The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#81 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Hey John S,

You are exactly as I expect you to be. I never expected you to change your mind. Not about this. Not about anything really.

But I wanted to subject this idea to a fierce test to see if it could stand up. When I finish answering to your "point 4," I am going to post an index to your arguments and the replies so that anyone can easily look at them and decide for themselves what they think about it.

In the big picture, the 4th gospel is God's Word regardless of who had a hand in putting it into writing. But there is something extra to learn when one sees Lazarus as the writer.


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#82 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

This post will attempt to address "Point 4" that poster "John S" raised in this post. The way John expressed "Point 4" requires that I break that point down into several individual ideas:

4.Luke 22:14 “When the hour came, Jesus AND HIS APOSTLES reclined at the table,”
The false argument that only Jesus and his apostles were at the Last Supper was discussed in this post.

Luke 22:24 “Also a dispute arose among them, as to which of them was considered to be greatest...” again same old thing...tension, one of the Apostles was favored....
The false idea that Jesus loved one of the apostles more than the others was addressed in this post.

Luke 22:28,29 “You are those who have stood by me in my trials”......again since he chose these Apostles previously in Galilee long before Lazarus was known to him.
On what scriptural evidence indicates about when Lazarus started to associate with Jesus, see this post.

Luke 22:29,30 “And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve (12) tribes of Israel.”
The false idea that only the apostles had 'stuck with Jesus in his trials' is also covered in this post.

Anyway.....there are thousands of scholars now who will call the plays sitting in cigar smoke filled rooms loaded with thousands of Bible commentary, arguing theory, and conjecture, spewing testosterone like men of great pride in their knowledge do......just as we sometimes do here. And I will say it once more, I too, boast and say too much and THINK too much of my view.
None of this has anything much to do with the question at hand. But regarding "scholars" see this post under the sub-titles, "What Some 'Scholars' Say" and "Scholars" And "Commentaries".


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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#83 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Here is an index of the responses to the objections that poster John S raised in connection with the idea of Lazarus being "the beloved disciple" and thus, also the writer of the 4th gospel:
John S' list of 4 objections can be found: Here

And below are the 4 response posts with their associated sub-titles:
Response to point 1
  • What Does John 13:18 Indicate?
  • What Does Mark 14:18-20 Indicate?
  • How Harmonizing Shows What Is Possible
  • Do the Gospel Accounts Rule Out Others Being There?
  • Conclusion To "Point 1"
  • Notes
Response to point 2
  • How Big Was the Group at the Last Supper?
  • What Some 'Scholars' Say
  • When Did Lazarus Start to Associate With Jesus?
  • To Whom Was the Spirit "Doled Out" Initially?
  • "Scholars" And "Commentaries"
  • Conclusion to "Point 2"
Response to point 3
  • On the Apostles' Infighting and Who Jesus Loved Most
  • "Lord, What About Him?"
  • When Did John Get to be Credited With the 4th Gospel?
  • What About Lazarus' "Worthiness"?

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John S
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#84 Post by John S » 1 year ago

Matthew 26:19,20...

“And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover.

Now when the even was come, he SAT DOWN WITH THE TWELVE.”

Luke 22:14....

“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.”

How can you distort such simple statements ?

Lazarus was not an apostle. He was not there. John 13:21-26

John was....and he recorded the dialogue, and the event which he personally was experienced.

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#85 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

John S said:

Matthew 26:19,20...

“And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover.

Now when the even was come, he SAT DOWN WITH THE TWELVE.”

Luke 22:14....

“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.”

How can you distort such simple statements ?

Lazarus was not an apostle. He was not there. John 13:21-26

John was...

John, you are the one distorting things by not accepting ALL of the information presented in the 4 gospel accounts.

Your objection was already covered in my "Response to point 1", which, the link to that response can be found in the index here.

But I am glad you brought this up again. Any new guests and lurkers who come upon your objection can also see the response you were given.


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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#86 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

This post is in connection with this one where I discuss information related to Jesus' assignment of his mother to the "beloved disciple" in Jn 19:25-27.

