Memorial Season ?

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Nightingale
Posts: 476
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Re: Memorial Season ?

#31 Post by Nightingale » 2 years ago

This is quite interesting

"Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."

John S
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Re: Memorial Season ?

#32 Post by John S » 2 years ago

I do believe in this case, as we say here in the Southern States of USA,...

‘ Breaking Bread’.....means eating a meal.

Jesus, said prayers several times after taking the loaf, and breaking it to portion it out.

This is a long stretch to say this expression meant every time the Memorial Service was being performed.


In my thinking, and understanding, Jesus said , keep doing this in remembrance of me, and I shall not eat it with you until the We eat it in the Kingdom.

Since the Great Passover was only commemorated on that Nissan 14 each year,....and all over the world, when a commemoration is honored...it is done once a year. Anniversaries, birthdays, any special Jewish holiday...etc. and this is the custom worldwide.

Just because Paul said , ‘as often as you eat it’, I don’t see this as license to data commemorative death meal more than on the annual day he died.

To me it’s offensive to make light of such a solemn and serious occasion. As will happen if done as in some churches, monthly or even weekly, and I have done it , but noted it’s a ritual with no where near the impact as a solemn annual occurrence.

The Jewish Passover...and they were God’s People....was annual. I see it appropriate to have an annual Memorial observance.

But, I won’t judge anyone on this. I do think the often ceremony diminishes the importance .

John S
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Re: Memorial Season ?

#33 Post by John S » 2 years ago

Of Course JW’s would get so much more out of the Memorial if they understood everyone, including children, should partake of the emblems, as everyone who puts faith in Christ’s body and blood, ‘eats, and drinks’ them, which is what he command us to do.

Everyone.

“Jesus said to them, ‘ I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died,but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58

The Memorial occasion means so little to many JW’s in the USA, that large dinner parties are arranged for your right after the Memorial, which is ‘gotten out of the way’ in about 40 minutes now....and the ‘publishers’ can go do what they want to do....having a night off to socialize with friends.


No one partakes, but are disobedient to these commands above.

So the Memorial should instead of the greatest meeting every year, has become a burden, something to get out of the way, spring cleaning of the Hall is done, well, we did our duty!

How do you think Jesus feels about this way JE’s treat his sacrificial life commemoration?

It’s no wonder they chastise those who have been born of the spirit, and ridicule and mock them. There is a total lack of respect and honor being promoted by WT, because they teach the Paradise earth is the only hope actually the door being closed, so to speak...

But that is just what Satan is delighting in!

He has won with this lie. Millions are under this false doctrinal spell. Very dangerous ground.

Jesus started very plainly, ‘He that is not for me, is against me.’

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#34 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

To me it’s offensive to make light of such a solemn and serious occasion. As will happen if done as in some churches, monthly or even weekly, and I have done it , but noted it’s a ritual with no where near the impact as a solemn annual occurrence.

The Jewish Passover...and they were God’s People....was annual. I see it appropriate to have an annual Memorial observance.

But, I won’t judge anyone on this. I do think the often ceremony diminishes the importance .
I think Paul would say that it is good that you won't judge anyone on this. (Rom 14:5)

Based on what Paul said in 1Co 11:17-34, the Corinthians commemorated it when "you meet together" (1Co 11:17 NWT), "when you come together in a congregation" (1Co 11:18 NWT), and "when you come together in one place." (1Co 11:20 NWT) Traditionally and historically this was usually on "the first day of every week." (1Co 16:2) The day that later became known as "the Lord's day." (Rev 1:10)

I would imagine that Jews would have been more inclined to think of the Lord's Evening Meal as an annual commemoration due to the close connection with the Jewish Passover. The Corinthians, on the other hand, had no such background. They went straight from being pagan to being Christian. And no where in the NT letters do we see any instruction that connects the Lord's Evening Meal with the need to hold it on "the Passover of the Jews" as the 4th gospel writer terms it. Instead, Christ is "our Passover." (1Co 5:7) And the need to "celebrate the festival" with "sincerity and truth" would align itself more with an all year point of view. (1Co 5:8; Notice also that a yearly Passover date is not among the "necessary things" for Gentiles to keep peace with Jewish Christians. [Acts 15:28-29] Of course, that is an argument from silence.)

Another thing that probably affects modern views is the fact that the commemoration generally involved a meal. (1Co 11:21, 33) Having just the emblems might change the character of the occasion in many person's minds. Calling it "the Memorial" rather than "the Lord's Evening Meal" probably also affects how one views it.

