The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

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Stranger
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#71 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

John S wrote:
1 year ago
I swear, sometimes I feel im just beating my head against the wall.
That could be dangerous John, always try to take care of your metal health.

You don't want to wind up like this guy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMEz4cFMlZE



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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#72 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

This post will attempt to address "Point 2" that poster "John S" raised in this post. The way John expressed "Point 2" requires that I break that point down into several individual ideas:


How Big Was the Group at the Last Supper?
2. He washed the feet of his disciples. So.....do we discern a considerable sized crowd here? We know if Lazarus was there on this very last night...his sisters would probably be there too. They never missed an occasion to be with Christ.

I already covered Mr 14:18-20 and Jn 13:18 in post # 67 above. Both passages indicate that others, besides the apostles, were there at the Last Supper. How many? I don't know. I can't think of any gospel passage that gives that information. Mr 14:15 & Lu 22:12 both indicate they used a "large" upstairs room. (Mt 26:18 doesn't refer to the specific room. Acts 1:13-14 gives an example of an "upper room" holding about 120 people). The account in John does says that Jesus completed the feet washing. (Jn 13:12) So I would have to imagine that, however many were there, it would have had to be a manageable number. But the available gospel information does allow for the possibility of a room that could hold far more than 13.

You have to remember John, as I already said to you, that to get the complete picture you will have to combine the accounts. Each gospel writer included what information he decided was necessary for his account. Or, it might be more proper to say that Holy Spirit was involved to. But Holy Spirit can see the whole picture, whereas, the individual human writer only sees within his own framework or view. This is why all the accounts present a more complete picture than just one.

Incidentally, the 4th gospel account starts its description of the Last Supper when it was already in progress. (Jn 13:2-4) This allows for the possibility that Jesus sat down at the main table with just the twelve (per Mt 26:20) and "the disciple Jesus loved" (i.e. Lazarus) joined at the table later.

John answered about Luke 22 in another post:
Read Luke 22.....

Look at the intimacy of the whole event. A last night with the twelve Apostles....giving them the New Covenant, and teaching them about the Holy Spirit implant. This is not a meeting for the general body of disciples. It is for the foundation of the Christian congregation.

There is nothing more for me to say about this than what I said above. You have to look at all the accounts to get the complete picture. And Mr 14:18-20 and Jn 13:18 show others to be there. What you said about Luke 22 is more about your own perception than about what the gospel accounts actually say.


What Some 'Scholars' Say

John said:
Some ‘scholars‘ ... claim Mary Magdalene was laying in front of Jesus at the Passover meal. She was the disciple Jesus loved. Or one of the other disciples was Jesus gay lover ... sure this is being claimed also.

Some state Mary Magdalene was secretly Jesus’ wife, and maybe they had a baby....and so on, and so on.

John, no one in this thread has said anything about these ideas. The whole thread is about whether Lazarus was the "beloved disciple." So I won't address any of these ideas.


When Did Lazarus Start to Associate With Jesus?

John said:
“When the Counselor comes , whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also, must testify, FOR YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.” John 15:26, 27

So when did Lazarus start to associate with Jesus and the Apostles?

First, you are mistaken if you think Jesus started with just the twelve and gained other disciples from there. For example, Luke 6:12-13 says:
12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles.
Mark 3:13-14 says:
13 And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach
Matthew 10:1 says:
1 And he called to him his twelve disciples ...

These three examples show again that you cannot get the complete picture unless you combine the accounts. In this instance, Luke 6:12-13 shows that Jesus had a group of disciples, larger than just 12, from which he chose his 12 apostles. Acts 1:21-22 also shows this when they were selecting a replacement for Judas. And thus, when Jn 15:27 speaks of "you [who] have been with me from the beginning," Jesus is speaking to all the disciples that were at the Last Supper, not just the twelve, just as Jn 13:18 indicated.

But what about Lazarus? Was he with Jesus "from the beginning"? Well, what about the other disciples in Luke 6:12-13, the ones not selected as apostles? Were all their names given? Of course, the answer is no. So there is the possibility that Lazarus was among those early disciples. Why was Lazarus living at home when the account mentions him being sick? (Jn 11:1-3) How long had he been there? We don't know. The account just doesn't say.

Was Lazarus a "sickly" person, like you said? Was he a "kid"? I don't know where you are getting all that. That's your imagination telling you that, not the gospels.

Another indication that Lazarus was possibly an early disciple is in Jn 11:11. After referring to how Lazarus fell sick, the account says:
11 After saying these things, [Jesus] said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”

So how did Lazarus get to be "our friend" if he hadn't spent time with Jesus and the other disciples? Obviously, he did spend time with them, enough that he could become "our friend."

