Why is SATAN still around

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#61 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Orchid61 wrote:
2 months ago
Hi CI,

We can read and learn from the Book of Job, and understand.

We have our King Jesus, and learn from Him. He never blamed his Father, for he knew what his suffering would accomplish.

Our own suffering will as fruit have endurance and in the end peace.

Love Maria 🌷
Hi Maria,

Yes, indeed, Jesus was outstanding. He understood his role and played it faultlessly. Whereas Job, like humankind, had yet to learn how to deal with adversity and still remain loyal to God. He simply could not understand and came to the wrong conclusion until the youngest of his companions spoke up, (Jb 32:6). After which Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of a great tempest/whirlwind, (Jb38:1, as at Jer 25:32; cf. Rev 6:13). He asked: "Who is he that is obscuring counsel by words without knowledge...

Like all of us, Job hadn't thought it through properly. Overwhelmed with grief, he had blamed Jehovah for his predicament. After Jehovah had explained, Job realized he had spoken without knowledge and understanding things too wonderful for him to know. And he made a retraction and repented in dust and ashes, (Jb 42:3-6). The same as the two witnesses do when they prophesy for a short time before they are called up to heaven, (Rev 11:3,12).

In this way, the story of Job serves as an analogy. It explains the human condition and the eventual outcome.

Love
LRW~

Orchid61
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#62 Post by Orchid61 » 2 months ago

Hi CI,

Job: How a man loses everything he has and yet remains faithful to God.

Job 2:9–10 (ESV): 9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

I love Job, how he answers his wife!

Love Maria 🌷

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Bruno
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#63 Post by Bruno » 2 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 months ago


Sadday does not mean almighty.


So from where does the notion of an almighty god come from. Its source is human. Like Job, not understanding, we look for someone to blame when things don't go our way. 'Almighty God,' first appeared in the LXX in the third century BCE.

Image
Coccus do you believe God isn't almighty or limitless in power?
Karl

Bobcat
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#64 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Bruno,

The etymology of of the Hebrew term Shadday (Strong's # 7706) is a bit more involved than what CI has written about. The Insight volume, under the term "Almighty," gives a brief summation of the term:
The Hebrew Term. In the Hebrew text Shad·daiʹ is used seven times along with ʼEl (God), forming the title “God Almighty.” (Ge 17:1; 28:3; 35:11; 43:14; 48:3; Ex 6:3; Eze 10:5) In the other 41 occurrences it stands alone and is translated “the Almighty” or “the Almighty One.” Similar to ʼAdho·naiʹ (Sovereign Lord) and ʼElo·himʹ (God), Shad·daiʹ is in the plural to denote excellence.​—Ge 49:25; Nu 24:4; Ps 68:14.

The exact derivation of the word Shad·daiʹ is a matter of discussion. The translators of the Septuagint used several Greek words in translating it, but in the book of Job they did employ the word Pan·to·kraʹtor (All Powerful) 16 times for Shad·daiʹ. In a few cases they rendered it by a Greek term (hi·ka·nosʹ) meaning “sufficient” or “fit” (Ru 1:20, 21; Job 21:15; 31:2; 40:2), and later Greek translators such as Aquila and Symmachus followed this interpretation, thereby presenting Shad·daiʹ as the “Sufficient (Fit) One.”

The NT uses pantokratór at: 2Co 6:18; Rev 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7, 14; 19:6, 15; 21:22.

The Insight also says:
The view of some modern critics is expressed in the comment on Genesis 17:1 in the Catholic translation known as The Jerusalem Bible (ftn b), which states: “The usual translation ‘Almighty God’ is inaccurate; ‘Mou[n]tain God’ is the probable meaning.” Such extreme view, however, is based on an imagined linkage of Shad·daiʹ with the Akkadian term shadu (mountain). Unger’s Bible Dictionary (1965, p. 1000) comments: “This view, however, is unacceptable and Shaddai is best taken from the root shadad [sha·dhadhʹ], ‘to be strong or powerful,’ as in Arabic.”​—See also The Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, by Benjamin Davidson, p. 702. [For which see here, the entry about halfway down the left column - Bobcat]

Sha·dhadhʹ in the Bible text commonly implies violent power, as used in despoiling. (Compare Ps 17:9; Pr 11:3.) Isaiah 13:6 states: “Howl, you people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling [keshodhʹ] from the Almighty [mish·Shad·daiʹ] it will come.” While the idea of violent action is basic in the Biblical use of this root word, some scholars suggest that its original sense or primary meaning was simply “be strong” or “act strongly.” The Jewish Encyclopedia (1976, Vol. IX, p. 162) states: “It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of ‘overmastering’ or ‘overpowering strength,’ and that this meaning persists in the divine [title].”