Interestingly, Ignatius of Loyola saw the abandonment of a weekly "communion" as detrimental to spirituality (here). Of course, that was his opinion.

Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 1901
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#35 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote,
I would imagine that Jews would have been more inclined to think of the Lord's Evening Meal as an annual commemoration due to the close connection with the Jewish Passover. The Corinthians, on the other hand, had no such background. They went straight from being pagan to being Christian. And no where in the NT letters do we see any instruction that connects the Lord's Evening Meal with the need to hold it on "the Passover of the Jews" as the 4th gospel writer terms it. Instead, Christ is "our Passover." (1Co 5:7) And the need to "celebrate the festival" with "sincerity and truth" would align itself more with an all year point of view. (1Co 5:8; Notice also that a yearly Passover date is not among the "necessary things" for Gentiles to keep peace with Jewish Christians. [Acts 15:28-29] Of course, that is an argument from silence.)

Excellent post Bobcat! You have displayed matured wisdom, that I for one appreciate. You definitely don't sound like some giddy JW house shopping while out in service, ("That's the house I want after Armageddon"). :lol:

We seem to be getting more and more folks here that are detailing what it is to be anointed using only JW false doctrine. Maybe with a little time they may come to the common sense of the Lord Jesus Christ. (hopefully)


Stranger, (Mal 1:7 KJV)

goghtherefore
Posts: 128
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#36 Post by goghtherefore » 2 years ago

Hi Bobcat

Re: " Calling it "the Memorial" rather than "the Lord's Evening Meal" probably also affects how one views it."

I feel this is an important point.

Remembering Jesus is more than (not to diminish!) offering his life, but, imo, all about Him! His life, His teaching, His example and all that has been and is being accomplished by His Precious offering willingly His life on behalf of the human family and accomplishing our Fathers will. To me, now..the Lord's evening meal is much more than a solemn occasion (not to diminish His suffering and death), but one of much more gratitude for everything about Jesus, than anything else.

Christian love and appreciation,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Get out of her
Posts: 942
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#37 Post by Get out of her » 2 years ago

John S wrote:
Of Course JW’s would get so much more out of the Memorial if they understood everyone, including children, should partake of the emblems, as everyone who puts faith in Christ’s body and blood, ‘eats, and drinks’ them, which is what he command us to do.

Everyone.

“Jesus said to them, ‘ I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died,but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58
Hello again John S and as always I appreciated hearing your thoughts. Moreover you and I are certainly in agreement that the JW organization is very much in the dark also on this issue of the Memorial observance. To be perfectly honest however I don't yet consider myself as having a complete grasp on the subject either, and I'm actually hopeful that this discussion might help me clear up a question I still have on the matter. (Thank you Bobcat for refreshing the topic again recently) The Apostle Paul states the following in 1 Cor 11:27-29:

27 "Consequently whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgement against himself if he does not discern the body." (1 Cor 11:27-29)

The first question I would pose here would be this:

If it were the case that EVERYONE should be partaking of the memorial emblems, then how would it even be possible for someone to partake "unworthily?" Moreover if even many of the adults in these settings were having difficulty in "discerning the body," what would this imply with respect to children?

In my own case I continue to find scriptural evidence that it would only be the spirit anointed ones who would be expected to partake of the emblems. This was after all the ones Jesus was addressing when issuing this command. However they certainly would not want to be doing so at the memorial services of "Jehovah's Witnesses" when they have fallen into complete apostasy, as this figurative "manna" or "bread from heaven" is only found in the spiritual "wilderness" during these time periods. (John 6:48-51) (Mt 24:15, 16) (2 Cor 6:17) (Da 11:30-32) So what is it that I AM still struggling with?

Here in this same account of first Corinthians chapter 11, Paul also states the following:

26 "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord UNTIL HE ARRIVES." (1 Cor 11:26)

You see at least in a preliminary sense Jesus had ALREADY "arrived" even while he was issuing these instructions to his first century followers. What is more, he was just about to (in at least some sense) make this "arrival" or restoration of the theocratic kingdom COMPLETE by officially inaugurating this renewed covenant with his own blood. (Lu 22:29) (He 9:16-18) As we can see here in 1st Corinthians Chapter 11 however, this annual Memorial service was still nevertheless being observed here in this context of a renewed marriage covenant. So what does this mean?

