When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

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Bobcat
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Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#21 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Is there any other vision in Revelation where John was shown a vision of something that had already happened?
Well, let's see:

Rev 4:1 (NWT) says:
After this I saw, and look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.”

So, if one were to take these words as referring to John only seeing things that were to occur future from then (mid-90s CE or thereabouts), then, everything John sees from here on in the Revelation must be something that only occurred future from then. So, let's see if that strictly 'future only' view holds up:

  • Rev 4:2-3, John sees someone seated on a throne. Is this future only? Or is this something He has always been doing? If one takes Rev 4:1 as having to mean only future from when John receives the Revelation, then, this is something God only started doing since about the mid-90s CE or afterwards.
  • Rev 4:8 has the four living creatures saying "Holy, holy, holy ..." Is this something they only do future from when John sees the vision? Or have they been doing this for a long time before this? (Isa 6:3)
  • Rev 4:9-10 "And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the one who sits on the throne ..." Only future from mid-90s CE? Or have they been doing this for a long time already?
  • Rev 5:5, 6 "Look! The Lion of the tribe Judah ... has conquered ... appeared to have been killed." Future from mid-90s CE?
  • Rev 5:9, 10 "... because you were killed and with your blood you have purchased for God persons ..." Something that happened future from mid-90s CE?
  • Rev 6:2 "... and here came a white horse! The one who rode it had a bow, and he was given a crown ..." Col 1:13 has Jesus with a kingdom, implying he already was crowned. Heb 2:9 has Jesus then presently with a crown (early 60s CE?). See also this post for other scriptural evidence that Jesus was crowned upon his return to heaven.
  • Rev 6:9 John sees the souls who had been violently killed because of the Word of God and their testimony. Only after mid-90s CE? I think Stephen would disagree. (Ac 7:58-60)
  • Rev 12:1 'A woman clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars.' As someone already mentioned, the description is drawn from OT imagery of Israel. Constable's Notes comments:
    In view of Old Testament imagery (cf. Isa 54:1-6; Jer 3:20; Ezek 16:8-14; Hos 2:19-20) and the following reasons, the “woman” seems to symbolize the nation of Israel. She wears a crown (Gr. stephanos) with the sun, moon, and stars, as God pictured Israel in one of the nation’s early symbolic representations (Gen 37:9-11; cf. Isa 26:17-18; 60:1-3, 20). There are many figurative references to Israel as a travailing woman in the Old Testament (Isa 26:17-18; 66:7-9; Jer 4:31; 13:21; Mic 4:10; 5:3). She eventually gave birth to Christ (Rev 12:5). In Genesis 37:9-10, the sun corresponds to Jacob, the moon to Rachel, and the 12 stars to Israel’s 12 sons. [End of quote]
    Mt 21:43, Gal 6:16, Jas 1:1 & 1Pe 2:9 could be used to show that the imagery of the "woman" of Rev 12:1-3 as Israel can be extended from Israel under the Law Covenant (which produced the Messiah, that is, the "child" of Rev 12:5), to also across the Christian era under the New Covenant (which produces the woman's further offspring - Rev 12:17; Gal 3:25-29).
  • Rev 12:4a "... the dragon's tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and hurled them to the earth." I take this as a reference to what happened in Gen 6:1-4. I think you take this differently if I remember correctly. (See here.)
  • Rev 12:4b ''The dragon kept standing before the woman to devour her child.' I take this as describing efforts by Satan to prevent the Messiah during all the time of the nation of Israel. All of which would be prior to mid-90s CE.
  • Rev 12:5 'The child is born and caught away to the throne of God.' Which I take as a reference to Jesus, his ministry, sacrifice, and glorification. All pre-90s CE. And for the reader, see the discussion of this above (here).
  • Rev 13:2 The dragon gave to the beast his power, his throne, and great authority to rule. This was something already claimed by Satan back in about 29 CE. (Lu 4:5-6) (And see the last two paragraphs of this post below.)
  • Rev 14:6, 7 An angel has good news to preach to the whole world, with the message to repent. Acts 17:30-31 indicates this was already going on (mid-50s CE). It continues past the 90s CE. But it started before that. (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 1:8)
  • Rev 18:24 "In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” That sounds like it covers across many centuries before mid-90s CE.

Well, that's my tally of things that had already happened, or had already started to happen, before John received the Revelation, and before he was told what was said in Rev 4:1. Although, somehow, I don't think we will end up agreeing to anything. Yet, I am glad to have these things cataloged, even if piece by piece.

