There Will Be Great Earthquakes

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the good egg
Posts: 117
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#21 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Bobcat. We can continue to disagree yet carry on politely.

I accept your points as I can see the information presented, however, I will continue to feel that the siege should be attributed to the highest ranking person.

I don't say this flippantly. In 2001, I flew to Italy and spent a month boning up on the history. I went to Rome to put my hand on the relief of the Menorah on the Arch of Titus to "bring home" the experience. I studied the various works and settled on PAUL JOHNSON who relates, on page 137 of his book "A History of the Jews", that it was Titus Flavius Vepasian to whom this is to be attributed. He admits that this event is "badly recorded" but he goes over all accounts carefully. I think the Wiki should be better written. IF you can find this book, although very thick, it's a good read. And if you get the chance, fly to Italy.

That said.

I think I understand correctly that Appolos is looking for the point at which Jesus changes from discussing the first century and begins discussing the second advent and end of the world. If I am correct in my understanding of our friend Appolos, then
I say this, Jesus does this twice and demonstrably so.

Are you men interested?

Bobcat
Posts: 3728
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#22 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago


Daniel12
Posts: 881
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#23 Post by Daniel12 » 3 years ago

Hi egg

I think the Wiki should be better written.
Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous volunteers who write without pay. Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity.

Wikipedia is a live collaboration differing from paper-based reference sources in important ways. Unlike printed encyclopedias, Wikipedia is continually created and updated, with articles on historic events appearing within minutes, rather than months or years. Because everybody can help improve it, Wikipedia has become more comprehensive than any other encyclopedia. In addition to quantity, its contributors work on improving quality as well. Wikipedia is a work-in-progress, with articles in various stages of completion. As articles develop, they tend to become more comprehensive and balanced. Quality also improves over time as misinformation and other errors are removed or repaire

Feel free! :dtt-write:

the good egg
Posts: 117
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#24 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Bobcat.

I want to commend you for your faith and interest in the Scriptures, not that my commendation is anything, who am I. I am just a simple soul as are you, fighting to keep the faith in a world lost to insanity. But still.
It is refreshing to see people who are interested in spiritual things. So many have turned godless. They look for any excuse to say there is no God. The rest cling to fables.

If I were to just paste here my research, it would be uniformly rejected I'm sure. Then I would suffer discouragement.
I recall the apostle Paul, who when on his way up to counsel the older men in Jerusalem, expressed that he was going to do it carefully, "so as not to be striking the air".

Now, I don't equate you men along with the older, and very argumentative, men of the self appointed counsel, or as the WTS refers to it, the governing body of the first century.
But the principle of explaining something important to others who might reject it wholesale, without proper consideration, is troublesome to an old man.

I rejected the truth of it for a long time, and upon reflection, I can tell you that it was because certain ideas were too precious to me to let go of.
For instance, the idea that earthquakes are Jesus call sign. There are 8,000,000 JWs and countless Baptists and other fundies who hold to this idea still. They get a 'faith boost' when others suffer.

I find it now to be quite repulsive. To suggest that my best friend, Jesus, would announce his visit by causing pain and suffering on a "Biblical scale"... What slander.

Anyhow, I am sure you, as did I, still have favourite ideas that you will not give up easily. These can prove very difficult.

The first thing you have to overcome is the idea that somebody besides yourself understands something that you do not. If indeed this can possibly be so.

Personally, my past self would have rejected what I will show here. Upon self examination I can see why, and what stood in my path.
As I grew in knowledge, I came to the point where I wished strongly that there would be somebody who could explain it. I too looked everywhere.

So, what I will do is point you, and any other reader, in the same direction that I gone.
If this is alright.

I will begin after I tend to my stomach. Peace.

the good egg
Posts: 117
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#25 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Alright. I have to show my face at the hall tonight, or else I risk getting deleted. I've missed quite a few meetings. So I will get the thing started and return at a later time.

Jesus was asked, basically, two questions. The first was 'when Jerusalem would fall', the second 'when the world would end with His return'.

So, how do you discern the middle?
If you please, imagine a piece of paper. You want to find the middle. So you fold one end upon the other and squeeze.
You see a crease. Can you argue that the crease is not the middle? Perhaps. I wouldn't. I would go about accepting that the middle has been located and I need to accept it.

I began by reading both ends. I accepted that He was going to answer the first question first so the things He first spoke were describing the first event, the fall of Jerusalem.
If I go the the end, I see statements that can only be attributed to the answer to the second question.

I worked my way in from both ends. To the middle.