John 1:36-39 gives one possibility. It mentions two disciples of John the baptist who followed after Jesus. One of them was Andrew. As Jn 1:40-41 shows, the other disciple was not his brother Peter. Is this other disciple Lazarus? The account doesn't say. It is also possible that he is John. But the account just does not say. But it is interesting that Peter and the "beloved disciple" interact throughout the second half of the 4th gospel.

But the point I am making is that the 4th gospel does present enough information to make it possible that Lazarus was a disciple of Jesus "from the beginning." Anyone who says that he definitely wasn't is either lying, or is unaware of what the gospel accounts actually say.


To Whom Was the Spirit "Doled Out" Initially?

John said:
The Spirit was doled out to others from the Apostles. Not regular disciples.

Acts 2:1-4 says:
1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Constable's Notes on this passage says:
The antecedent of “they” [in Ac 2:1] is apparently the believers Luke mentioned in Ac 1:15. It is not possible to identify the place (lit. the house, Gr. ton oikon) where they assembled certainly. Perhaps it was the upper room already mentioned (Ac 1:13) or another house. Clearly the disciples were indoors (Ac 2:2)
Other references I have on this passage also agree that the "they" in Ac 2:1 refers to the 120 in Ac 1:15. The reason given is that when Peter explained to the crowd about what was happening, he quotes from the book of Joel (Joe 2:28-31) where Peter refers to "daughters" (Ac 2:17) and "female slaves" (Ac 2:18) as among those having the Spirit poured out on them.

Regarding Jn 20:22, the context says that it was Jesus' "disciples" that were gathered. (Jn 20:19) And the context also distinguishes "disciples" from just "the twelve" (Jn 20:24). A distinction which would not be necessary if "disciples" in Jn 20:19 was referring only to "the twelve."


"Scholars" And "Commentaries"

John, like a few others, you always speak against such things as Bible references and commentaries and "Scholars." This always gives me a chuckle. When you (and others) say such things, you sound like used car salesmen to me. 'Don't listen to them. You can't trust them.' But then you go right on and give your own commentary as if you aren't also one of "them." That you are somehow different from "them."

As far as I am concerned, I lump you (and others) in the same box with "them." You, "them" and me too, we're all human, just as the writers of those Bible references are. If they had "motives," then, as far as I am concerned, you (we) do to. So you are really wasting your breath telling me who to consult and who not to. I weigh out what they say, just like I weigh out what you say. What's worthwhile I save, what isn't, I don't.


Conclusion to "Point 2"

To summarize this post: It addresses "Point # 2" that poster "John S" raised. And its sole purpose is to show that, regarding the points John S raised, the gospel accounts show that it is still possible for Lazarus to have been the "beloved disciple" of the 4th gospel account.

I will try and pickup on your 3rd point in my next post.


Bobcat

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Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#73 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Yes, we don't recommend head beating around here.

1Ki 18:28 has something slightly safer. :D Just kidding. I recommend Lu 18:13.


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AmosAu3
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#74 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 year ago

Hi John,

You never seem to be able to remain level for too long.

Many of your responses are really very good. However, there are many times that you just don't seem to be able to see "the forest for the trees!"

Please take time to understand what others are actually saying and NOT what you think they are saying.

Regards, Amos.

Stranger
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#75 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

I think Jesus loved Lazarus because of his weaknesses, one weakness Lazarus didn't have I would say is attentiveness. He must have showed true faith in Jesus the Man (Messiah), and Jesus the Christ (Lord God). (Jn 18:8) "Jesus of Nazareth, Defender of the weak." Ask Mal'chus. (Jn 18:10)


Lazarus may have had hidden qualities not found in the others that only Jesus could recognize. For all we know at this point Lazarus could be on the throne with the Lord, and while we are talking about it, Stephen as well could be at the Lord's side. (One would do well to hinder all JW bias thought to vision such a magnified sight.)


Stranger, (Ps 143:5)

AmosAu3
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#76 Post by AmosAu3 » 1 year ago

Hi John,

You said the following,
"Lazarus was never a ‘player’.....always just a kid, or someone whose sisters gained the attention. He is never quoted once as stating or asking anything."

What do you base this assumption on regarding Lazarus? Quote; "always just a kid".

John, don't you ever read the related scriptures that are quote OR referred to in other peoples posts? Don't blame CI if you don't do your own research.

Amos.

John S
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#77 Post by John S » 1 year ago

I mainly can just read the Bible and get all the information I need.

Its plain as day Lazarus was not Reclining in front of Jesus at this night . Luke 22:14.......

“When the hour came, Jesus and the Apostles reclined at the table.”


Not Lazarus, nobody else.

Thats it. im done with this .