From what I've seen in other references, the information above is good (and was easy enough to copy), although, I find the WT's use of slanted language to be deplorable. Those who disagree with WT are labeled as "critics" and they have "extreme" views. This is why I have come to take anything the WT says with a grain of salt. If they were just satisfied to state their case and leave it at that. But no, they have to take shots at anyone who has a different view. WT writers (and their leaders) are just some of the sorriest, religious lowlifes.

But I digress. . .

I have no problem with "almighty" as a translation of shadday. Too many translations use it or something similar, such as "all powerful." I, rather, have a problem with anyone claiming that 'everyone else has been misled for centuries.' But, of course, they themselves have somehow not been misled. Anyone making this sort of argument raises red flags right away in my mind. (Compare Mt 24:24, 26) This is typically the kind of argumentation one finds regularly on the Internet. In any other format, such an argument would be laughed out of the building.

And I might add, the ones making these types of arguments don't appreciate how destructive their arguments are to other people's faith.


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#65 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Bruno wrote:
2 months ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
2 months ago


Sadday does not mean almighty.


So from where does the notion of an almighty god come from. Its source is human. Like Job, not understanding, we look for someone to blame when things don't go our way. 'Almighty God,' first appeared in the LXX in the third century BCE.

Image
Coccus do you believe God isn't almighty or limitless in power?
Hi Bruno

We simply do not know what God is capable of or isn't. All we have is what is written and what we see around us. All the religious narratives and scientific theories that go beyond that are either conjectures and speculations or deliberate falsification. We know that YHWH/Jehovah means 'He comes to be.' And so the literal rendering of Jehovah God is He-comes-to-be God. And the word God/el singular in the Bible refers to a sentient being that controls whether another sentient lives or dies. That is why human judges are called gods at Ps 82:6. One can speculate, but when speculation replaces what is written and believed, we fall into the trap that Job fell into, blaming God for his predicament.

Here is a bit of speculation of my own. If the account of Job is an analogy, then the explanation of Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphas represent the religious narratives of the three monotheistic religions, namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. With Elihu representing the eleventh-hour workers or grains making up the two ears of wheat, the two witnesses, see posts 368 here. It helps to re-read what Elihu says, from Jb 32:1 to Jb 37:24, and then re-read what Jehovah says, Jb 38:1 to Jb 41:34. Are these not the same questions occupying Bible forums and the physical sciences now? After Job hears what Jehovah says, he realizes he knows nothing.

Getting back to the notion of an almighty God. The notion that proposes that a single entity is omnipotent and controls everything. That may well be the case but it is not Jehovah.

And it came about to be the day when the sons of the true God presented themselves before Jehovah. This rendering supports the notion of Jehovah being the almighty God. In reality, if one checks the parsing, the blue acronym under each word, it says... And there was a day when the sons of Gods presented themselves about Jehovah and the adversary came into their midst... See Heb. interlinear Jb 1:6. The preposition rendered before is על and means about 'el - על. The rendering of this verse we have today in our Bibles comes from the LXX Ps 1:6, and was reinforced in the 5th century Latin translation, see Job 1:6 Latin Vulgate

Keeping in mind that YHWH/Jehovah God means He comes to be God. The issue before this heavenly assembly of Gods becomes clear. It concerns humankind paying homage to Jehovah, which occurs when God's name, Jehovah, is sanctified among them and his will is done on earth as it is in heaven. At that time He-comes-to-be-God, (Mt 6:9,10).

The 82nd Psalm is about human gods who have the power of life and death over other humans. Check the interlinear and the parsing under each word, Ps 82:1. Jesus referred to this Psalm when his detractors were about to stone him (Jhn 10:24-36). Even though the LXX worded it differently, see LXX Psalm 82, to support the notion of Jehovah being almighty, the Judeans Jesus addressed would have been familiar with the Hebrew words of this song and understood his reasoning perfectly.

The judicial assembly of this heavenly court is described in Daniel's vision thus ...And I kept on beholding until there were thrones place and the ancient of days sat down... He then describes this ancient of days ...a thousand thousands thousands are ministering to him and ten thousand ten thousands ten thousands stand before him, (Dan 7:9,10). The court/judgment was seated and books were opened. From this, one gets the impression that this ancient of days presides over a body of Judges who judge according to what is written in books containing evidence (cf. Rev 20:4,11,12).

This ancient of Days, maybe the Rock Moses refers to at De 32:4 ...The Rock perfect is his activity. For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice... The rock may be the moral compass of the universe that regulates the inviolable law of cause and effect, the measure for measure principle the Jesus spoke of at Mt 5:38; 7:1-5. But this is only conjecture about what is written. That is all that is known with any certainty at present, but I am surely looking forward to learning more.
LRW~

Orchid61
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#66 Post by Orchid61 » 2 months ago


Ezekiel 14:14 (NKJV): 14 Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” says the Lord GOD.

