So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

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Kerry Huish
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#61 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

The ways a trumpet can be blown.

Numbers 10:5, 6 “When you sound a fluctuating trumpet blast, the camps of those to the east should depart. When you sound a fluctuating trumpet blast a second time, the camps of those to the south should depart. They should sound the trumpet blasts in this way each time one of them departs.

This again harmonizes with the order of resurrection that has been presented thus far.
So it is entirely possible that the 7th trumpet is blown in a peculiar fashion, a fluctuation.

1st fluctuation = 5th seal - those dead who are of the 144k are raised.
2nd fluctuation = 7th trumpet/last trumpet - those who belong to Christ during his presence, who are also part of the 144k are raised.

Beyond this, we will just have to agree that we disagree.
And as far as disagreements go, this is minor issue.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#62 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

Minor issue? :eek:

This website is named: 'Discuss the Truth" :dtt-write:

It is a place for those that have realized that the WTS does not teach the truth in many regards. If people who were JW's or who still are, if they believed the WTS for any length of time in their life, it shows that they vulnerable to accepting false teachings. Teaching that the resurrection occurs before its due time is said to be deviating from the truth.

At Matt 24:30,31 it states that when Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven AFTER the GT is cut short, it connects a great trumpet sound with gathering his chosen ones together. At 1 Corinthians 15:52 it states that the LAST trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised and the living will be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows that it is when Jesus arrives that the dead and the living chosen ones are raised.

Being that the 7th trumpet is the Last trumpet it seems that the great trumpet sound that is heard when Jesus arrives is the 7th trumpet/Last trumpet and that is when it is said to be gathering his chosen one together. The 7th trumpet blows at the point that God's heavenly kingdom actually arrives. This is when the LAST DAY/1,000 years begin. That is why all the chosen have to be raised together at the same time, to begin their power/reward of ruling as kings for the 1,000 years.

You are as misleading as the WTS when it comes to this topic. You both ignore the timing of when the Last Trumpet/7th trumpet occurs which in turns throws out of whack the beginning of when the last day/1,000 years begin, when the 'first resurrection' begins, and when God's kingdom actually arrives. And even more in common that you both are teaching is that Jesus has multiply arrivals. :?:

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17... the Lord himself will descend from heaven :?: with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, ‘at the same time’ with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

[Matt 24: 30... the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven :?: with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Corinthians 15:52... ‘at’ the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world (SATAN"S) has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”]

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#63 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
Minor issue? :eek:

This website is named: 'Discuss the Truth" :dtt-write:

It is a place for those that have realized that the WTS does not teach the truth in many regards. If people who were JW's or who still are, if they believed the WTS for any length of time in their life, it shows that they vulnerable to accepting false teachings. Teaching that the resurrection occurs before its due time is said to be deviating from the truth.

At Matt 24:30,31 it states that when Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven AFTER the GT is cut short, it connects a great trumpet sound with gathering his chosen ones together. At 1 Corinthians 15:52 it states that the LAST trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised and the living will be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows that it is when Jesus arrives that the dead and the living chosen ones are raised.

Being that the 7th trumpet is the Last trumpet it seems that the great trumpet sound that is heard when Jesus arrives is the 7th trumpet/Last trumpet and that is when it is said to be gathering his chosen one together. The 7th trumpet blows at the point that God's heavenly kingdom actually arrives. This is when the LAST DAY/1,000 years begin. That is why all the chosen have to be raised together at the same time, to begin their power/reward of ruling as kings for the 1,000 years.

You are as misleading as the WTS when it comes to this topic. You both ignore the timing of when the Last Trumpet/7th trumpet occurs which in turns throws out of whack the beginning of when the last day/1,000 years begin, when the 'first resurrection' begins, and when God's kingdom actually arrives. And even more in common that you both are teaching is that Jesus has multiply arrivals. :?:

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17... the Lord himself will descend from heaven :?: with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, ‘at the same time’ with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

[Matt 24: 30... the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven :?: with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Corinthians 15:52... ‘at’ the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world (SATAN"S) has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”]
You are free to believe as you wish...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Stranger
Posts: 2233
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#64 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
It is a place for those that have realized that the WTS does not teach the truth in many regards. If people who were JW's or who still are, if they believed the WTS for any length of time in their life, it shows that they vulnerable to accepting false teachings. Teaching that the resurrection occurs before its due time is said to be deviating from the truth.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
You are as misleading as the WTS when it comes to this topic.

