Why is SATAN still around

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Bobcat
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#11 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

I can agree with all but that last paragraph Sol. We differ on that last paragraph. But the rest makes good sense (and a good point to remember) to me. The demons haven't simply got away scot free. They have suffered loss (and humiliation) to some extent, even before their future casting into the abyss, and then later to be destroyed. (Compare Gen 3:14; On Satan's freedom being limited, and his being used/herded by God during the pre-flood era, see this post)


Bobcat

Get out of her
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#12 Post by Get out of her » 2 months ago

I appreciated your encouraging comments Bobcat. Just wondering if you might be a bit more specific about what you disagree with in connection with the last paragraph. I have no interest whatsoever in getting into an argument over anything, but since I recognize the information as among even the most important things the anointed "virgins" need to understand in the prophetic time frames we once again find ourselves in, I would indeed be interested in at least attempting or endeavoring to scripturally demonstrate these points in a manner in which at least some of my dear brothers and sisters might actually grasp if it be Jehovah's will. (Mt 16:17) (Ac 16:14)

For example, the scriptural points I just made in this recent post are among ones that I have already posted over the last several years on more than one occasion. However in THIS case you were able to appreciate at least the majority of them. Perhaps it was simply due to a somewhat different way of expressing them. No way of really knowing unless we are able to constructively and respectfully "discussthetruth."

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#13 Post by Bobcat » 2 months ago

Hi Sol,

First off, if I remember correctly, you are from the Oregon area. If so, I hope you are doing well with all the fires and smoke.

With that said, the quote below is the main problem I see. Everything else in that paragraph is tied to this statement. So there is no need for me to get into any of that.

If I have understood other posts of yours, you understand the 2520 years to begin in 609 BCE and end in 1912 BCE (as opposed to the WT's 607 BCE - 1914 CE).

(For the reader, 609 BCE is the generally accepted year of King Josiah's death [except for the WT - 629 BCE for them] and the general dominance of Babylon over Assyria and the Levant. Egyptian opposition to Babylon, and the final remnants of the Assyrian Empire, ended in 605 BCE at the battle of Carchemish. But Babylonian dominance of the Levant was established by 609 BCE. And thus, the 70 years of Jer 25:11-12; 29:10 would have run from 609 BCE to 539 BCE. For a discussion of the 70 years, see this post.)

You said:
In the foretold 2,520 year period of the "appointed times of the nations" ...

Here is what I have to say about my disagreement:
1. See this post (and included links) under the sub-title, Difficulties With the WT Interpretation.

2. See this post regarding the idea of applying "a day for a year" to the "seven times" of Dan 4:16, 23, 25.


You also said:
For example, the scriptural points I just made in this recent post are among ones that I have already posted over the last several years on more than one occasion. However in THIS case you were able to appreciate at least the majority of them.

I wouldn't hold your breath, Sol, about any of this. To me, much of what you post is convoluted nonsense, which you insist is scriptural, but I don't think there are many who will agree with you about that. Sometimes I have looked at your posts and have wondered if you might be laughing in the background as you wait to see how gullible people might be. That's how some of your posts came across to me. But, over time I have come to the conclusion that you hold to your ideas seriously.

At various times some (including myself) have asked you to simplify and outline your posts in an attempt to try to understand what you are trying to get across. But every time you resist doing that. I take that as a sub-conscious indication that, deep down, some part of you knows that your ideas would fall apart if they had to be explained logically and/or systematically. This is why the term gish gallop has come to my mind in connection with your posts. It seems like you try to pile all manner of ideas together, with constant requalifying statements so as to prevent any systematic analysis of them.

You also constantly assure your readers that what you are saying is found clearly in the Bible. But if that were so, you wouldn't need to remind people of that. You could let your arguments stand on their own. And those familiar with the Bible would begin to see the logic of your statements on their own. This constant assurance that you are right starts to look like evidence that you are not right, and that you can't just leave your points out there to prove themselves. This is how your writing style comes across to me.