Jesus said he was with them from the beginning. Lazarus was 8 miles from Jerusalem when Jesus began his ministry in Galilee, and was with James and John from the beginning of his ministry.

No proof, entirely none that Lazarus was the disciple that Jesus loved, that gave the morsel to Peter, and absolutely would he not benture into the courtyard of the High Priest.

John S
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#78 Post by John S » 1 year ago

Purely false reasoning.

Anyway, those claiming this crazy idea are doing this:

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

“They will turn their eats away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” 2 Tim. 4:3,4

This is just another example of scholars and now some here are continually throwing up a case against the veracity of the scriptural accounts.

Casting doubt on God’s ability to guide the ancient writings down through the centuries to the very important last days .

Ok, go ahead. Believe whatever you want. I recommend any reader here put faith in your Bibles. The Holy Spirit and the truth is there in your hand. Don’t let the doubts of some destroy your faith.

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#79 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

This post will attempt to address "Point 3" that poster "John S" raised in this post. The way John expressed "Point 3" requires that I break that point down into several individual ideas:


On the Apostles' Infighting and Who Jesus Loved Most

John said:
3. There was MUCH infighting among the 12. Why? Because Jesus loved one more than the others. Why? I don’t know. Maybe one of them OBEYED his words better? That seems likely. This is an underlying theme in John’s Gospel. “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” John 15:10 and compare 1 John 5:3

They were always asking who was the greatest among them, who would sit at Jesus’ right hand in the Kingdom. James and John’s mom even got involved.

Notice what you said John:
"There was MUCH infighting among the 12. Why? Jesus loved one more than the others. Why? I don’t know."

John, what you said about the infighting among the twelve is very true. And one can find many examples of it in the gospel accounts. But where does it say that Jesus loved one of the 12 more than the rest of the twelve?

John. Listen. It doesn't. No where in the gospels does it say that one of the twelve is more loved by Jesus. The 4th gospel, and the 4th gospel only, does refer to someone described as "the one Jesus loved." But it never says that this one is one of the twelve. No where, except in people's own minds.

Again, John said, "Why?" [That is, 'why did Jesus love one of the twelve more than the others of the twelve?']

And John responds to his own question, "I don't know."

And I respond: "Exactly! John! You don't know why because the gospel accounts don't say why. And they don't say why because they never said that Jesus loved one of the twelve more than the other apostles.

You are trying to describe something that you have been taught all your life, but that the gospels have never taught. This is why your explanation of it runs into a dead end. You 'don't know why.' And you can't know why, because it never was, except in your own perception and thinking.

For any interested, the PDF that I linked to in the opening post of this thread has a chapter that discusses whether the gospel accounts portray the apostle John as more loved by Jesus. The chapter also discusses whether John was known for better conduct than the other apostles which might elicit more love from Jesus. You can find that chapter here.

I invite you to examine the linked information to see for yourselves. To its credit, the PDF focuses strictly on the scriptures.


"Lord, What About Him?"

John said:
Peter REALLY was jealous of John, and was even asking after Jesus was resurrected, about John, when Jesus told Peter he would suffer a death like his, in chains. So Peter looks behind him at John, as the Fishermen disciples had just come in with the miracle catch.....”Lord , what about him!” .....right.....the whining jealousy reappears.

Lazarus is not there, hanging around out in a fishing boat, throwing and hauling heavy nets, whatever.

John, here is what the account says. John 21:1-3, 7-8, 20-21 (ESV):
1 After this Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples by the Sea of Tiberias, and he revealed himself in this way. 2 Simon Peter, Thomas (called the Twin), Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 3 Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.” They said to him, “We will go with you.” They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing. . . [They make the miraculous catch of fish] . . .

7 That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea. 8 The other disciples came in the boat, . . .

[after they ate (Jn 21:9-14)], [and after Peter was questioned by Jesus (Jn 21:15-19)] . . . 20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” (Jn 13:25), 21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?”

So John, crewing the boat were: Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of Zebedee (James & John), and two others of his disciples. Seven disciples total, two of which are unnamed. The fact that two are unnamed means that Lazarus' presence on this occasion cannot be ruled out.

John is never personally named in this passage either (nor is Lazarus for that matter). The dialogue is only between Peter and "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

So John, honestly, you would have to definitely identify "the disciple Jesus loved" before you can honestly say that it was John.

At this point, there is still nothing that prevents Lazarus from being identified with "the disciple Jesus loved."


When Did John Get to be Credited With the 4th Gospel?
So, and finally here is what I continue to emphasize, because its just too obvious:

Those who were there at the time, Christians in the first century, who eagerly read the new gospel we know as John’s today....would have asked, “who wrote this masterpiece of the intimate details of the last night Jesus was alive with the 12”.