Just as an aside for the reader, since Rev 13:2 and Lu 4:5-6 have been mentioned above: See the main articles # 3, 6 & 7 linked to in this post in connection with Satan's statement to Jesus (in Lu 4:6) that authority over human kingdoms had been "delivered" to him, as well as discussion of the "appointed times of the nations" referred to in both Lu 21:24 & Ac 17:26.

Rev 13:1-2 has the correct order of events: Where the beast appears first, and then the dragon gives it great authority. This corresponds with Satan telling Jesus that authority over human kingdoms was "delivered" to him, implying that some form of human kingdoms already existed before Satan began 'giving it to whomever he wished.' In Rev 13:1-2, the beast first arises, then the dragon is said to grant it "great authority." In Genesis 10, human kingdoms first start appearing, then, only after the Tower of Babel incident (Gen 11:1-9; De 32:8), does the first world power (Egypt) appear. The implication being that the Babel incident is the point in time when human kingdoms were "delivered" to Satan; God using a 'divide and conquer' method to 'deliver' them.

Bobcat


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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#23 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 week ago

Bobcat what a post! I'm literally jaw dropped :eek:

Genesis 37:9-10 and Rev 12:1 shocked me!
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#24 Post by Kerry Huish » 6 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
Is there any other vision in Revelation where John was shown a vision of something that had already happened?
Well, let's see:

Rev 4:1 (NWT) says:
After this I saw, and look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.”

So, if one were to take these words as referring to John only seeing things that were to occur future from then (mid-90s CE or thereabouts), then, everything John sees from here on in the Revelation must be something that only occurred future from then. So, let's see if that strictly 'future only' view holds up:

  • Rev 4:2-3, John sees someone seated on a throne. Is this future only? Or is this something He has always been doing? If one takes Rev 4:1 as having to mean only future from when John receives the Revelation, then, this is something God only started doing since about the mid-90s CE or afterwards.
  • Rev 4:8 has the four living creatures saying "Holy, holy, holy ..." Is this something they only do future from when John sees the vision? Or have they been doing this for a long time before this? (Isa 6:3)
  • Rev 4:9-10 "And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the one who sits on the throne ..." Only future from mid-90s CE? Or have they been doing this for a long time already?
  • Rev 5:5, 6 "Look! The Lion of the tribe Judah ... has conquered ... appeared to have been killed." Future from mid-90s CE?
  • Rev 5:9, 10 "... because you were killed and with your blood you have purchased for God persons ..." Something that happened future from mid-90s CE?
  • Rev 6:2 "... and here came a white horse! The one who rode it had a bow, and he was given a crown ..." Col 1:13 has Jesus with a kingdom, implying he already was crowned. Heb 2:9 has Jesus then presently with a crown (early 60s CE?). See also this post for other scriptural evidence that Jesus was crowned upon his return to heaven.
  • Rev 6:9 John sees the souls who had been violently killed because of the Word of God and their testimony. Only after mid-90s CE? I think Stephen would disagree. (Ac 7:58-60)
  • Rev 12:1 'A woman clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars.' As someone already mentioned, the description is drawn from OT imagery of Israel. Constable's Notes comments:
    In view of Old Testament imagery (cf. Isa 54:1-6; Jer 3:20; Ezek 16:8-14; Hos 2:19-20) and the following reasons, the “woman” seems to symbolize the nation of Israel. She wears a crown (Gr. stephanos) with the sun, moon, and stars, as God pictured Israel in one of the nation’s early symbolic representations (Gen 37:9-11; cf. Isa 26:17-18; 60:1-3, 20). There are many figurative references to Israel as a travailing woman in the Old Testament (Isa 26:17-18; 66:7-9; Jer 4:31; 13:21; Mic 4:10; 5:3). She eventually gave birth to Christ (Rev 12:5). In Genesis 37:9-10, the sun corresponds to Jacob, the moon to Rachel, and the 12 stars to Israel’s 12 sons. [End of quote]
    Mt 21:43, Gal 6:16, Jas 1:1 & 1Pe 2:9 could be used to show that the imagery of the "woman" of Rev 12:1-3 as Israel can be extended from Israel under the Law Covenant (which produced the Messiah, that is, the "child" of Rev 12:5), to also across the Christian era under the New Covenant (which produces the woman's further offspring - Rev 12:17; Gal 3:25-29).
  • Rev 12:4a "... the dragon's tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and hurled them to the earth." I take this as a reference to what happened in Gen 6:1-4. I think you take this differently if I remember correctly. (See here.)
  • Rev 12:4b ''The dragon kept standing before the woman to devour her child.' I take this as describing efforts by Satan to prevent the Messiah during all the time of the nation of Israel. All of which would be prior to mid-90s CE.
  • Rev 12:5 'The child is born and caught away to the throne of God.' Which I take as a reference to Jesus, his ministry, sacrifice, and glorification. All pre-90s CE. And for the reader, see the discussion of this above (here).
  • Rev 13:2 The dragon gave to the beast his power, his throne, and great authority to rule. This was something already claimed by Satan back in about 29 CE. (Lu 4:5-6) (And see the last two paragraphs of this post below.)
  • Rev 14:6, 7 An angel has good news to preach to the whole world, with the message to repent. Acts 17:30-31 indicates this was already going on (mid-50s CE). It continues past the 90s CE. But it started before that. (Mt 28:18-20; Ac 1:8)
  • Rev 18:24 "In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” That sounds like it covers across many centuries before mid-90s CE.