This is an open forum. And there have been some good discussions here. That's why you are able to post here. But I have also seen how open discussion forums attract strange ideas and strange people. To be honest, that is how I perceive you, based upon what you have posted these last few years. For the most part, I mostly only respond to your posts so that visitors to this site will know that your view of things (which is your right to have, to be sure), but so that visitors will know that what you post isn't the collective view of this forum.

So, I don't know, you might want to just ignore my posts. Many times they are not really directed towards you. I think both of us are already set in our views.


Bobcat

Get out of her
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#14 Post by Get out of her » 2 months ago

First of all thank you Bobcat for answering my question. Also I appreciated your concern on the issue of the rather large fire we are experiencing here in Oregon. The one in question is actually a reasonably safe distance east of me and fortunately the wind currents are at least generally in my favor. Most of the smoke has been moving away from me instead of towards me and hopefully that remains the case. Now to the topic at hand:

You kindly furnished links to two different posts in your efforts to refute one or more of my statements in post #10 on this topic. I will address them as briefly as I can.
2. Problems With the WT Interpretation of Daniel 4


Introduction

One thing I think we will all agree with concerning the vision that King Nebuchadnezzar received in Daniel chapter 4, is this: Daniel made the application of the vision to King Nebuchadnezzar himself. So there is no argument there.

The question beyond that is, Is there some further application of the vision to something or someone else?

For the sake of ease of reference I will reproduce the vision as it was received by Nebuchadnezzar here:
10 “‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. 12 Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself.

13 “‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of the heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth. 16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.” (Daniel 4:10-17 NWT Rbi8)
As you correctly point out Daniel most certainly did make application of this vision to King Nebuchadnezzar himself. However did he not also prophesy in connection with SUBSEQUENT foreign world powers that would experience this very same Levant or rising followed by a "chopping down" or fall in connection with somehow having a "heart of a man" exchanged for that of a "beast"? (Da 2:36-45) (Da 7:2-8) With that in mind, are we to recognize it as merely a coincidence that Jesus himself directly equated the arrival of the "two witnesses" of the first century with the "ax lying at the root of the trees" of the "FOURTH wild beast" that Daniel had spoken of in Chapter 7 of his account? (Mt 3:10) (Lu 3:9) (Da 7:7) (Re 11:3) Moreover did not our leader himself also speak in terms of even FUTURE times from that period in which Jerusalem would continue to experience foreign "captivity" as well as even a "trampling on" by these same foreign kings or world powers? (Lu 21:24)

Roughly six and a half decades later after announcing yet another spiritual "fall" of an "anointed" foreign "shepherd" of God's people, we find the Apostle John not only foretelling even FUTURE Levants and subsequent "chopping downs" of these same foreign world powers, but even SPECIFICALLY with regard to this same "trampling of the holy city by the nations" that Jesus spoke of in connection with this foretold period he identified in Luke as the "appointed times of the nations." (1 Joh 2:18) (Re 11:1, 2) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) In these same writings the prophet John helps us to understand that these foretold seven risings and fallings of "tree"-like foreign shepherds in this "appointed" period of "captivity" and "exile" would ultimately involve "SEVEN kings," with an "eighth" that would rise and fall AFTER this foretold period of "trampling on Jerusalem by the nations." (Re 17:10, 11) However things get even much worse for the positions you seem to so adamantly advocate for on this topic when we actually choose to obediently focus our attention on the Holy Scriptures as opposed to things like the teachings of the Watchtower organization. (1 Cor 10:20, 21) (Isa 28:8) (2 Cor 6:17) (Mt 24:15, 16)

Bobcat wrote:
The problem I see in all this is that the "day for a year" idea (Num 14:34; Ezek 4:5-6; and see here) is never applied in the Bible to the prophecies that speak of "time, times and half a time" (of Dan 12:7 & Rev 12:6, 14, 13:5) or to the "seven times" (of Dan 4), or to the 2300 evenings and mornings (of Dan 8:13-14), or to the 1290 & 1335 days (of Dan 12:11-12). (It is applied to the 390 & 40 days of Ezek chapter 4, for which see further down.)
You see not only did Jesus himself directly associate the arrival of himself and John the Baptist ("two witnesses") with yet another impending destruction or "chopping down" of a now "beast"-like foreign shepherd of what WERE God's people, but the reason that even the wicked scribes and Pharisees were expecting this appearance in the first place was because of YET ANOTHER "70 years" prophecy which in THIS case Daniel had EXPLICITLY calculated with the "DAY FOR A YEAR" formula that had already been laid out in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5, 6). (Da 9:1, 2, 24-27) This information alone directly refutes and completely invalidates SEVERAL of your rather bold statements including the ones you make in the above paragraph. This is not to mention the fact that even among the accounts you cite to support your position we find these foretold "times" or "gentile times" being expressed also in terms not only of months" but also as "DAYS." (Re 12:6:14) Compare (Re 11:2) But I'm afraid things only get even much worse for your stated views on this topic.