This would seem to indicate that the "arrivals" associated with the "kingdom of the son of his love" as opposed to the long anticipated Millennial Reign did not qualify as the "arrival" that Paul was speaking of here. (Col 1:13) In at least some sense, the "death of our Lord" was still to be "proclaimed" with this memorial observance all the way up until the Millennial Reign. But here's the dilemma I face:

The scriptures make it exceedingly clear to me that the FINAL foretold installment or birth of the theocratic kingdom would at least INITIALLY be experienced only in heaven. (Re 11:15 12:12) Basically the only benefits Jesus' EARTHLY followers could initially anticipate from this "arrival" would be that the figurative "goats" would now begin to be "separated" from them. (Mt 25:31-33) So since you and I happen to agree that this final foretold "arrival" actually began in 1914, the question I would pose to you specifically John S is should we presently even be commemorating the Memorial observance AT ALL?

For my part I am inclined to recognize that the anointed here on the earth SHOULD continue to observe these memorials until this final foretold "arrival" or birth of the nation is complete. The Apostle Paul makes it clear that when the EARTH experiences the full effect of this final arrival or "last trumpet," we will all be keenly aware of it. Any true theocratic shepherds will at that point exist only in the form of "incorruptible and immortal kings and priests." (1 Cor 15:51-53) (Re 5:9, 10) (Mt 24:30)

So if anyone might have some scriptural input on this particular issue, I for one would love to consider it. In the meantime I also like yourself (John S) intend to observe the memorial this year in the privacy of my own home.

Agape love;
Sol

leaving_quietly
Posts: 761
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#38 Post by leaving_quietly » 2 years ago

27 "Consequently whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgement against himself if he does not discern the body." (1 Cor 11:27-29)

The first question I would pose here would be this:

If it were the case that EVERYONE should be partaking of the memorial emblems, then how would it even be possible for someone to partake "unworthily?" Moreover if even many of the adults in these settings were having difficulty in "discerning the body," what would this imply with respect to children?
Which "body" should one discern? His/her own? It's answered in verse 27: "respecting the body and the blood of the Lord". That said, what makes up "the body"? Go back one chapter to 1 Cor 10:17: "Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf." And forward one chapter to 1 Cor 12:12: "For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit."

Paul's whole point is that they were treating the occasion as of ordinary value, even asking if they were "despising the congregation of God" (1 Cor 11:21-22). He outright stated that when they came together to commune, they weren't really sharing in the Lord's Evening Meal because of HOW they were doing it, some coming intoxicated. Discerning the body isn't about who I am or MY condition. It's about the Lord's body and being part of it. It IS about us as far as that goes, but it's about our fellow body members, as well.

You ask, what would this imply with respect to children? Seems Paul believed children are sanctified when their parents were together, even if one was unbelieving. (1 Cor 7:14). Other than that, I know of no other statement in the Bible relating to children and their salvation, thus could not say with regards to partaking. One would have to judge for themselves.

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#39 Post by Bobcat » 2 years ago

Hi LQ,

Thanks very much for that contextual input regarding "the body." Good researching!


Thank you for your comments Stranger! I guess we are all at different stages in our walk in life. And I know it takes a while to shed some of the 'baggage' we've accumulated. The WT theology is very comprehensive and encompassing. (I'm still hoping to get with you and 'break bread.')


And thank you for your thoughts goghtherefore! Yes, "the Memorial." It's also now an "event." And for the tract campaign they also have a brief video that shows you how to reject the emblems in a dignified manner. (Great googleligoo!)

Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 1901
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Memorial Season ?

#40 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Bobcat wrote,

I guess we are all at different stages in our walk in life.
Hi Bobcat,

Yes for sure, everyone must crawl before they walk and it's not much fun walking on your knees. (Heb 12:12)

I gotta keep remembering how delicate some still want to be, I gotta keep remembering to step "light" on old toes.

And I know it takes a while to shed some of the 'baggage' we've accumulated. The WT theology is very comprehensive and encompassing.
How well I know, I'm from a family that had/has the whole WT library on bookshelves in the living room, but they have seemed to have disappeared here in the recent years. (I don't ask what happened to all the books but I think WT is encouraging people to discard it.) That in itself should light at least a little candle for any self thinking member.

To think of all the preaching hours and effort put forth through out the years to place all that literature just to have it all trashed. It makes me wonder why they didn't just stick with the original real Bible. But then again I know why they didn't, they would have never been able to stay in business. I still put my One book against every one of theirs and the funny thing is, it's the one they started with but they decided to move on without their root. (Jesus Christ)

One thing I have realized out here in this foggy wilderness is that there is no church in sight, but if you listen real well you can hear the bells ringing in the distance.


Stranger, traveling "light" cause I can't stay long. (Gal 5:1)

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