"Pow, right between the eyes.
Oh how nature loves her little surprises
Wow, it all seems so logical now
it's just one of her better disguises
and it comes with no warning, nature loves her little surprises"

Upvote for JA 2.0 :thumbup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGM43B_kyxk


Stranger, (Matt 24:36 KJV)

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#65 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Whilst I am in agreement with Johnamos, that I think there are only two resurrections, one which starts at Christ's arrival and the other after the 1000 years (so anything do to with "resurrections" such as the 5th seal I think have to be read "In context" to the statements said by Jesus and the apostles, meaning the 5th seal is either most likely symbolic or something else in relation to Christ's arrival) we should just do our best to get along despite our interpretations, I can see this developing into factions if people keep on trying push one another's buttons. :)
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#66 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

by Proselytiser of Jah
I think there are only two resurrections, one which starts at Christ's arrival and the other after the 1000 years
When you say 'two resurrections' surly you are referring to the said 'first resurrection' for those that will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years, which you rightful point out occurs at Jesus' arrival. But when you say 'the other AFTER the 1,000 years', why is it that you think that?

If we are talking about the earthly resurrection when you say 'the other', I think that the WTS may just be right in saying that the earthly resurrection takes place orderly throughout the 1,000 years/last day. And that the reference for 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1,000 years ended', is not referring to them as not being resurrected during the 1,000 years but instead is saying that they are not to be said to come to life yet at/during the time of their being resurrected. The are still in a judgement phase and that phase will not end until the 1,000 years end and Satan is allowed to put them through the final test.

If you don't think that any of those that will receive the earthly resurrection will be resurrected until AFTER the 1,000 years then what you would be saying is that there would be the 'first resurrection' that occurs at Jesus' coming and they would now be in their said position with him (ALL TOGETHER having been gathered at the same time) to begin ruling as kings for the 1,000 years that would now begin with the arrival of God's kingdom at that point. And then you would have the 'great crowd' (The Sheep) that are the ONLY ones living on the earth during the 1,000 years under Jesus and his co-rulers. These of the 'great crowd' will not have to be tested again by Satan. They passed their test during the GT, that is what allowed them to be spared at Armageddon. They do not just have LIFE because they are living but because they had been judged worthy of LIFE. It is those that are resurrected during the 1,000 years that will have to be tested at the end to see if they are judged worthy of LIFE AFTER the final test. That is why it states that they came to LIFE AFTER the end of the 1,000 years.

If that is not the case, to you suppose that it is ONLY the 'great crowd' on earth during the 1,000 years under the kingdom rule, and then when the 1,000 years end and Satan is let lose, to mislead in the final test, that it is then at that time that the earthly resurrection will take place for all during that time?

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#67 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
by Proselytiser of Jah
I think there are only two resurrections, one which starts at Christ's arrival and the other after the 1000 years
When you say 'two resurrections' surly you are referring to the said 'first resurrection' for those that will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years, which you rightful point out occurs at Jesus' arrival. But when you say 'the other AFTER the 1,000 years', why is it that you think that?

If we are talking about the earthly resurrection when you say 'the other', I think that the WTS may just be right in saying that the earthly resurrection takes place orderly throughout the 1,000 years/last day. And that the reference for 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1,000 years ended', is not referring to them as not being resurrected during the 1,000 years but instead is saying that they are not to be said to come to life yet at/during the time of their being resurrected. The are still in a judgement phase and that phase will not end until the 1,000 years end and Satan is allowed to put them through the final test.

If you don't think that any of those that will receive the earthly resurrection will be resurrected until AFTER the 1,000 years then what you would be saying is that there would be the 'first resurrection' that occurs at Jesus' coming and they would now be in their said position with him (ALL TOGETHER having been gathered at the same time) to begin ruling as kings for the 1,000 years that would now begin with the arrival of God's kingdom at that point. And then you would have the 'great crowd' (The Sheep) that are the ONLY ones living on the earth during the 1,000 years under Jesus and his co-rulers. These of the 'great crowd' will not have to be tested again by Satan. They passed their test during the GT, that is what allowed them to be spared at Armageddon. They do not just have LIFE because they are living but because they had been judged worthy of LIFE. It is those that are resurrected during the 1,000 years that will have to be tested at the end to see if they are judged worthy of LIFE AFTER the final test. That is why it states that they came to LIFE AFTER the end of the 1,000 years.