Bobcat wrote:
1. The 607 BCE starting date (for the end of Zedekiah's reign and the destruction of Jerusalem) is conclusively wrong. No historian accepts that date. Carl Olaf Jonsson, in his book, Gentile Times Reconsidered, has amassed some of the vast amount of evidence that has established 587 BCE as the date for the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon. (See his book in PDF format here.) The Bible puts that date in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. (2Ki 25:8, 9) And again, there is a vast amount of evidence that establishes that date as 587 BCE. Or, one can merely start at the WT's accepted year for the fall of Babylon, 539 BCE, and count backwards the lengths of the Babylonian kings until the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar is reached (for which, see this post). But the WT simply refuses to accept that. And any JW that openly refuses to hold to the WT's 607 BCE dating is subject to excommunication and being shunned as an "apostate." (Compare Jn 9:22; See post # 209 for a link to a post discussing the 70 years in both Jeremiah and Zechariah.)
Yes it is indeed wrong just like a SHOCKINGLY large portion of the Watchtower teachings. However the fact is that there is absolutely no reason for ANYONE to present speculations or opinions on EITHER the starting point of this foretold period of foreign "captivity and "exile" OR its termination. BOTH of these things are even PRECISELY identified for us in the scriptures and in a NUMBER of different ways.

As I have pointed out before the prophet Jeremiah pinpointed the start of this foreign "captivity and exile" as beginning with the reign of King Jehoiakim. (Jer 1:3) The vast majority of historians would point to sometime in the year 609 BCE in connection with this. However this year is easily confirmed by utilizing even the MOST BASIC LOGIC. (Ro 12:1) If we simply count backwards 70 years from the time every historian agrees the initial 70 year period of this exile would have ended, (namely 539 BCE), we end up at this very same year. AMONG the things this information should help us to appreciate is exactly what is stated for us in accounts like Galatians 4:24-26. What exactly is this?

An OVERTHROW of Jerusalem amounts to a conquering of what is REPRESENTS or SIGNIFIES! This is namely its very DEFINITION (foundation of two-fold peace) or otherwise exactly what Paul identifies here as the holy "COVENANT." What is also described throughout the scriptures as a "KINGDOM covenant" or even a MARRIAGE covenant between Jehovah and repentant ones among the anointed is MOST DEFINITELY overthrown when unfaithfulness on the part of Jehovah's "anointed shepherds" reaches the point of them even forming NEW alliances with things like ancient EGYPT! This is PRECISELY what Jehoiakim did in connection with Pharaoh Necho and in this very same time frame! (2 Ki 23:34, 35) This act of spiritual "prostitution" or adultery now constituted what WAS Israel or what WAS the "faithful town" into what is always now identified as a "great HARLOT." (Isa 1:21) (Re 17:1 18:2) It was THIS VERY THING that experienced NOT an overthrow in 587 BCE, but rather what "the Great Harlot" ALWAYS experiences soon after spiritually adulterous relations gives birth to a "DAUGHTER of Jehovah's people." (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) What exactly does she experience?