James 5:11 (ESV): 11 Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
Love Maria 🌷

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Bruno
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#67 Post by Bruno » 2 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
2 months ago


Hi Bruno

We simply do not know what God is capable of or isn't...
Getting back to the notion of an almighty God. The notion that proposes that a single entity is omnipotent and controls everything. That may well be the case but it is not Jehovah.

The claim that God is almighty and limitless in power is an important one. Even non christians acknowledge this. So either the bible writers knew what they were talking about or they just got lucky. As soon as you place limits upon God, you have to be able to explain why God is constrained by these limits. It also would mean that there are certain things which are greater than God. Things which exist independent of God, which he relies Upon. It is a very slippery path to go down. A path which leads to an explanation for why everything exists, including God.
Karl

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#68 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 months ago
Hi Bruno,

The etymology of of the Hebrew term Shadday (Strong's # 7706) is a bit more involved than what CI has written about. The Insight volume, under the term "Almighty," gives a brief summation of the term:

The NT uses pantokratór at: 2Co 6:18; Rev 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7, 14; 19:6, 15; 21:22.

The Insight also says:

Sha·dhadhʹ in the Bible text commonly implies violent power, as used in despoiling. (Compare Ps 17:9; Pr 11:3.) Isaiah 13:6 states: “Howl, you people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling [keshodhʹ] from the Almighty [mish·Shad·daiʹ] it will come.” While the idea of violent action is basic in the Biblical use of this root word, some scholars suggest that its original sense or primary meaning was simply “be strong” or “act strongly.” The Jewish Encyclopedia (1976, Vol. IX, p. 162) states: “It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of ‘overmastering’ or ‘overpowering strength,’ and that this meaning persists in the divine [title].”

I have no problem with "almighty" as a translation of shadday. Too many translations use it or something similar, such as "all powerful." I, rather, have a problem with anyone claiming that 'everyone else has been misled for centuries.' But, of course, they themselves have somehow not been misled. Anyone making this sort of argument raises red flags right away in my mind. (Compare Mt 24:24, 26) This is typically the kind of argumentation one finds regularly on the Internet. In any other format, such an argument would be laughed out of the building.

And I might add, the ones making these types of arguments don't appreciate how destructive their arguments are to other people's faith.
Bobcat
Hello Bobcat,

Sorry to butt in, but I think your comments to Bruno above concern me.
You say:
The etymology of the Hebrew term Shadday (Strong's # 7706) is a bit more involved than what CI has written about.
Indeed it is but I was keeping it simple. And to keep it simple the word for field/s sadeh 7704 occurs 333 times in the Hebrew text, see the right-hand column here, 7704. sadeh field. If you scroll down the left-hand column to NAS word origin you will find it is the same as 7706 saday. Check out the link to make sure. And if you scroll further down the left-hand column to Strong’s Concordance, it says: Or saday {saw-dah'-ee}; from an unused root meaning to spread out; a field (as flat) -- country, field, ground, land, soil, X wild.

So there is nothing convoluted about the meaning of sadeh/shaday/saday (the 's' is transliterated as 'sh' in English). It's quite straightforward and simple.

So why go to such length to cover over the simple fact that sadeh/saday means field and replace it with Almighty? Even the Greek word pankrator does not mean almighty. Jesus did not use it, and where it occurs in Revelation it has been used to imply that Jesus is part of an almighty trinity godhead. The Greek word pantokratór is made up of two words, pan 3956. pas all, every and 2902 krateó verb to be strong, rule

So why say, I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty? The answer to that is also straight forward and not convoluted at all. This is how it has been rendered in the Latin Vulgate, see Ex 6:3, 4, below Image

It is a straightforward falsification of the Hebrew text, to buttress the power of the Roman church as the intercessors for Christ on earth. And it has remained in the bible to do the same job for other churches founded on a similar hierarchical structure. If that is what you mean when you say:
This is typically the kind of argumentation one finds regularly on the Internet. In any other format, such an argument would be laughed out of the building
And I might add, the ones making these types of arguments don't appreciate how destructive their arguments are to other people's faith.
Then laugh as hard as you can while you are still able. I for one am more interested in reading and understanding what God said, and not the words put in his mouth by others to enhance their own power. Jehovah God told Moses ...I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God saday but respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known.

I don't think falsification of God's words is a laughing matter at any time. Do you? And I give credit to those who love truth and heed Jesus's sayings as coming from the Father, (Jhn 12:48,49), that far from destroying their faith, it will strengthen it.
LRW~

Marina
Posts: 2507
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Why is SATAN still around

#69 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

I don't know why Satan is still around but he is still around. And it is sick stuff.

Satanic Temple Says ‘Satanic Abortions Are Protected By Religious Liberty Laws,’ Texas Abortion Laws ‘Violate Our Religious Rights’

Maybe it is to prove once and for all how tough justice is sometimes demanded because without it millions of helpless innocent people suffer and die.

(Revelation 14:9-11) . . .And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. . .
Marina

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