I was gathering thoughts on Act 6:2 where "the twelve" decline to be detoured into spending their time taking care of widows. Instead, they have the congregation select 7 men to take care of that, saying, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to wait on tables." (Ac 6:2 NET)

The point being, if that determination of "the twelve" is true, then, why would Jesus assign the care of his mother to the apostle John, who was assigned as one of "the twelve," and who already had a mother to take care of. Someone else, like Lazarus, who also had two sisters, and all three loved Jesus and were loved by Jesus, and had a home (unlike John who had left all things behind - Mt 19:27), yes, Lazarus along with his sisters would make a much more suitable assignment to care for Jesus' mother. (Jn 11:5)

In connection with Acts 6:2, Constable's Notes comments:
The 12 apostles wisely delegated responsibility for this ministry to other qualified men in the congregation so it would not distract them from their primary duties. This is the only reference to the Twelve in Acts (cf. 1 Cor. 15:5), though Luke referred to the Eleven earlier (Ac 2:14). Serving tables probably involved the organization and administration of ministry to the widows rather than simply serving as waiters or dispensers (cf. Matt. 21:12; Luke 19:23).

Similarly, Barnes Notes on the NT comments on Acts 6:2 KJV
It is not reason - The original words used here properly denote "it is not pleasing or agreeable"; but the meaning evidently is, it is not "suitable" or "proper." It would be a departure from the design of their appointment, which was to preach the gospel, and not to attend to the pecuniary affairs of the church.

Leave the word of God - That we should neglect or abandon the preaching of the gospel so much as would be necessary if we attended personally to the distribution of the alms of the church. The "gospel" is here called the "Word of God," because it is his message; it is what he has spoken, or which he has commanded to be proclaimed to people.

Serve tables - This expression properly denotes "to take care of, or provide for the table, or for the daily needs of a family." It is an expression that properly applies to a steward or a servant. The word "tables" is, however, sometimes used with reference to "money," as being the place where money was kept for the purpose of "exchange, etc.," Matthew 21:12; Matthew 25:27. Here the expression means, therefore, to attend to the pecuniary transactions of the church, and to make the proper distribution for the needs of the poor.

It doesn't appear that either of these commentaries saw any connection between Acts 6:2 and Jesus' assignment of the care of his mother. Yet, the apostles' words at Acts 6:2 make it seem unlikely that Jesus would burden "the twelve" with duties that would make their primary assignment unworkable.

As I find any more specific commentary pertaining to this I will post it here. (Concerning the "beloved disciple" taking Jesus' mother to his own home "in that very hour," see this post.)


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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#87 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

An interesting and in depth article on the differences between the 4th gospel and the synoptic gospels, here.

The writer of the article assumes that the 4th gospel is written by John. But much of his material would make better sense if the 4th gospel were written by a Judean (like Lazarus) rather than a Galilean (like the apostle John).

One of the points made was to note the many similarities between the 4th gospel and the Qumran documents. The Qumran community (the Essenes) was located near the dead sea, which is south of Jerusalem, and in the opposite direction from Galilee. It was, essentially, a Judean sect.


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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#88 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Some other web pages dealing with this subject:

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Stranger
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#89 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Hi Bobcat,

It sounds like you and Alan Rudnick are on the same page. Traditional believers will never accept Lazarus as being that disciple, and the church has kept many people blind to this enhanced knowledge, such as John S.


Stranger, (Jn 11:3)

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#90 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Hi Stranger,

Yea, think of the ramifications: Lazarus having a closer relationship with Jesus than the apostles. He didn't have to be one of the twelve to have that. He also didn't have to be of "the twelve" to produce a magnificent gospel account; one unlike any of the other three.

For the better part of two thousand years R&F christians have been under the impression that they were dependant on a clergy class for their spiritual needs, not knowing they could be like Lazarus in their relationship with Jesus and in their understanding of the truth. Instead, they have been made to think, just like John S expressed, that they were "unworthy" of such things.

I would think that the clergy that has developed (including JW leadership) have had good reason to suppress (wittingly or not) the truth about Lazarus. They also generally think that such ordinary people like Lazarus are unworthy to be used by God and Christ in the way they imagine they are being used. (Jn 7:49; Ac 4:13) Such knowledge would not work well with the development of the "man of lawlessness" either. (2Th 2:3-12) Since that was an 'operation of Satan' (2Th 2:9), I would suspect that he too saw the danger of this information becoming available. I guess it would also work well, from his standpoint, to have people think that Jesus can only be 'tight' with his inner circle, just like imperfect humans tend to be. That would help keep the 'masses' of people a 'safe' distance away from Jesus and his Father.

Who knows, but maybe this knowledge is part of what gets to be known shortly before the "man of lawlessness" is done away with. (Rev 10:7; 2Th 2:8) It would certainly be an ironic plot twist.

Anyways, something to think about.


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