This is namely an outright DESTRUCTION which by contrast NEVER occurs in connection with JEHOVAH'S people or what is ACTUALLY Jerusalem and Israel. By the time the earth was dealing with the year 587 BCE, these things in stark contrast were already experiencing Jehovah's loving protection and care with divinely appointed shepherds such as the prophet Daniel and his Hebrew companions along with a foreign world power whose king FOR THE TIME BEING at least was humbly exhibiting the "heart of a MAN" as opposed to that of a "beast." (Da 2:46-49 7:4) Compare (Eze 11:19) This same sequence of events of risings and subsequent "falls" of foreign word powers playing host to Jehovah's covenant people would occur for the SECOND of the foretold "seven times" with the MEDO-PERSIAN world power. (Isa 44:28:45:1) However now that we understand there would prove to be a total of "SEVEN kings" connected with this foretold "appointed times of the nations," we suddenly find ourselves in a position to recognize YET ANOTHER very simple way of IN THIS CASE pinpointing the CONCLUSION of these "gentile times." (Re 17:10, 11)

Yes this time period was NOT merely pointed to prophetically with the 2,520 year period indicated by comparing accounts like Revelation 12:6, 14 with ones like Daniel 4:23 and Ezekiel 4:6. Since a kind of "EIGHTH king" was formally announced to the world in 1920 (initially identified as the "League of nations") and the Anglo American world power was already experiencing a decline by that year, we are already considering a rather solid confirmation of this foretold 2,520 year time span. But there is MORE! A "tribulation" like no other the earth had ever experienced had begun right in the midst of this very same time frame, namely the one that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:21, and 22, or for that matter also the Apostle John in Revelation 12:12. Are we really to imagine it was merely a coincidence that this was prophetically pictured as occurring immediately after the announcing of the "SEVENTH trumpet blast" or what the Apostle Paul had already identified as the "LAST trumpet." (Re 11:15) (1 Cor 15:51-53)

Once again I am earnestly endeavoring to keep this post very brief and concise. But based on this scriptural information ALONE I would strongly encourage you Bobcat to prayerfully reconsider exactly what it is that you would choose to recognize as genuinely scriptural in connection with this topic as opposed to what you might on the other hand regard as "gish gallop" or even "convoluted nonsense."

Agape love;
Sol

Kerry Huish
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#15 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 months ago

Get out of her wrote:
2 months ago

Yes this time period was NOT merely pointed to prophetically with the 2,520 year period indicated by comparing accounts like Revelation 12:6, 14 with ones like Daniel 4:23 and Ezekiel 4:6. Since a kind of "EIGHTH king" was formally announced to the world in 1920 (initially identified as the "League of nations") and the Anglo American world power was already experiencing a decline by that year, we are already considering a rather solid confirmation of this foretold 2,520 year time span. But there is MORE! A "tribulation" like no other the earth had ever experienced had begun right in the midst of this very same time frame, namely the one that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:21, and 22, or for that matter also the Apostle John in Revelation 12:12. Are we really to imagine it was merely a coincidence that this was prophetically pictured as occurring immediately after the announcing of the "SEVENTH trumpet blast" or what the Apostle Paul had already identified as the "LAST trumpet." (Re 11:15) (1 Cor 15:51-53)
I believe you are very mistaken about the timing of the blowing of the 7 trumpets and especially the blowing of the seventh in line with a 1914 setting.

Reason why: -

1. When the 7th trumpet is blown the mystery of God will be accomplished, a mystery that is only made known to select certain ones ahead of this time.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

The reveling of this mystery would likely be tied in with Jesus words about the sign of the son of man appearing in heaven for ALL to see.
Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

This is the Revelation that is hoped for by true Christians.
1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed
2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This did not happen in 1914 nor has it happened yet.

2. The 7th trumpet is blown after the 2 witnesses are killed - see the context of Revelation 11.
These two witnesses are here, right up until Christ intervenes and are included in the gathering of the elect just before the 7 bowls of Gods wrath are poured out.
Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Christ did not intervene in 1914 nor has he yet.

3. The two witnesses are killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss, when they have finally finished their witnessing work.
Revelation 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

This wild beast is not the one that is seen ascending out of the sea in Revelation 13, the Greek word used for sea and abyss are very different. Rev 13 uses the Greek word translated as sea. Rev 11 uses the Greek word that is translated as abyss.
The wild beast that ascends out of the abyss is linked with the 8th King. It is this 8th King that is instrumental in killing the two witnesses, note that it would first have to be abyssed and come out of an abyss before it could complete this end and also the two witnesses would have had to have finished their work.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

If you believe this 8th King to be the League of Nations, that appeared in 1920 and went into inactivity or was abyssed when WW2 broke out and then remerged or came out of inactivity or ascended from an abyss as the United Nations after WW2, then any fulfillment of the 7th trumpet blowing must come in a time frame after 1945.

