jesus contemporaries certainly did not have to do it, WE personally, people of diverse languages or mainly English may have to pull down a concordance or as you say "take a ship to the Library of Alexandria", although some quite early disciples like Origen (late 2nd century) did engage in large-scale word comparison studies to help clarify the meanings and variants in the texts which make up the scriptures.

Another obvious example in this passage is the word "parousia" which has a meaning of either "presence" or "coming". In English those words are very different, but the meaning of "parousia" is the "arrival", "coming", "being beside", "near" especially of a "royal visit". The words "presence" and "coming" in English do not do justice to this word, because knowing the range of meaning we can now potentially see that when Jesus uses a variety of words in this passage within this range of meaning He is still answering the disciples questions. For example in v33 when He says "near" engys "it is at the doors". Or in v30 when He says erchomenon "coming on the clouds".

If we take the English uncritically then we would still be using the same word for Sheol, Hades and Gehenna - i.e. HELL - a very appropriate word in some ways, but it does not have the range of meaning to cover the different aspects of Sheol and Gehenna.

Also, as a side point while Jesus did indeed select many men who were considered unschooled, His disciples included others who were among those that wrote these things down.
Matthew was probably not unschooled being a tax collector, neither was Luke and if we theorise about exactly who Mark was, it seems likely he was also well educated and accompanied Peter to record things. In addition, Paul was extremely well educated as a Pharisee in the school of Gemaliel and uses many complex arguments to make the truth plain from as many angles as possible.

Phoebe
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#59 Post by Phoebe » 3 years ago

Hi there,

Great pointers given by Joel in the most recent post about the roots of 'genea'.

I was going to write something in the same vein but not a as much as a tiny smidge as eloquent or as clearly outlined, so I enjoyed the mapping out of my own understanding in a way that was easy to read.

Really, the scope of the word in Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek would have not been an academic issue of translation in the era that Jesus lived. 👍

the good egg
Posts: 117
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Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#60 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

apollos0fAlexandria wrote:
3 years ago

This thread should really stick to earthquakes though, so I'll draw a line here for now.
I understood that this thread was dead. Am I missing something here?

Could someone explain to me what I’m missing?

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