Instead of me offering my opinion, I rather would wish that you men would do this. As I have to head to the hall, please entertain my suggestion.
I look forward to what you post.

Good evening.

Bobcat
Posts: 3728
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#26 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Hi good egg,

I appreciate your reply.

Using your 'paper folded in two' idea for arriving at the change from question one ('when will these things be') and question two ('what will be the sign of your parousia and the conclusion of the age'), then, see here for how to demarcate the first half of the paper, and see here for where the second half starts.

In effect, the summary parable of Mt 24:32-35 ends the first half of the page. And peri de, which verse 36 starts with, the second half. The second link shows the significance of that Greek expression which is translated irregularly in the NWT at Mt 24:36. The WT does not hold to any such demarcation in the Olivet Discourse and their rendering of peri de in Mt 24:36 (compared with how they render it elsewhere) shows that.


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#27 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Hi good egg,

Here is a post I made that addresses a translation issue involving Mt 24:32-35 and differences between Matthew's and Mark's rendition of the summary parable with Luke's.


Bobcat

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the good egg
Posts: 117
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Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#28 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Bobcat.

That sounds a great deal like preterism. You believe, then that the following took place in the first century.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Bobcat
Posts: 3728
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#29 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Hey good egg,

If "this generation" of Mt 24:34 refers to the same generation as the one in Mt 23:36, would that not imply that "all these things" (including Mt 24:9-31) were included as things that Jesus was saying would "take place" within that "generation"?

Additionally, Mt 24:29-31 were things that would happen "immediately after" the tribulation referred to in Mt 24:21-22.

So, even if you don't see how Mt 24:29-31 could have been fulfilled in the first century, the surrounding language that Jesus used says it did happen. In fact, Mt 24:34-35 assures us that it would.

As it is, there are alternate ways of rendering/understanding those verses. I have commented on these verses elsewhere.

As for preterism, my only interest is in understanding the account correctly.


Bobcat

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the good egg
Posts: 117
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: The last days

Re: There Will Be Great Earthquakes

#30 Post by the good egg » 3 years ago

Bobcat, Thanks for your comments. I also went to read much of your earlier comments to others.

I wholeheartedly agree on your comments regarding the two mentions of the “generation “. No question about it. The “generation” Jesus was referring to was his own. No other. And it’s long gone.

However, it does NOT imply that Mt. 24:9-31 are included as you suggest. (Insert drum roll here)

Have you ever heard the saying “If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.“

People keep doing the same thing, unwilling, for the most part, to step away from the thing and approach it from a new angle. I know I did exactly the same thing.

And so you are stuck trying to explain how the following verses took place in the first century.

“For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be mthe coming of the Son of Man. 28 nWherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

The result is an audience that cannot truly accept the explanation and are unable to build faith. It’s too lumpy and jagged. It doesn’t sound like the Jesus we’ve come to know from the rest of the letters. It doesn’t mesh. It begins to water down the rest of the accounts. It doesn’t bring it closer into focus. It pushes it farther away, it becomes distant and blurred.

The next thing you know, flying saucers sound just as plausible...

I’m speaking from experience. And I will defer to the comments of Apollo, here, who most certainly has read this explanation and yet still posts that he is still waiting for a more satisfactory explanation.

Am I incorrect?

Please consider what I say now.

The original letters had no numbers or divisions. You are trying to fold a paper that has already been demarcated and when you fold it, you are not folding it in half. You just think you have.

I want readers to consider this. When Germany was divided after WW2, it was cut in half. But that’s not the whole story.
Berlin, sitting within East Germany, was also cut in half. Remember this.

Take your favorite version and strip it of the numbers. Get rid of the spcaces. We are going to try folding this paper without outside influences. No distractions.

This time, take two highlighters of different colors. Use one color for the first question, the other color for the second. Start with the first verses and first color. Verse 4 “see that you are not led astray”. This is the first question’s answer beginning.

Verse 36 to 44 “the day and hour....the son of man is coming”, this is part of the answer to the second question. Hit it with the other color.

At verse 29 the English Standard Version has the header “The Coming of the Son of Man”. This is way off indeed.

The failing has been and continues to be the influences from others by way of the numbering, the headers, the separations in the text and in some cases, the deliver changing of both the original text and the meaning of the words Jesus used.

And while you are doing this, think about the Monk, riding hard on horseback in the rain, bandits on his trail and a satchel on his back containing these few copies of original documents from which today we have “the New Testament”...

I’m storytelling of course, but the point is made. We need to get back to what we started with.

Pick a news spot where the colors meet.

Best.

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