4. The trumpets do not even start blowing until after ALL of Christs brothers are clearly identified or sealed.
Note that Revelation 7 includes the clear command of not harming any symbolic tree, symbolic sea or symbolic land until after ALL these servants of God have been identified.

Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

The first two trumpets are specifically aimed at killing a 1/3 or the trees and a 1/3 of the earth and a 1/3 or the sea.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Revelation 8:8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Thus any fulfillment in relation of the blowing of the 7 trumpets must come after ALL who are destined to rule with Christ have been identified and is marked by the releasing of these 4 winds into all the earth.

Again, this did not happen in 1914 nor has it happened yet.

Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#16 Post by Stranger » 2 months ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
2 months ago
Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Revelation 8:8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Thus any fulfillment in relation of the blowing of the 7 trumpets must come after ALL who are destined to rule with Christ have been identified and is marked by the releasing of these 4 winds into all the earth.

Again, this did not happen in 1914 nor has it happened yet.

"In a place you only dream of
where your soul is always free
silver stages, golden curtains
filled my head plain as can be
as a rainbow grew around the sun
all my stars of love who died
came from somewhere beyond the scene you see
these lovely people played just for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2UEqMxcspw


Stranger, (Rev 15:2)

Stranger
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#17 Post by Stranger » 2 months ago

This is in response to post #4 in the Farmer's to destoy crops thread.


{SP}

"When my neighbor the "Georgia Bobcat" and I go out Tomcattin' with the dogs tagging along
in those Georgia Hills, Fox chasing just like so many times before, it sounds a little some like this"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqgB6tbKC4


Stranger, (Song 2:15)

User avatar
coccus ilicis
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#18 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

menrov wrote:
7 years ago
This has always been one of my questions I cannot really answer. Throughout the bible we can read that Jehovah hates idolatry and He often acted with severe punishment, leading to death of many people. Even in Christian times, we can find examples were death was the immediate punishment of dishonesty.
The biggest source of all dishonesty and idolatry is Satan. Adam and Eve listened and they died. But Satan is even allowed to deceive again after the 1000 years. Only then he will be removed (but not killed??) Rev. 20:10 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever

So, what explanation would you give if someone asks why Satan is allowed to do whatever he wants for so long whereas humans are punished almost instantly or at least directly after they died??
Hello Menrov,

Just to add a bit more needed salt to the mix, there are one or two verses in the Bible that need to be considered before attempting to answer that question.

At Rev 2:14, the one who has the sharp two-edged sword writes to the congregation of invited ones at Pergamon. I know where you are dwelling, that is where the throne of Satan is, and yet you keep holding fast to my name, [Jesus/Yehoshua], and you do not deny the faith in me... "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast to the teaching of Balaam, who went teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel to eat the things sacrificed to idols and commit fornication...(Rev 2:12,13,14)

Most here will be familiar with the Biblical account of Balaam, at Nu 22:1 through to Nu 24:25; 31:16, and what Moses said at De 23:3-6. But one needs to take a closer look at two verses in the account.

Image
Google says:A common use of the preposition לְ (also אֶל, with verbs of speaking) is to indicate the indirect object or recipient of the verbal action. When used in this way, the preposition is usually translated into English with “to” or “for”, or it can be left untranslated. as at GEN 1:5 . At Gen 1:5 the preposition לְ is prefixed to the words light and darkness.

Thus these verses should read ...and the anger of Elohim,Gods began to blaze because he, [Balaam], was going, to curse Israel. And the Jehovah angel Satan is standing in the way for him who was riding on his donkey, and two servants were with him... Nu 22:22. And Nu 22:32 should read: And [the] angel Jehovah said to him, [Balaam], "Why have you struck your donkey three times? Behold I satan came out because your way is contrary to me... See also Zec 3:1,2

To answer your question, one needs to first figure out the role Satan plays in the Elohim/Gods' scheme of things. Most probably it's not very different from the role satan, as pictured below, plays in this movie.

