Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

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Bobcat
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#61 Post by Bobcat » 4 years ago

a comparison of Mt 24:29 with Luke 21:25-26 - Oops, couldn't find that one yet.
Here and the two following posts provide a little more on subtle differences between Matthew and Luke.

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#62 Post by Bobcat » 4 years ago

Back to the subject of this thread . . .

Here is a post I made which (in part) addressed the subject of the "Gentile Times" ending in 1914.

Bobcat

John S
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#63 Post by John S » 4 years ago

After all things seem to have settled like coffee grounds in my coffee pot.....

It is so easy to me, to see Daniel is the prophetic book for identifying the times and seasons of the re-installment of God's Messianic Kingdom. Notice Nebuchadnezzar was chosen to be the tool God uses to show the Kingdom would come not in 33 c.e. but in the future , in our day. We need only to look at not Daniel 4 this time, but to the first vision Nebuchadnezzar had: the immense image.

Daniel 2

7 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:

29 “As Your Majesty was lying there, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than anyone else alive, but so that Your Majesty may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.

31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Here, yet again, it is clearly shown;

1. The conquerer of the Judaic, Davidic Kingdom(Nebuchadnezzar) was used to show God sets up whom he wants to rule, and his kingdom would be restored at HIS own time and season. This, although others here will repeat time after time, that" King Neb would never portray anything to do with God's Kingdom!" see also Ezek. 21:25-27


2. God's Kingdom would come NOT in the time Jesus came to earth, but at the time the kingdom whose feet were composed of clay and iron would be crushed. This harmonizes with all the Revelation too. The dual power down at the time of the end; certainly not Jesus' day of 33, as no crushing of the Roman empire occurred then.


What has been stated on all the forum here about the time of the end being in Jesus day, for the WORLD...has no relation to me to Jesus' day, but as daniel and Revelation say: the 'time of the end'.

Sorry, I see no weight to any other arguments presented.

Bobcat
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#64 Post by Bobcat » 4 years ago

Hey John!

My opinion is, If that is what powers your faith, then, more power to you. (We used to call this the "Empty" principle in the army.) Being faithful to God and Christ is more important than a date that will eventually work itself out. Additionally, both 33 CE and 1914 CE are in the past so that, believers in both dates hold the same truth that God has already "set up" His Kingdom under Christ.

Having said that, here is where I see the flaw in your argument with Daniel 2. And I should stress that it is not "your" argument since many others hold to the view you presented concerning Daniel 2:

To me, the view you presented represents an un-careful reading of Daniel 2. Here is what I mean.

In the explanation of the vision Daniel says:
(Daniel 2:38-40 NWT) . . .you yourself [i.e. Nebuchadnezzar, representative of Babylon] are the head of gold. 39 “But after you another kingdom will rise, inferior to you; then another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth. 40 “As for the fourth kingdom, it will be strong like iron. . . .
Then Daniel continues about what comes next in the dream:
(Daniel 2:41-43 NWT) . . .And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay.
In connection with the silver (Persia), the copper (Greece) and the iron (Rome) Daniel says, "another kingdom will rise . . . then another kingdom, a third one . . . as for the fourth kingdom, it will be strong like iron . . ."

But in connection with the feet and toes, Daniel says, "And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided." There is no mention in this vision of another kingdom 'rising.' In fact, the feet and toes being "partly of iron" suggests that the situation described with the feet and toes is somehow related to the kingdom of iron.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that there isn't a seventh head to the wild beast that is later referred to in Rev 13. What I'm saying is that the dream in Daniel 2 does not describe the rise of a fifth kingdom. You are assuming that the 'feet and toes' is referring to another kingdom.

But suppose, for a minute, that the 'feet and toes' does refer to a fifth kingdom, and that Daniel was saying that God "sets up" His kingdom during that time. Shouldn't the explanation say, "In the days of that king . . ., rather than, "In the days of those kings . . .?

By saying, "In the days of those kings . . ." and staying within the context of what is actually said by Daniel in chapter two, "those kings" would refer to all the kingdoms that Daniel said would rise up after Nebuchadnezzar. In effect, Daniel is telling Nebuchadnezzar that God will "set up" His kingdom in the days after Babylon, during the time of "those kings" that rise up afterwards.