If that is not the case, to you suppose that it is ONLY the 'great crowd' on earth during the 1,000 years under the kingdom rule, and then when the 1,000 years end and Satan is let lose, to mislead in the final test, that it is then at that time that the earthly resurrection will take place for all during that time?
I mispoke. I believe the first resurrection are the elect at Christ's arrival, and then the second are those coming out of the graves either "during" the 1000 years to be educated by Christ and the 144,000, where some may reject Christ outright and choose death, this may be a reference to the man at 100 years old dying being accursed in Isaiah (all this of course is if the words "after the thousand years are spurious, which I think is likely) otherwise "after" the thousand years, and then it would seem these people are raised to be "immediately tested" by Satan, but I think resurrections during the 1000 years seems to make more logistic sense, and especially if the words "after the 1000 years" was added into scripture later.

As for "two Christian classes" I wrote my thoughts on that, of course I do not believe the Great Crowd are the "other sheep", I believe the Great Crowd in Heaven are the literal fulfillment of the symbolic 144k , my own methodology/interpretation of there being two classes comes from completely different reasoning to the WT's theology (which I think is very flawed).

I don't think all non-Christian people will die during Armageddon, but only those who oppose Christ directly and support the governments of this system to the bitter end at his arrival, whereas everyone else, including non-elect Christians will be spared to live throughout the 1000 year reign and will witness the second resurrection.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#68 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

I mispoke. I believe the first resurrection are the elect at Christ's arrival, and then the second are those coming out of the graves either "during" the 1000 years to be educated by Christ and the 144,000,...
... otherwise "after" the thousand years, and then it would seem these people are raised to be "immediately tested" by Satan, but I think resurrections during the 1000 years seems to make more logistic sense,
That clears up for me what I was wondering on how you view it.
the 'great crowd' (The Sheep) that are the ONLY ones living on the earth during the 1,000 years under Jesus and his co-rulers.
I do not believe the Great Crowd are the "other sheep",
My referring to 'the sheep' is in regards to those that are separated as sheep and goats when Jesus arrives. I would think that these sheep that are put on his right hand at that time are the ones that are then judged to be worthy of LIFE and are the first to live on in the post-Armageddon kingdom, never having to die. Then when they are joined by the earthly resurrected as it begins to take place, those will be the ones that will be said to come to LIFE after passing the final test on them. As to rather the 'great crowd' are the 'sheep' that I am referring to or the '144' that you are referring to, IDK. I just know that their will be those that are chosen to be co-rulers with Jesus and those that will be the first to inherit the earth under God's kingdom. In either case, they are both a 'crowd' of people and judged to be as 'sheep' like people as well.
I don't think all non-Christian people will die during Armageddon, but only those who oppose Christ directly and support the governments of this system to the bitter end at his arrival
I agree 100%!

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#69 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote:
2 weeks ago
The timing of Daniel 12:2 occurs before the 7th trumpet is blown. So it cannot possibly be referring to the resurrection which occurs during the millennium as the 144k are raised 1st.

Daniel 12 shows that there are still holy ones alive on the earth at this time of awakening, so the 7th trumpet cannot have blown at this point. It says they, the holy ones, are soon to be dashed to pieces during this time.

Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”

These holy ones are the remaining ones left on earth that ARE of the 144k.

Daniel 7:“21, 22 I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,  until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.
Daniel's three and a half times followed by a further 1290 days also harmonizes with what is found in Revelation 11 concerning the Two Witnesses.
The Two Witnesses are appointed to prophesy for 1260 days, this harmonizes with the time frame mentioned in Daniel 12:7a this results from the pouring out of the spirit upon ALL where all those living are brought to into judgement - also see post #30

Daniel 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.
Revelation 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

After they have finished their witnessing work, after the 1260 days are complete, the wild beast will then make war with them, kill them and conquer them.
The wild beast accomplishes this during the time that it turns on the harlot.
This links Daniel 12:7b and Daniel 12:11 with Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:16

Revelation 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
Daniel 12:7b When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Revelation 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days

Right after the Two Witnesses are killed, the 7th trumpet blows, completing the Great Tribulation phase, swiftly moving onto the Bowls phase.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#70 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

** correction to the above **

References made to Daniel 11:7 should read Daniel 12:7
I could not edit it in time...
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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