And it will be the same role he plays again toward the end of the thousand-year reign after which satan’s role will be made redundant, even a an employer can make one redundant when one’s set of job skills are no longer required.
LRW~

Get out of her
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Re: Why is SATAN still around

#19 Post by Get out of her » 2 months ago

Brother Huish wrote:
I believe you are very mistaken about the timing of the blowing of the 7 trumpets and especially the blowing of the seventh in line with a 1914 setting.

Reason why: -

1. When the 7th trumpet is blown the mystery of God will be accomplished, a mystery that is only made known to select certain ones ahead of this time.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
What you are overlooking here brother Huish is the fact that the events foretold to occur in connection with the "seventh trumpet blast" begin in verse 15 of Chapter 11 and then extend to the very end of the book of Revelation. These prophesies INCLUDED a rising AND subsequent destruction of an "EIGHTH king" that would NEVER be involved with a holy kingdom covenant of Jehovah. (Re 17:10, 11) It is largely for the very reason that it would never be an "anointed shepherd" of Jehovah's people that it would in turn not be included among the "seven times" or "appointed times of the nations" in which "SEVEN kings" in stark contrast WOULD serve for at least a short while as among the figurative "immense trees" that Jehovah himself would recognize as producing "fair" or genuine "food" and shelter for ALL on the earth who would humbly and repentantly accept it. (Isa 44:28 45:1) This would continue until an act of prideful rebellion on its part (prophetically pictured in accounts like Daniel 4:30 or 5:1-4) would result in a subsequent "chopping down" of this relatively modest expression of genuine theocratic authority and power and a subsequent replacing of it with a NEW world power. (Mt 3:10) (Lu 3:9)

Brother Huish wrote:
This did not happen in 1914 nor has it happened yet.

2. The 7th trumpet is blown after the 2 witnesses are killed - see the context of Revelation 11.
These two witnesses are here, right up until Christ intervenes and are included in the gathering of the elect just before the 7 bowls of Gods wrath are poured out.
Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Christ did not intervene in 1914 nor has he yet.
First of all I'm assuming you meant to say 1912 as opposed to 1914 since a firmly established scriptural starting point of 609 BCE would in turn point to the foretold 2,520 year time frame of this foreign "exile and captivity" ending two years earlier than 1914. (Jer 1:3) Moreover the "intervention" you speak of here was simply identified for this year as basically an ejection of Satan and the demons from the heavens altogether and a subsequent confining of them to the earth. (Re 12:7-9) It would be precisely the intense "anger" that satan would experience over this event that would result in a "tribulation" or even "woe" for mankind that Jesus himself had long before identified as one the earth would have NEVER experienced and would not do so ever again. (Re 12:12) (Mt 24:21, 22) Obviously by as early 1914 the devastating effects of this foretold "great anger" of satan were being felt by people throughout the entire earth.

With that said a closer consideration of the "context of Revelation 11" you mention here will actually reveal that the "killing of the two witnesses" being addressed in this account would in this case have occurred PRIOR to the "seventh trumpet blast." This was actually foretold as among the things that would unfold with the "SIXTH trumpet." (Re 9:13) After Babylon the sixth world power that mankind experienced was Great Britain. Moreover we can be certain this "sixth king" of the EARTHLY "temple courtyard" or "camp" of Jehovah's "sanctuary" began experiencing its rise to world dominance in the years immediately prior to the 1700s since this was precisely the time frame pinpointed with the prophecy of the "2,300 evenings and mornings" found in Daniel Chapter 8. (Re 11:1-3) (Song 6:13) Once again however this only occurs when we apply the "day for a year" formula provided for us by prophets like Ezekiel. (Da 8:14) (Eze 4:6) What makes this even more interesting however is that among the much more benevolent and wise rulers of its EARLIER years was one by the name of Sir Isaac Newton. Among the things uncovered in his writings after his death was that he had also managed to use the scriptures to calculate the early 1900s as the end of the foretold "appointed times of the nations." The fact is it was NOT the International Bible Students Association that initially endeavored to calculate this prophetic time frame.