Well, that's my tally of things that had already happened, or had already started to happen, before John received the Revelation, and before he was told what was said in Rev 4:1. Although, somehow, I don't think we will end up agreeing to anything. Yet, I am glad to have these things cataloged, even if piece by piece.

Just as an aside for the reader, since Rev 13:2 and Lu 4:5-6 have been mentioned above: See the main articles # 3, 6 & 7 linked to in this post in connection with Satan's statement to Jesus (in Lu 4:6) that authority over human kingdoms had been "delivered" to him, as well as discussion of the "appointed times of the nations" referred to in both Lu 21:24 & Ac 17:26.

Rev 13:1-2 has the correct order of events: Where the beast appears first, and then the dragon gives it great authority. This corresponds with Satan telling Jesus that authority over human kingdoms was "delivered" to him, implying that some form of human kingdoms already existed before Satan began 'giving it to whomever he wished.' In Rev 13:1-2, the beast first arises, then the dragon is said to grant it "great authority." In Genesis 10, human kingdoms first start appearing, then, only after the Tower of Babel incident (Gen 11:1-9; De 32:8), does the first world power (Egypt) appear. The implication being that the Babel incident is the point in time when human kingdoms were "delivered" to Satan; God using a 'divide and conquer' method to 'deliver' them.
Bobcat
The reason I asked was because the book says of itself: -

Revelation 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

Revelation 1:19 Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.

The things that 'are' were the messages to the 7 congregations?
The things that will take place 'after' these implies everything else beyond these 7 letters.

John was not told to right down about the things that were past, things that had already occured.
Again, the purpose of the book was to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.

In view of this, it does seem strange to me that Revelation 12 could be a complete vision of something that was 'history' if we are to believe that the born child was Jesus and Satan was already evicted.

Picking out part in a vision where Jehovah is seen sitting on His throne or Jesus has been killed or blood of prophets being found in the harlot, these are not what I had in mind as being examples of a vision that is a 'complete history lesson' or of something already past, these were but necessary details given in order to establish a future happening within each presented vision.

In this sense what is being proposed of Revelation 12 stands out as being peculiar.

Just trying to further understand and investigate your position. Thank you for your time is responding.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Bobcat
Posts: 3813
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#25 Post by Bobcat » 6 days ago

these were but necessary details given in order to establish a future happening within each presented vision.
That is how I understand the first part of Revelation chapter 12. In the chiastic literary scheme I presented here, chapter 12 serves as the pivot point (the line labeled "G"). As a whole, the entirety of chapter 12 presents a general synopsis of what was predicted in Gen 3:15, leading up to, but not including, the final war and where Satan is abyssed/ & struck on the head (for which see line "D^")

(What I have been learning about chiasmus has been altering how I view some things, not just Revelation.)

I understand Rev 13 somewhat similarly, where Rev 13:1-2 is necessary historical detail, and Rev 13:3 is recent (for Christians in John's time) historical detail (the wound being the then Roman civil war of 68-69 CE, for which see this post). This (in my view) necessary historical detail prepares Christians in John's time for the issues that developed regarding the worshiping of the Caesars following the "Year of the Four Emperors."

I have come to understand many parts of Revelation (but not all) as comprising events stretched out over the Christian era (for example on the trumpets, see this post; See also the comments in this post). I notice that many others have a much more compressed view (time-wise) of their fulfillment. So this makes for much of our difference in viewpoint.

Incidentally, and as somewhat of an aside, this thread has some admittedly speculative, but related thinking regarding Satan's ouster from heaven, which in this thread I propose to have been in the first century. But I didn't bring this up because it is a personal theory.

At any rate, it is good to hash things out, even if we still don't see eye-to-eye. At least our viewpoints and reasoning for such get put on the table for others to analyze.


