So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

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Kerry Huish
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Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#51 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Kerry when does the Last Day begin? I am referring to the Last Day that Jesus said that he was going to resurrect those that were given him and also said it in connection with Lazarus. Also do u agree that the 7th trumpet is the Last Trumpet? If so when does the 7th trumpet sound?
The last day is the 1000 year reign.
Those ressurected here are ressurected to judgment and placed on a path that leads to life.

However...

There is an earlier resurrection in which the Apostle Paul hoped for.

Philipians 3:10, 11 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.

This earlier resurrection is only for the 144k.
This earlier resurrection is not a resurrection to judgment but a resurrection to life and incorruption and immortality.

This earlier resurrection takes place at the opening of the 5th seal for some and the 7th trumpet for the rest.

The 7th trumpet blows 1335 days before the 1000 year reign starts.

Kind Regards

Kerry Huish
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#52 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

by Kerry
The last day is the 1000 year reign.
I agree completely with that.
This earlier resurrection is only for the 144k.
I agree completely with that, but I personally would just refer to it this way, "This earlier resurrection is only for those that will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years."
This earlier resurrection takes place at the opening of the 5th seal for some and the 7th trumpet for the rest.
The 7th trumpet blows 1335 days before the 1000 year reign starts.
Okay tell me if I understand you correctly...

Timeline
>>>>earlier resurrection 5th seal for some>>>>>>>>>>7th trumpet earlier resurrection for the rest>>>>>>>1,335 days later Last Day/1,000 begin.

If that is correct, I have these questions for you.

[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

Whom are those/them that are being referred to? Are they due the earlier resurrection?

[John 11:24 “I know he (Lazarus) will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]

Is Lazarus due the earlier resurrection?

When the kingdom (God's kingdom) in which we pray to come arrives, is that when the 1,000 years begin, or does that kingdom arrive prior to the 1,000 years beginning?

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#53 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Okay tell me if I understand you correctly...

Timeline
>>>>earlier resurrection 5th seal for some>>>>>>>>>>7th trumpet earlier resurrection for the rest>>>>>>>1,335 days later Last Day/1,000 begin.

If that is correct, I have these questions for you.
This is what I beleive to be correct.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

Whom are those/them that are being referred to? Are they due the earlier resurrection?
The world belongs to Christ, by means of his blood, he purchased it all, so this would include: -

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Are they due the earlier resurrection?
Only those who died as part of the 144k will have an earlier resurrection.

Matthew 20:20-23 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. He said to her: “What do you want?” She replied to him: “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.” Jesus answered: “You do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
[John 11:24 “I know he (Lazarus) will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]

Is Lazarus due the earlier resurrection?
Only those who died as part of the 144k will have an earlier resurrection.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
When the kingdom (God's kingdom) in which we pray to come arrives, is that when the 1,000 years begin, or does that kingdom arrive prior to the 1,000 years beginning?
The Kingdom has been functioning on some level since Pentecost 33CE for some.
When the last of the 144k are sealed then the Kingdom will take action with regards the whole earth.

When we pray - thy Kingdom come - we are praying for God's Kingdom with its appointed King to take action towards this whole earth.
Daniel 2 shows that this Kingdom strikes at the feet of the great image. As far as the whole world is concerned, this is when God's Kingdom comes.

This action commences when the spirit is poured out upon ALL, 10 years, 9 months and 15 days before the 1000 year reign starts.

Maybe you could start a new thread for any other questions you may have, if they are not related to the thread topic?

Kind Regards

Kerry.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#54 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]
[John 17:12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them+ on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed+ except the son of destruction,+ so that the scripture might be fulfilled.+]

When I asked you about those/them in John 6:39 you are seeming to claim that it is referring to those that are resurrected to earth and you cite, John 5:28. So can I ask you then whom are being referred to as 'them' at John17:12? Also whom is the 'son of destruction' referring to?

And you cite John 5:28 and use it as a reference to speak about the earthly resurrection, why then do you not view Dan 12:2 the same?
This will result in a great awakening for everybody.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice+ 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.+
Is Lazarus due the earlier resurrection?
Only those who died as part of the 144k will have an earlier resurrection.
Do you agree with what the WTS states here?

[Insight Vol 2 – Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38)]

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#55 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
When I asked you about those/them in John 6:39 you are seeming to claim that it is referring to those that are resurrected to earth and you cite, John 5:28. So can I ask you then whom are being referred to as 'them' at John17:12? Also whom is the 'son of destruction' referring to?
We ALL belong to the Christ, regardless of which resurrection we obtain. John 17:12 seems to be refering to the Apostles and disciples.

It seems that the disciples only had knowledge of the 'last day' resurrection while Jesus was with them on earth. Knowledge and understanding of an 'earlier resurrection' to heaven came later, after the spirit arrived: -

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 16:12, 13 “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.

The son of destruction, as referred to in John 17:12, was Judas.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
And you cite John 5:28 and use it as a reference to speak about the earthly resurrection, why then do you not view Dan 12:2 the same?
The timing of Daniel 12:2 occurs before the 7th trumpet is blown. So it cannot possibly be referring to the resurrection which occurs during the millennium as the 144k are raised 1st.

Daniel 12 shows that there are still holy ones alive on the earth at this time of awakening, so the 7th trumpet cannot have blown at this point. It says they, the holy ones, are soon to be dashed to pieces during this time.

Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”

These holy ones are the remaining ones left on earth that ARE of the 144k.

Daniel 7:“21, 22 I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,  until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.

I have already tried to show you why Daniel 12:2 cannot be referring the early resurrection to immortality as these are raised incorruptible and are not raised to judgment.