I do not currently claim to know who exactly it was that filled the role of the "two witnesses" whose ministry, death and subsequent "call to heaven" would lead to the "sixth" OR "seventh" Levants of the foreign world powers which for at least a short time would play host to genuine worshipers of Jehovah while in a covenant relationship with him. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12 17:10) We can be certain that Isaac Newton was NOT one of them however since he was obviously here on the earth DURING this rise to power.

Agape love;
Sol

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Why is SATAN still around

#20 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 months ago

Get out of her wrote:
2 months ago
What you are overlooking here brother Huish is the fact that the events foretold to occur in connection with the "seventh trumpet blast" begin in verse 15 of Chapter 11 and then extend to the very end of the book of Revelation.
I most certainly was not overlooking this fact. This is why I have pointed it out here, that the two witnesses are killed before the 7th trumpet blows, see point 2: -
Kerry Huish wrote:
2 months ago
2. The 7th trumpet is blown after the 2 witnesses are killed - see the context of Revelation 11.
These two witnesses are here, right up until Christ intervenes and are included in the gathering of the elect just before the 7 bowls of Gods wrath are poured out.
Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This trumpet - the final one - blows after Christ has intervened, after the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven for ALL to see: -

Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

You are teaching that the fulfillment of his 7th and final trumpet has already occured and that of two witnesses in Revelation, that the resurrection has already occured.

You teaching reminds me of Paul's words: -

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

The scriptures show that the two witnesses are killed off by the wild beast that assecnds of of the abyss, not the sea, and this occurs BEFORE the 7th trumpet blows, indicating a time and setting that is way past the time frame that you are focusing upon, it is yet future.

In line with this, you also appear to be mute on the other 2 objections I raised in relation to why I believe you are wrong in placing the 7th trumpet as blowing in a 1914 or 1912 setting?

Namely: -
Kerry Huish wrote:
2 months ago
3. The two witnesses are killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss, when they have finally finished their witnessing work.
Revelation 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

This wild beast is not the one that is seen ascending out of the sea in Revelation 13, the Greek word used for sea and abyss are very different. Rev 13 uses the Greek word translated as sea. Rev 11 uses the Greek word that is translated as abyss.
The wild beast that ascends out of the abyss is linked with the 8th King. It is this 8th King that is instrumental in killing the two witnesses, note that it would first have to be abyssed and come out of an abyss before it could complete this end and also the two witnesses would have had to have finished their work.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

If you believe this 8th King to be the League of Nations, that appeared in 1920 and went into inactivity or was abyssed when WW2 broke out and then remerged or came out of inactivity or ascended from an abyss as the United Nations after WW2, then any fulfillment of the 7th trumpet blowing must come in a time frame after 1945.

4. The trumpets do not even start blowing until after ALL of Christs brothers are clearly identified or sealed.
Note that Revelation 7 includes the clear command of not harming any symbolic tree, symbolic sea or symbolic land until after ALL these servants of God have been identified.

Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

The first two trumpets are specifically aimed at killing a 1/3 or the trees and a 1/3 of the earth and a 1/3 or the sea.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Revelation 8:8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Thus any fulfillment in relation of the blowing of the 7 trumpets must come after ALL who are destined to rule with Christ have been identified and is marked by the releasing of these 4 winds into all the earth.

Again, this did not happen in 1914 nor has it happened yet.
I am not really interested in continually arguinging a point with you or continually debating over words with you.
But I have spoken here in order for you to present a defense for what you believe and teach, in line with scrutiny, for others to maybe comprehend what it is you are really saying, if they can.

You initially seemed to be teaching that the 7th trumpet blew against a 1912-1920 backdrop but then you dropped Issac Newton and 1700's into the mix, so I am not really sure what it is that you are teaching...

I am saying that you are mistaken and have presented 4 scriptural points that should cause you to re-evaluate your position or at least cause you to respond to each point in a sound way.

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Many times people question you but you rarely ever provide a clear reason for your beliefs and teachings. You present many words, but very little sound logic or at least explanations that can be reasoned with.

Maybe you will this time?

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots?...

Let's see.

Regards

Kerry Huish
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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