Bobcat

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#26 Post by Kerry Huish » 6 days ago

Bobcat wrote:
6 days ago
At any rate, it is good to hash things out, even if we still don't see eye-to-eye. At least our viewpoints and reasoning for such get put on the table for others to analyze.
Very balanced of you, thanks again for taking the time to respond.
And who knows, maybe our views may become more closer aligned as time goes by.

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

ctron
Posts: 18
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#27 Post by ctron » 6 days ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
6 days ago
Revelation 1:19 Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.

The things that 'are' were the messages to the 7 congregations?
The things that will take place 'after' these implies everything else beyond these 7 letters.

I found some interesting thoughts about this verse here:
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs ... 6_JETS.pdf

What are your thoughts?

ctron

Bobcat
Posts: 3813
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#28 Post by Bobcat » 6 days ago

Hi ctron,

Thank you for linking to that PDF. Very interesting thoughts it contains.

I also have your post cross-linked to here for reference purposes. The topic of the PDF has some possible relationship to the link on chiasmus in Revelation.

The PDF on pages 1 & 2 discuss an allusion to Daniel 2:28 LXX in four places in Revelation (Rev 1:1, 19; 4:1; 22:6, where "at the last of the days" is replaced with "soon." Here is a PDF Interlinear of the LXX. The link should open to the page that Dan 2:28 is on. (On how NT writers understood "the last days" see here.)

And just so you know, I added a couple links to the bottom of my post addressed to you above (here) regarding 1Pe 3:19.


Bobcat

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#29 Post by Kerry Huish » 5 days ago

ctron wrote:
6 days ago
Kerry Huish wrote:
6 days ago
Revelation 1:19 Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.

The things that 'are' were the messages to the 7 congregations?
The things that will take place 'after' these implies everything else beyond these 7 letters.

I found some interesting thoughts about this verse here:
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs ... 6_JETS.pdf

What are your thoughts?

ctron
Hi Ctron,

Thanks for the link.
After considering what was written there my thoughts are still the same.
That the things that 'are' were the messages given to the 7 congregations and that the things that will take place 'after' these, implies everything else beyond these 7 letters.
I firmly believe that the book of Revelation is prophetic and not historic, from John's perspective.
Even the messages given to the 7 congregations are timeless in their counsel and transcend the literal congregations of the first century into messages to 7 spiritual congregations, symbolic of the conditions that the 'Stars' in Jesus right hand find themselves in, leading right up to the end.

However, regarding the part where it said: -
.
Untitled.png
Untitled.png (34.09 KiB) Viewed 65 times
.
I do 'kind' of agree with this, that there could be multiple 'valid' interpretations of the book for the reader.
The reason for 'kind' of agreeing with this statement is due to what that book of Revelation says of itself: -

Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Jesus 'true' servants have been scattered through time and have vastly varying circumstances.
So it all depends on the servant, where they are in the stream of time, the current understanding that they have acquired, this will influence what it is that they are able to see or glean from the book. If you truly are a servant of Christ, then the book is used to guide the 'servant' to some extent regardless of if you lived in the first century or this and regardless of circumstance.

However, although there may well be multiple 'valid' minor interpretations or fulfilments for each servant, I also believe that ultimately there is just one major fulfilment to all that was written, culminating in the end of the system of things. Any 'valid' minor interpretation would be but a shadow of a greater reality.

In this way, and dependent on the servant, 'your mileage will vary' in a very real sense when looking into the book of Revelation.
One day you might understand Revelation 12 to be talking about the birth of Christ and sincerely believe that Satan was cast down to the earth in the first century.
After time, you might understand something completely different from it and come to realize that you were initially just seeing/chasing a 'shadow' or 'pattern' of something else.
Or vice versa...

It depends on the 'servant' and the stage they are at as to how clearly they will see, some will only ever see shadows.

Revelation 22:10, 11 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
Posts: 2234
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: When Is Satan Cast Down To Earth?

#30 Post by Stranger » 5 days ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
5 days ago
However, although there may well be multiple 'valid' minor interpretations or fulfilments for each servant, I also believe that ultimately there is just one major fulfilment to all that was written, culminating in the end of the system of things. Any 'valid' minor interpretation would be but a shadow of a greater reality.

In this way, and dependent on the servant, 'your mileage will vary' in a very real sense when looking into the book of Revelation.

Hi Kerry H,

"It's true if you're an aggressive driver, you'll use more fuel than you need to. And while it sounds super cool to (Rev) your engine you're wasting gas going nowhere."


Stranger, (Pr 26:21 KJV)

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