The 144k are raised first, before the millennium starts and before the resurrection to judgment starts for the dead, which takes place during the 1000 years or last day.

The only LOGICAL conclusion is, that it must be refering to a spiritual awakening due to the action of Gods spirit that becomes operative upon all during the Great Tribulation.

Joel 2:28-32 After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke.  The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.  And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said, The survivors whom Jehovah calls.”

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Do you agree with what the WTS states here?
[Insight Vol 2 – Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38)]
Just having the holy spirit poured out on you does not in itself make you one of the 144k, more is needed.

Lazarus quite 'likely' was anointed with spirit at Pentecost but whether he qualified for an early resurrection, whether he was one of the 144k, is yet to be seen.

Paul was anointed with holy spirit and yet he only hoped towards an earlier resurrection.

Philippians 3:10, 11 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.

Kind Regards

Kerry Huish
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#56 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

Your Timeline
earlier resurrection 5th seal for some>>>>>>>>earlier resurrection for the rest>>>>>>>>>>1,335 days later Last Day/1,000 begins.
(Last Trumpet)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(7th trumpet)



WTS Timeline
1914>>>>>>>>>>>1918 earlier resurrection for dead chosen and continues on>>>>>>>> until Jesus' arrival at Matt 24:30,31
(7th trumpet)>>>>>>>>(Last Trumpet)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(Last Day/1,000 years begin)


Question for you on your timeline, how does the 7th trumpet sound AFTER the LAST TRUMPET is said to have sounded, are not they one in the same?

If you state all the chosen ones are resurrected as part of the earlier resurrection almost 4 years before the Last day/1,000 years begins, then what do you have them doing all that time before they begin ruling? The do not begin ruling until the 1,000 years begin, correct?

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#57 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#58 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Your Timeline
earlier resurrection 5th seal for some>>>>>>>>earlier resurrection for the rest>>>>>>>>>>1,335 days later Last Day/1,000 begins.
(Last Trumpet)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(7th trumpet)

WTS Timeline
1914>>>>>>>>>>>1918 earlier resurrection for dead chosen and continues on>>>>>>>> until Jesus' arrival at Matt 24:30,31
(7th trumpet)>>>>>>>>(Last Trumpet)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(Last Day/1,000 years begin)


Question for you on your timeline, how does the 7th trumpet sound AFTER the LAST TRUMPET is said to have sounded, are not they one in the same?
Where have I said that the 7th trumpet sounds AFTER the LAST TRUMPET?

They are one and the same...
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
If you state all the chosen ones are resurrected as part of the earlier resurrection almost 4 years before the Last day/1,000 years begins, then what do you have them doing all that time before they begin ruling? The do not begin ruling until the 1,000 years begin, correct?
They assist in bringing the end, during the final 1335 days, as immortal spirit creatures with Christ.

Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

Luke 19:27 Moreover, bring these enemies of mine here who did not want me to become king over them and execute them in front of me.’”

Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

johnamos2.0
Posts: 98
Joined: 1 month ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#59 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

Where have I said that the 7th trumpet sounds AFTER the LAST TRUMPET?
The resurrection to immortal spirit life for the 144k takes place in two stages.
1st, at the opening of the 5th seal, those who had died as part of the 144k up to this time are ressurected.
2nd, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, those who die as part of the 144k between the opening of the 5th seal and the blowing of the 7th trumpet are raised.

You say it based on saying that SOME will be resurrected AT the 5th seal and then you go on to say that the REST will be AT the 7th trumpet. The Scripture states that it is AT the LAST trumpet that the dead will be raised, that would mean that the SOME that you say are raised first, in order for them to be, the LAST trumpet would have had to have sound.

Also, by you saying that there are two different times frames that the first resurrection takes place, you completely ignore the fact that it states that both the dead and living ones of those that will receive the first resurrection happens together at the same time at the last trumpet when Jesus arrives from heaven at his Matt 24:30 coming. It is then that verse 31 states that is when he will have his angels gather together his chosen ones.

[1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, 52 in the twinkling of an eye, ‘at’ the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Matt 24: 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, ‘at the same time’ with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

Kerry Huish
Posts: 410
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: So is there going to be a great tribulation or is there a misunderstanding on what that actually means?

#60 Post by Kerry Huish » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Where have I said that the 7th trumpet sounds AFTER the LAST TRUMPET?
The resurrection to immortal spirit life for the 144k takes place in two stages.
1st, at the opening of the 5th seal, those who had died as part of the 144k up to this time are ressurected.
2nd, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, those who die as part of the 144k between the opening of the 5th seal and the blowing of the 7th trumpet are raised.

You say it based on saying that SOME will be resurrected AT the 5th seal and then you go on to say that the REST will be AT the 7th trumpet. The Scripture states that it is AT the LAST trumpet that the dead will be raised, that would mean that the SOME that you say are raised first, in order for them to be, the LAST trumpet would have had to have sound.
Read post #35 again.
johnamos2.0 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Also, by you saying that there are two different times frames that the first resurrection takes place, you completely ignore the fact that it states that both the dead and living ones of those that will receive the first resurrection happens together at the same time at the last trumpet when Jesus arrives from heaven at his Matt 24:30 coming. It is then that verse 31 states that is when he will have his angels gather together his chosen ones.
Where does it say that the dead and living are raised in Matthew 24:30, where does it say that they are raised at the same time?

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The gathering mentioned in verse 31 is talking about those who are still alive on earth at that time and again harmonises with what is found in Thessalonians.

Part #1
1Thessalonians 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Part #2
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

For a fact, the scriptures do not say that ALL those of the first resurrection class are raised at the same time. It most certainly says its in two batches, unless we start to ignore certain parts...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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