Here is the article from Encyclopedia Britannica that discusses who wrote the 4th gospel account. Interestingly, the article expresses the idea that John is "the beloved disciple" (without any discussion of why), but it still points out that the authorship of the 4th gospel is a mystery, and for several reasons.

Internally, that is, evidence within the 4th gospel itself, links the writer to "the beloved disciple." (Jn 21:20-24) And as I've been trying to show in these replies to your objections, and just as the encyclopedia article admits, and just as you admitted when you said you did not know why Jesus loved John more than the other apostles; all these things demonstrate that, when you try to say that John is the beloved disciple, you run into difficulties.

The 4th gospel never links "the beloved disciple" with John. But it does link the "beloved disciple" specifically to Lazarus. (Jn 11:1-3, 5, 35-36) Before John chapter 11, both Lazarus and "the beloved disciple are never mentioned. In chapter 11 Lazarus is identified as the one Jesus loved (along with his sisters). After that, Lazarus is only mentioned again by name in connection with a dinner 6 days before Passover (Jn 12:1-2) and with the plot to kill Lazarus due to the notoriety he was bringing to Jesus. (Jn 12:9-11, 17-18) After that, the name "Lazarus" disappears from the 4th gospel and "the beloved disciple" suddenly appears. (Jn 13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20) This is more than a little peculiar.

The apostle John is never mentioned by name in the entire 4th gospel. This is why it can be said that the 4th gospel never links John to the "beloved disciple." But this is also why some say the beloved disciple is John. But as pointed out above, you run into difficulties when you try to do that.

The solution to these problems is to accept the Judean Lazarus as the writer of this Judean-centric 4th gospel account, and accept the apostle John as the editor who accidentally gets credited with writing it.


What About Lazarus' "Worthiness"?
Certainly Lazarus would not be WORTHY of this reward, nor was he eyewitness to all of these travels and speeches Jesus gave, etc. John was there and heard every word. The Spirit brought BACK TO HIS MIND all the things Jesus taught .....as Jesus said it would.

John, look again at what you said:
nor was [Lazarus] eyewitness to all of these travels and speeches Jesus gave

John, in a sense, you are answering your own questions. It is well known that the 4th gospel does not contain most of the accounts in the synoptic gospels. And you say that Lazarus did not accompany Jesus on most of his travels. Would not this be the very reason why the 4th gospel is like it is? With Lazarus as its writer? The 4th gospel contains the things the Judean Lazarus was familiar with. This is what makes the 4th gospel so different from the synoptics. This is why most of the content of the 4th gospel is not found in the synoptic gospels and visa-versa.

John said:
Certainly Lazarus would not be WORTHY of this reward

John, you should try telling Jesus this. (Jn 11:1-3, 5, 35-36) And maybe tell Jehovah this too. He inspired the writer of the 4th gospel to say that anyone who puts faith in Jesus can become one of His children. (Jn 1:12; Incidentally, notice how this thought of becoming God's children is the center point of the 2nd chiasm in this post which is outlining the prologue of the 4th gospel.)

And see at the bottom of this post . It shows how, with Lazarus as the writer of the 4th gospel, each gospel would still be associated with an apostle.

On the other hand, I think the Jewish religious leaders would agree with you about Lazarus. (Jn 7:49) But how would Mark be "worthy" or the gentile Luke if Lazarus wasn't? (Col 4:10-11, 14)

There was a 4th objection you made. I'll try to cover that in another post.


Bobcat

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John S
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#80 Post by John S » 1 year ago

You are not reasoning on anything the scriptures say about the matter.

It says the 12 Apostles went into the meal.

You say......”well it doesnt say Lazarus Wasn’T There!”

This is your argument throughout.

You insinuate Lazarus was the disciple who was at the passover meal,
laying in front of Jesus, in his bosom, or very near him, and taking the bread from Peter....when it clearly states the 12 were there specifically for the Passover.

Peter and John had issues. lazarus was not a fisherman.

Lazarus was a very young man. His sisters, one who may have been a prostitute even, before Jesus came, was a very young woman with fine hair, and could outrun all of the Apostles in a foot race. Lazarus and his sisters were indeed young people.

His sudden death was a great source of grief, a tragedy that all mourned, not an old guy like myself, who can go at any minute.

And no, he is never quoted as being any spiritual leader during Jesus’ ministry, or one of the 70 who were sent out to minister. He is not a spiritual leader, but just a ‘friend’ of Christ’s . Unlike John, who shared Jesus’ trials from the beginning of the 3 1/2 year long ministry.

No....one seriously cannot equate the favorite disciple as the author of what we have passed down to us for 2000 years....

...The Gospel of JOHN.

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