The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

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Bobcat
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The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#1 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

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I put this under "Controversial" due to the fact that it may (especially at first glance) be very controversial. If it can be moved it would probably fit under "Bible Doctrines" or "General Chat."

Poster Coccus ilicis posted a link to a booklet on whether Lazarus was the "beloved disciple" of the gospel of John. Here is a link to a PDF of that booklet. (And many thanks for that CI!)

Here is a blog post from someone else who also has the same view. As far as I can tell, the two links are not related or associated with each other. So you have two separate linked viewpoints to the same subject.

They both arrive at the same conclusion. The first link has some 70 pages of buildup before identifying Lazarus. The second link lays out his idea about Lazarus near the beginning and then builds his case.

What I find most interesting is the logic both use to build their case.

What probably makes this most "controversial" is that the person who is the "beloved disciple" is also the writer of the fourth gospel account. So, if you are accepting the one idea, you are also accepting the other.

If your mind is like mine, initially there is a huge wall, like the walls of Babylon, that says "whoa!, hold on just a minute!." But I found the writeups surprising for the logic they used.

At any rate, I have some further comments about the matter, but I did not want to create any leaning for or against so as to allow anyone else interested to give it their consideration without any preconceived judgment of the topic.

I should also mention, NONE of this is an attempt to question the inspiration of the Bible or of the fourth gospel account.


Bobcat

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apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#2 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 3 years ago

whoa!, hold on just a minute!.

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#3 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

apollos0fAlexandria wrote:
3 years ago
whoa!, hold on just a minute!.
You see why I put it in controversial. And yet, the logic behind it is very straightforward. Equally fascinating are the arguments that say it was John.


Bobcat

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apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#4 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 3 years ago

Hi Bobcat - I should have added an emoji. I haven't actually read any of it yet. I was just quoting from your post. Apologies for my sense of humor :P

P.S. I'm very interested and will certainly read the material though.

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#5 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Here is a humor emoji for you:

Oh, and yes, I'm looking forward to your take on the thread.


Bobcat

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DeborahsTree
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#6 Post by DeborahsTree » 3 years ago

Comment:

The Gospel of John is a stand alone Gospel. It and the Synoptic Gospels are too disparate to attempt anything but a rudimentary alignment.

It is interesting that Peter and the Beloved Disciple are continually interacting with one another in some fashion and at every turn that interaction is directly connected to the last days of the Lord and his resurrection.


John 13:23,24 "There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. So Simon Peter *gestured to him, and *said to him, "Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking."

John 20:2 "So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."

John 20:3 "So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb."

John 21:7 "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea."

John 21:20,21 "Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?"

The Beloved Disciple has personal interaction with only Peter (no verbal interaction with the other Apostles are in the record) at the Last Supper, the Tomb and when first seeing the Lord while they were fishing.

The Beloved Disciple, though, does make one named appearance without Peter and that is at the cross with Christ's female disciples and his mother. Peter is not there, neither are the other Apostles. Why is it that the Beloved Disciple is there at the cross but no other male disciples are there?

Could it be because the Beloved Disciple was the unnamed disciple who knew the high priest?

John 18:15,16 "Simon Peter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now that disciple was known to the high priest, and entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest, but Peter was standing at the door outside. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the doorkeeper, and brought Peter in."

Here is a disciple closely associated with Peter and who was known to the high priest and even entered with Jesus into the court.

It would seem that a man with such access would also have been allowed to personally witness the execution of his Lord and Master. That male disciple who witnessed Christ's death was the Beloved Disciple. Having been known by the high priest he would have less reason to fear as the other male disciples apparently did.

But if this argument makes sense (or has some worth) it bars Lazarus from being the Beloved Disciple, the one who had access to the court of the high priest:

John 12:9-11 "The large crowd of the Jews then learned that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He raised from the dead. But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus."

Also, Lazarus is not shown to be intimate with Christ's Apostles and close disciples something the Beloved Disciple is comfortable with. Lazarus, on the other hand, comes into the record only with his sisters, Martha and Mary. First when he dies and they send for Christ and later apparently in their house.

So I not believe the Gospel of John points to Lazarus as the Beloved Disciple. Neither does it clearly identify the Apostle John as being that disciple but all in all it seems more likely than not. The second letter of John is a tender letter, a loving letter easily associated with a man Jesus would love and of course the first letter of John seeps with the elements of light and darkness found in the Gospel and the loving intimate relationship of a beloved disciple with his Lord, Christ Jesus.

But perhaps the greatest testimony to the Apostle John being the Beloved Disciple comes from Christ himself:

John 21:21-24 "So Peter seeing him *said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" Jesus *said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."

Rev 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,"

John did eventually die but not before he saw the Lord, not before he saw the Lord come in the spirit:

Rev 1:17,18 "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

"If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?

leaving_quietly
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#7 Post by leaving_quietly » 3 years ago

My friend, who claims to hear the Lord, has said that she was once told this same thing by a friend and did not accept it until the Lord told her it was true, and not only that, but that same one (Lazarus) wrote "Hebrews", and that Lazarus was indeed the one whom he loved. Both books are written anonymously, and, according to what she said the Lord said to her, it was because of his (Lazarus') great humility that he loved him so much. Her friend could have been referencing this book that Bobcat linked to. She didn't say. But, she said the Lord said it was true, and I personally have no reason to not accept it other than "tradition". So, maybe it is. I'm going to read these. Thanks, Bobcat!

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#8 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

DeborahsTree wrote:
3 years ago
Comment:

John 13:23,24 "There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. So Simon Peter *gestured to him, and *said to him, "Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking."
If I remember correctly, this was one place that the 1st link and the 2nd differed slightly in their respective explanations. I'll have to look at it again to see the difference.

But perhaps the greatest testimony to the Apostle John being the Beloved Disciple comes from Christ himself:

John 21:21-24 "So Peter seeing him *said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" Jesus *said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."anation.

Rev 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,"

John did eventually die but not before he saw the Lord, not before he saw the Lord come in the spirit:

Rev 1:17,18 "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

"If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?
This was how I always understood these points. I remember the blog brought up a different and unexpected explanation for this. I don't quite remember how the pdf handled this.

Thanks for your input Deb.

LQ, looking forward to your further comments.


Bobcat

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Jerome
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#9 Post by Jerome » 3 years ago

I just read the blog so far and have two questions that I didn't see addressed:
Whether this was a Passover meal or not, according to Matthew 26:20-23 the twelve were him. The scriptures give us the names of the twelve and Lazarus is not one of them. Were there others beside the twelve at this meal?
Secondly, one of the theories put forth was that Lazarus being from Jerusalem would, more likely than John from Galilee, be known to the high priest.
However, weren't the chief priest's looking to kill Lazarus to cover over the evidence of his resurrection? (John 12:10)

Whoa! Wait just a minute!

Jerome

Bobcat
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Re: The Disciple Jesus Loved = Lazarus?

#10 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Hey Jerome,

Those were my two main concerns also. I think the blog (not sure if I am remembering correctly) suggests the meal at Jn 13 was not the last supper. The pdf (I think) does view it as the last supper. This was one of the subtle differences between the two.

Off hand, I don't remember how they dealt with the detail about the leaders wanting to kill Lazarus, and his being around them afterwards.


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