For an additional thought on this, see Jerome's post here, and especially where he quotes from Albert Barnes.

On a side note, this may be why (or one of the reasons why) the Jews were in expectation of the Messiah in John the Baptists' time. (Lu 3:15). If they understood the gentile powers to follow the order of Persia, Greece and then Rome - and I am not sure how the Jews understood Daniel 2 then - but with the arrival of a kingdom after Greece (which turned out to be Rome), the Jews might have seen time running out for the Messiah, whom they associated with the 'setting up' of God's Kingdom.

Even so the difference of opinion, John, I end this by saying, Peace to you, and may your faith be strong.

[The argument in this post is continued in post # 68 below (here).]

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#65 Post by Bobcat » 4 years ago

John, I was waiting to see if you noticed that I did not fully disagree with you in my last post about 1914. . .

Bobcat

John S
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#66 Post by John S » 4 years ago

Yes, Peace

As has been agreed by all, this issue:1914 end of Gentile times...is not a life or death issue.

Faith in the coming of the Son of man is what all Christians hold as one.

In that faith, and forgiveness of sins and life eternal, are what makes us all brothers and sisters.

John S
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#67 Post by John S » 4 years ago

Hey BC,

"Now THAT being said" ;)

The scripture says after the Kingdom is set up it destroys ALL these kingdoms. So not much time ...like 2000 years...is implied here, but surely a short period. This is most likely not a generation, though , like with Jerusalem. I think 150-200 years maybe, even, as many things are foretold between Revelation 6 through to 18 and 19...many.

Bobcat
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#68 Post by Bobcat » 4 years ago

[This post continues the argument from post # 64 above (here).]

So not much time ...like 2000 years...is implied here, but surely a short period.
This morning in your 'coffee pot' post you used only Daniel 2 to try to show 1914 as the time for the kingdom being set up. So my comments only reflected what Daniel 2 says.

The point I was making was that the only definite thing one could get from Daniel 2 about when God 'sets up' His kingdom was that it would be after the Babylonians ("in the days of those kings"), which, to Nebuchadnezzar would mean, not in his time or in the time of Babylon. So, just going by that and from Nebuchadnezzar's viewpoint, 1914 would be one possible future date. So would 33 or any other date, so long as it was future from the Babylonian empire.

As for the two statements about (1) 'God setting up his kingdom' and (2) the 'crushing of the other kingdoms,' I don't see anything in Daniel 2 that would imply a short time or a long time. All I see is two statements of fact: (1) God would set up his kingdom "in the days of those kings," and, (2) it would, at some point in time afterwards, crush and put an end to "all these kingdoms." (Dan 2:44)

(It should be noted that, in Daniel chapter 2, nowhere does it refer to the "toes" as kings. That there are ten "toes" is an assumption, albeit, a realistic one. Also, if they relate to the 10 horns in Daniel 7, then, it would also argue that the 4 beasts of Dan 7 are the same as the 4 metallic kingdoms of Dan 2.)

To me, you would have to go elsewhere in the Bible to establish how much time elapses between those two events.

But like you said, it is, to some extent, an academic problem.


Take care, John
Bobcat

DeborahsTree
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#69 Post by DeborahsTree » 4 years ago

The European Union is a fragile mix of nations who were once a part of the Roman Empire...the legs of iron. The middle east is also today a very fragile mix of nations several of which were also a part of the Roman Empire. Ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece and Egypt still live!

Daniel's prophecies are current and valid.

AmosAU
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Re: Why I still believe in the 7 times of the Gentiles

#70 Post by AmosAU » 4 years ago

DeborahsTree wrote:
4 years ago
The European Union is a fragile mix of nations who were once a part of the Roman Empire...the legs of iron. The middle east is also today a very fragile mix of nations several of which were also a part of the Roman Empire. Ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece and Egypt still live!

Daniel's prophecies are current and valid.
You've got a big AMEN from me, sister Deborah.

It's all part of unfolding prophecy that will continue until our Lord & Saviour returns & destroys the nations in opposition to YHWH.

Regards, Amos.

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